AL Horford+Pape Sy for Rockets 2 Picks, Thabeet & Hill

[Ruhiel]

don't know what the Rockets game plan is they are solid at 1-5 but dobut Hawks could use those picks. Sy and Trade exceptions made salaries match (Horford poison pill).
Rockets get a young proven PF/C and clear a bit of a logjam. Hawks get a 7 footer and [good backup in Jordan Hill] will draft a backup to help replace Jamal along with Williams and more size.
::::::
edit: had to edit because I was going to expand on other trades but realized that Marvin Williams couldn't be traded so instead of Terrence Williams I put [Jordan Hill].

new trade: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3to95gw
Houston gets

Al Horford
Pape Sy

Atlanta gets

Hasheem Thabeet
Jordan Hill
14th pick
23rd pick

[H-town]

sure

[Kal El]

so...

Houston gets

Al Horford
Pape Sy

Atlanta gets

Hasheem Thabeet
Terrence Williams
14th pick
23rd pick

DEAL!!!

[rdehonney]

this is cute and all but why would atlanta do this???? As far as the way it looks from our point of view, I'll take it every day of the week

[Ruhiel]

as to why Atlanta would do this is to match up in the East. Josh Smith is a good player and a top "small" forward at 6'8 but no wing player thats not named Lebron gets traded for a legitimate big man nowadays.
"Smalls" with elite talent/intangibles are much more common than centers with elite intangibles.
Horford's intangibles come from having went to college for 3 years. However he doesn't have the ability to create efficient shots that all elite teams in the past 4 years have had and we need from the PF position.
::::

Al Horford
Pape Sy

Atlanta gets

Hasheem Thabeet
Jordan Hill
14th pick
23rd pick

[zapatasblood]

I think the Rockets should also get a future pick top 5 protected

[Ruhiel]

curious what would next years lineup look like with Horford instead of picks. would u resign Hayes?

[H-town]

Horford / Miller
Chuck / Patrick Patterson
Bud / (T.Williams ?)
Martin / Lee
Lowry / Dragic


now trade Scola, Miller, Bud or Williams for a starting SF and a Backup C

[rdehonney]

Horford / Miller
Chuck / Patrick Patterson
Bud / (T.Williams ?)
Martin / Lee
Lowry / Dragic


now trade Scola, Miller, Bud or Williams for a starting SF and a Backup C

only problem with this would be horford is not a true center(yes he can play the position well) and he's said the same thing mulitple times. I agree we'd have to trade scola so we could move all to the pf and then we'd still be looking for a center. But this is all wishful thinking and atlanta wouldn't do this...

[rdehonney]

as to why Atlanta would do this is to match up in the East. Josh Smith is a good player and a top "small" forward at 6'8 but no wing player thats not named Lebron gets traded for a legitimate big man nowadays.
"Smalls" with elite talent/intangibles are much more common than centers with elite intangibles.
Horford's intangibles come from having went to college for 3 years. However he doesn't have the ability to create efficient shots that all elite teams in the past 4 years have had and we need from the PF position.
::::

Al Horford
Pape Sy

Atlanta gets

Hasheem Thabeet
Jordan Hill
14th pick
23rd pick

Al would be able to create more shots if he played his natural position. On top of that you are basically saying that atl would trade an all-star caliber player and get NOT ONE proven player back. Thabeet=project and thats putting this nicely.. Jordan HIll= same as thabeet and two picks which will most likely be projects especially in this years draft... dumb trade for atl

[Aaron Brooks]

I thought TEs could only be traded by itself?

[x-]

I thought TEs could only be traded by itself?

Yea, but the deal the OP proposed technically is three separate trades, which makes it legal.

[kam_soluusar]

I think that Atlanta could possibly do something like this. Let's face facts, you keep Smith and Johnson, but the rest of the team is pretty expendable. The way they are, they'll make the playoffs, but fail again in the 1st or second round. This is a team in need of somew major re-tooling. I wouldn't be suprised at all to see teams like Atlanta, Orlando, Indiana, to name a few, that will make some major moves once it is clearer what is happening with the lockout.

We need help at C, (Given the uncertainty of Yao!) Miller was never meant to be a starting C, and unlike most here, I thought he did okay. We are spoilt in Houston, because we have had a history of A/S calibre C's. I guess it is almost a matter of identity with the team. I know it's why I became a Houston fan.

If it was offered, (the proposed trade) I'd take it in a heartbeat. It's not like Carl Landry is part of the deal.......

[Ruhiel]

"Al would be able to create more shots if he played his natural position."
u would think but any height advantage he has is mitigated by his average wingspan.

"On top of that you are basically saying that atl would trade an all-star caliber player."
At his natural position Al is not all-star caliber.
"and get NOT ONE proven player back."
Michael Jordan averaged 16ppg in college. He went 3rd. He wasn't proven but he showed good speed, wingspan, technique and ability to gain balance and leverage in the post. 10 FTA per game.

Leslie is Gerald Henderson (also has fair potential) or Tony Allen at worst. D-Wade-esque at best.

"Thabeet=project" he averaged 13 and 11 in college and was benched for Gasol from day one. Kendrick "Baby Shaq" Perkins went from 28, 16 and 8 in high school to 6 ppg, 1 bpg, and 6 rpg in his 5th year. smh.
The problem is people want Thabeet to erase the problems of guards and be Shaq or Yao. We have Josh Smith as a Shawn Marion type SF/PF eraser and Smith can still lose weight to operate and elevate faster in the post.
Motiejunas projects as an inside against smalls outside against big player and pass and dribble and hit the mid-range. He's a taller faster nimbler Toni Kukoc. Hopefully with 7 rbpg like Dirk.
:::::
Thabeet:
We blocked out Dwight Howard using Jason Collins and Pachulia. Asik killed us. Noah killed us.
Noah was a project until he started getting PT and refs started letting him bum rush and throw people around. He couldnt do that against Collins and Pachulia but where Collins hurt us was his foot speed and lack of shot blocking, paint scoring etc.
Bynum for all his accolades is not a nimble scorer and holds averages 11 and 7 and is not a leadin.
Thabeet is a paint finisher nimble shot blocker and more importantly a shot blocker. A taller Kendrick Perkins.
Problem is Rockets don't need a Kendrick Perkins ($11 mil) they need a low post scorer which is why Thabeet doesnt get much opportunity. a faster Kendrick Perkins type 10 and 10 threat who can box out and protect the paint is all we need.
Jason Collins was slower and a worse scorer than Thabeet will ever be and it showed but having another paint presence besides Smith and a low maintenance center that contests and blocks shots into transition with his length is what the Hawks need.
:::::
"What they lack is offensive diversity, rebounding and, as guard Joe Johnson noted, players who are scrappers instead of scorers.

"Blue-collar guys, guys who do a lot of dirty work and do a lot of things that don't show up in the stat book, those are the kind of guys that can help us out," Johnson said. Those kind of players usually contribute to rebounding, defense and overall toughness. They also tend to be low-priced role players, and the Hawks should be able to sign one or more. The Hawks also need players who realize scoring doesn't have to mean shooting jump shots. This season they ranked last in the league in points scored at the basket and next to last in free-throw attempts. After fruitlessly prodding his players all season to attack the basket, Hawks coach Larry Drew acknowledged that changing that tendency might mean adding new personnel.

The problem is he's an 8 and 8. You expect him to break out like Jordan and start
and thats putting this nicely.. Jordan HIll= same as thabeet and two picks which will most likely be projects especially in this years draft... dumb trade for atl

[Ruhiel]

Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith/Donatas Motiejunas/Hasheem Thabeet
Kirk Hinrich/Travis Leslie/Tayshaun Prince*/Jordan Hill/Zaza Pachulia

how many games does this team win?

[Optimism Prime]

Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith/Donatas Motiejunas/Hasheem Thabeet
Kirk Hinrich/Travis Leslie/Tayshaun Prince*/Jordan Hill/Zaza Pachulia

how many games does this team win?

That rotation is horrible. Run Teague-Hinrich-JJ-Smith-Pachulia and it's a lot better. Or Teague-JJ-Prince-Smith-Pachulia.

[Ruhiel]

@optimism Prime
Kirk Hinrich is statistically worse than Keith Bogans. Joe Johnson controls 7% of all rebounds.
Josh Smith grabs 15%.
Hinrich's 10 pts are not enough to take out Thabeet.


Thabeet last year: 0.109 wins shared,
37 yo Jason Kidd 0.116,
Shawn Marion 0.120,
J.J. Barea 0.113

rookie Mutombo: 0.086
rookie Kobe: 0.079

Demarcus: 0.022
Kirk Hinrich: 0.050
Jason Collins: 0.049
Asik: 0.130
Mosgov: .053
Nazr Mohammed career: .107
rookie Jason Collins: .104
Tyson Chandler 1st 2 years: .062, .102
Dalembert career: .111
36 yo Marcus Camby: 0.116

Rondo career: 0.064
......

Prince I can understand but if I told you I would take any of those guys out for a 30 yo Kirk Hinrich you would call me insane.
Thabeet may never improve but people need to grow up on Thabeet he's not a great shooter and may never be.
Watch what Tyson Chandler does and Joel Anthony and highlights of Mosgov or Asik.
Thabeet gets disrespected cuz at 7'3 he makes it look easy and disinterested.
Also he was the #2 pick is expected to score, imagine the shift if Asik was #2.
Griffin affected 15% of the basketball game when he was on the floor Thabeet 11%.
Milicic affects 4% of all plays last year and he's "mana from heaven" he gets the rock more this year and he's at 1%. Thabeet is literally 10x better than a starter in the NBA.
Lamarcus Aldridge affects 0.166 or 17% of all plays in the regular season.
In the playoffs his scoring shrinks and he has 0.062 Wins Shared. That's 6%. He plays 43 minutes and is so slow that he's 7'0 and only has 4 rebounds in an elimination game but all we here is 20 points he's an All Star that's unfair.


If anyone thinks a 7'3 athletic guy with near Shaq's wingspan and can defend the pick and roll and blocks shots can't affect the game then i don't know what to tell u guys.

In the end he's more effective than a lot of guys. when someone shoots and bricks=negative.
Thabeet can get 10 boards and 10 pts on 5 and 5.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGhLSxiYxbs[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z4gUkD2nDw[/youtube]
Kirk Hinrich's "offense"and "defense" on Dwyane Wade/Derrick Rose is not the same as it is on Jameer Nelson and the rebounding % shift kills this team.
Collins had 1 pts 6 fouls and 0 rebounds and we won. we're losing Jamal Crawford
We trade Horford and draft Leslie and Motiejunas with Thabeet and Hill...
Hawks are easily the deepest team in the NBA.

[Ruhiel]

is there a flaw I'm not seeing here? why no response

I believe some teams with guys who draw defense can use Thabeet. its just lots of teams are looking for scoring but when you look deeper into the stats you see not amuch development or a superstar but an elite role player.

[Optimism Prime]

@optimism Prime
Kirk Hinrich is statistically worse than Keith Bogans. Joe Johnson controls 7% of all rebounds.
Josh Smith grabs 15%.
Hinrich's 10 pts are not enough to take out Thabeet.


Thabeet last year: 0.109 wins shared,
37 yo Jason Kidd 0.116,
Shawn Marion 0.120,
J.J. Barea 0.113

rookie Mutombo: 0.086
rookie Kobe: 0.079

Demarcus: 0.022
Kirk Hinrich: 0.050
Jason Collins: 0.049
Asik: 0.130
Mosgov: .053
Nazr Mohammed career: .107
rookie Jason Collins: .104
Tyson Chandler 1st 2 years: .062, .102
Dalembert career: .111
36 yo Marcus Camby: 0.116

Rondo career: 0.064
......

Prince I can understand but if I told you I would take any of those guys out for a 30 yo Kirk Hinrich you would call me insane.
Thabeet may never improve but people need to grow up on Thabeet he's not a great shooter and may never be.
Watch what Tyson Chandler does and Joel Anthony and highlights of Mosgov or Asik.
Thabeet gets disrespected cuz at 7'3 he makes it look easy and disinterested.
Also he was the #2 pick is expected to score, imagine the shift if Asik was #2.
Griffin affected 15% of the basketball game when he was on the floor Thabeet 11%.
Milicic affects 4% of all plays last year and he's "mana from heaven" he gets the rock more this year and he's at 1%. Thabeet is literally 10x better than a starter in the NBA.
Lamarcus Aldridge affects 0.166 or 17% of all plays in the regular season.
In the playoffs his scoring shrinks and he has 0.062 Wins Shared. That's 6%. He plays 43 minutes and is so slow that he's 7'0 and only has 4 rebounds in an elimination game but all we here is 20 points he's an All Star that's unfair.


If anyone thinks a 7'3 athletic guy with near Shaq's wingspan and can defend the pick and roll and blocks shots can't affect the game then i don't know what to tell u guys.

In the end he's more effective than a lot of guys. when someone shoots and bricks=negative.
Thabeet can get 10 boards and 10 pts on 5 and 5.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGhLSxiYxbs[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z4gUkD2nDw[/youtube]
Kirk Hinrich's "offense"and "defense" on Dwyane Wade/Derrick Rose is not the same as it is on Jameer Nelson and the rebounding % shift kills this team.
Collins had 1 pts 6 fouls and 0 rebounds and we won. we're losing Jamal Crawford
We trade Horford and draft Leslie and Motiejunas with Thabeet and Hill...
Hawks are easily the deepest team in the NBA.

Win shares aren't everything, but since you seem to love them so much, I'll focus on them in this post. And it's convenient that you use Thabeet's rookie numbers while ignoring the most recent stats from him--he posted a whopping 0.045 WS/48 last year, and -0.179 during his tenure in Houston. That's right--in his time here, he was a net negative. We hope it gets better. His PER from rookie to sophomore year went from 12.9 (below average) to 4.7 (abysmal).

Also no idea what you're talking about with affecting a certain percentage of plays. Usage rate? Rebound rate? WS/48? If so, I don't think it means what you think it does.

As far as Hinrich v. Bogans, yes, Bogans posted a higher WS/48; that happens when you're playing on the best team in the league as opposed to the Wizards. This isn't a surprise. Surprisingly, you're falling into the opposite viewpoint of what you did with Thabeet, you're just focusing on the most recent numbers. Hinrich in the past has been a stellar defender (4.7 and 4.6 DWS in '05 and '07, all-defensive second team in 07, while Bogan's career high for TOTAL win shares is 4.9... Translation, Hinrich affects the game as much with his defense alone as Bogans does overall.) For their careers, Hinrich has a higher ORTG and a lower DRTG than Bogans.

So yeah, I stand by my claim that I'd rather have Hinrich out there as a wing stopper and secondary ballhander than I would start Thabeet and Motiejunas. Any questions?

[moofs]

I freaking hate win shares.

Not cause I think they're wrong, mind you. It's because I don't know what they are, don't know how BR calculates them, haven't really evaluated their algorithm in-depth, and always get them confused with WP/WP48 (which also annoys me from time to time since there's no great single source for it, and it tends to vary significantly based on who calculates it... and this from a guy that thinks WP is by far the best catch-all stat out there).