Prime Kobe vs. LeBron

[Shamizy]

For starters, that had a lot to do with Mike Brown bringing a defense-first mentality to the organization. Prior to him arriving (under Silas), the Cavs were a horrible defensive team. It wasn't until Mike Brown showed up that they transitioned to being a good defensive team.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this isn't entirely true.

'05-06: Opp PTS/G: 95.4 (10th of 30), Def Rtg: 105.4 (14th of 30), Pace: 89.8 (19th of 30)

'04-05: Opp PTS/G: 95.7 (11th of 30), Def Rtg: 105.7 (12th of 30), Pace: 89.7 (19th of 30)

In Silas' last year and Mike Brown's first year, the Cavs were virtually identical on the defensive end.

[Father Time]

would kobe be way better idk. do i think he was better? yes. kobe put up basically 30/7/6 in the triangle in 2003 i think. if he were given the freedom to dominate the ball like lebron there is no doubt in my mind he would have out of this word stats. it is what it is though.

Here are Kobe's stats without Shaq from 01-03, noting that what was left after Shaq was quite a miserable lineup and an offense that still wasn't properly centered around Kobe:

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YEAR   GP   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV
=========================================================
00-01  8    31.9  .540  7.8   3.9   1.4   1.5   3.8
01-02  15   28.4  .519  6.3   6.3   1.2   0.5   2.9
02-03  15   32.3  .521  8.3   5.8   2.1   1.0   3.5

What stands out the most here is that Kobe's rebounding absolutely sky-rocketed, while his efficiency (TS%) kind of went south a little -- noting that league avg TS% was .517, .520, and .519 respectively in those years. From a statistical standpoint, it's quite obvious that Kobe could have made himself look a lot better under a different set of circumstances, much like LeBron's stats would look a lot better if he weren't on the Heat. That's why you have to look at it from all angles and ask yourself how a player impacts the game outside of just raw numbers.

Is LeBron's rebounding more impactful than Kobe's given that Kobe has always had dominant rebounders (Shaq, Odom, Pau, Bynum)? Does it make him better because he plays in a situation and in a position where he has more available? Rebounding is a wash given the circumstances, but I actually consider Kobe the superior positional rebounder.

In terms of passing, well, LeBron is the better passer. He has better court vision as a result of his size/physical advantages, and I think he's just more skilled as a passer. Is he a better play-maker though (utilizing his skills effectively)? Well, if he is, I don't think it's by all that much. LeBron gets most of his assists in transition or from driving/dishing to open shooters, which to me doesn't give him any kind of real advantage given how much he has the ball compared to Kobe, in addition to the system Kobe plays in which doesn't lend itself to high assist numbers. Still, this is probably an advantage for LeBron. He's better at creating plays when going full steam to the basket (which Kobe did more of back then), but I do think that Kobe was a superior play-maker from the post.

In terms of scoring, I think it's pretty easily Kobe. When you can hit from so many different angles, as well as being able to play in the post, it just makes you a tougher player to defend. His ability to get to the basket was really no different than LeBron's currently, except that back then wing players weren't escorted to the basket and given the benefit of the doubt quite as much. You had to work for ****. We kind of saw what Kobe was capable of from 05-06 and 06-07 after the rule changes started really taking effect, and I'm quite confident that he could have had similar production in the early 00's given a similar situation.

What about Kobe's ability to play off the ball? It's always been superior to LeBron's, to a point that it's not even worth discussing.

Defense? LeBron is the better help defender, no question about it, but early Kobe was a lockdown man defender and great at disrupting the opponents flow by hawking ball handlers from baseline to baseline. He was consistently elite, which is not something that you can say for LeBron the past few years. People might like them some fast break steals or weakside blocks, but for my money I want a guy that can make his man disappear and/or effectively disrupt the offense, as well as covering multiple positions (with Kobe's added size/strength in 2001, he negated his only weakness which was effectively defending bigger post players). When LeBron starts shutting down the opposing teams play-maker/scorer on a regular basis, then maybe we'll talk, but until that time Kobe takes it on the defensive end. Remember last year when LeBron told us he was going to shut down Rondo? Case closed. He had no idea how to effectively play him.

Ability to close? From 2001 to 2003 Kobe was a beast down the stretch (which is when he earned his reputation as one of the greatest closers ever), especially in the playoffs:

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Year   Age   G    MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV   OPP WIN%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2003   24    5    4.7   5.4   .586  1.0   0.2   0.0   0.0   0.4   .677
2002   23    13   4.1   4.3   .641  0.5   0.7   0.1   0.1   0.1   .671
2001   22    4    4.7   2.8   .619  0.8   0.8   0.3   0.3   0.3   .668

He was doing this against teams like San Antonio, Portland, Sacramento, etc. All teams that had good/great team defense, size in the middle, and veteran savvy wing defenders (Pippen, Kidd, Christie, etc.). Now LeBron has been really good in crunch time the past few years as well, but the difference in competition and strength of defense favors Kobe by a large margin.

As to why I think 2001-2003 were Kobe's best years, it's because he had no weaknesses in his game. He was elite on both ends of the floor. He was a better scorer from 05-06 to 07-08 (better post player), but not by a whole lot. His defense was too good from 01-03 to make up for any advantage on offense that prime Kobe #2 had.

This x 1000000000000

Also I think it's funny when people say Kobe could never fill the box score like LeBron. In 2002-03 Kobe was putting up 30 point triple doubles much like LeBron was in 08-09.

[KB24TBOTB]

lebron fan with my take on the arguement. First of all luxury you attempt to compare apples to apples. Let's divide the conversation into 3 categories statistics and productivity, team accomplishments and all around play!

If we look at what Lebron has had to work with lets do this trade the two and see what Kobe would have done. No coach has written that Lebron is uncoachable nor has any player questioned or criticized him because Lebron truly makes players better! The best example is heat was 1st round losers the last few years and now in the finals and the cavaliers have been 60 game winners but now low lottery picks. Mo williams was an all-star because of Lebron's passing. Lebron took a team of Illgauskus, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, and Pavlovic to the NBA finals. while Kobe was losing in the first round with Lamar Odom on his team.

Stats every milestone in scoring that Kobe reached Lebron has passed with better shooting percentage while setting up teammates. Kobe played for a hall of fame coach and with a hall of fame center as well as great role players Horry, Rick Fox, Glen Rice, and Derek Fisher. Lebron averaged 8.6 assists last year a forward record and he has rebounded over 7 year after year. He has proven the clutch performer myth wrong with this year and with how he has carried a team without an all star deep into the playoffs every year since 2007. Defensively Kobe is top five one on one defender of all time but when we look at how Lebron has handled Derrick Rose the truth is Lebron could wind up being the best of all time. His size and speed is a nightmare and now he is with a superstar. The NBA is shivering.

Finally, Lebron entered the league under pressure. He has more than stepped up averaging over 20 per game his entire career.

From 60 wins to bust? That's kind of what happens when a team is completely built around a player instead of an actual system. The same collapse would have happened to the Sixers minus Iverson in '01, or the Rockets minues Olajuwon in the 90s. Stats? Better shooting %'s? Of course LeBron is going to have a higher %. Before actually developing a jumper in the last two years, he relied on bulling his way to the basket for layups. It's a fact that the closer your attempts are to the basket, the higher your shooting % will be. That's why big men shoot such a damn high %.

I'm not denying how great LeBron is, because he's a damn good player, but those 8.6 apg should be expected considering how often he has the ball in his hands. He's essentially been point-forward his whole career, with the ball in his hand most of the time and creating for everyone else.

As far as defense, I have to completely disagree. LeBron has always been an elite help defender (due mostly to his physical gifts), but has always been an average one-on-one defender. Guarding Derrick Rose? With his speed/power/athleticism AND the half-foot advantage, he should be giving Derrick Rose trouble. However, have you considered the dropoff in play that will occur once LeBron's physical talents begin to diminish? Kobe's gone from a lockdown perimeter defender to a guy that coasts on defense. LeBron, despite his physical gifts, has NEVER been a lockdown defender. Ever. He's always been an average man defender. Once his speed begins to diminish and he can't jump as high anymore, be prepared for a considerable dropoff in play.

Unless of course he completely develops his fundamentals and all around game, but I'm not holding my breath. It took him about 7 years to finally get something that resembles a consistent jumper.

Well said Shamizy.

[semi-sentient]

In Silas' last year and Mike Brown's first year, the Cavs were virtually identical on the defensive end.

True, but I did say they transitioned. I don't think you can take a bad defensive team and turn them into a great defensive team overnight, and LeBron didn't really start picking it up defensively until around the 07-08 season IIRC. Those early teams were also going through some changes so once the roster stabilized they developed chemistry and became a very good defensive team. Perhaps Silas just didn't have enough time with them because he's certainly coached some good defensive teams in the past, but Mike Brown is a defense-first coach and in 3 of his 5 years they were a top 7 defense. I think he deserves a bit more credit than others are giving him.

[picc]

Great posts by many, just want to add that I don't think 2006-present Kobe was any more skilled than he was in 2002-2003. And if so, it is marginal. He had a fantastic post-game back then, and not only that, but he was able to execute more moves from the post because he still had all of his athleticism.

He was about as good a jumpshooter as he's ever been. With as much range as he's had since.

He was a better playmaker because speed and athleticism allowed him to break down defenses better.

He was a better defender than all but maybe his 2000 iteration.

IMO Kobe has never been as good as he was in 2003, considering both skill and athletics. Maybe 2005 before his injuries started to pile up.

The only difference between 2006 Bryant and 2003 Bryant was reduced athleticism and carte blanche to shoot as much as he wanted with no consequence. As far as pure basketball playing ability 35ppg Kobe was a diminished player from 3 years prior.

His prime imo was 2001-2008.

Peak, 2003-2006.

In the summer of 06 he had the knee surgery and it had a very noticeable effect on his athletic ability the next season and going forward. The same way his athletics declined after he had the surgery in summer 03. And after the surgery last summer going into this season. It happens. And it negatively affects your game, one way or another.