2011-12 Toronto Raptors Trade Ideas Thread Pt II

[miruss2001]

For all the remaining Bargs fans, go on the general trade board and see how no one wants anything to do with him. 21 ppg scorers are rare in this league, so just take in how bad he is defensively.

I think it has less to do with his defense and more to do with his rebounding and style of play on offense.

His style of play on offense is fine. He is quite a good offensive player, and 21 ppg on a decent percentage is acceptable. Yes teams don`t want him because he can`t rebound, but his biggest flaw is having just about nil basketball iq on the defensive end.

I think the point of Consequence's post was not to suggest that he can't score. But that the means of how he scores often leads to issues (i.e. A 7ft guy shooting threes means there isn't a 7ft player in position to rebound. This leads to rebounding deficits). So yes, there is something of an issue with his "style" of offensive play. You just need to consider it from another lens.

That being said most players can be nitpicked on.

Still, it is true. There are very few, if any, fanbases on here who want anything at all to do with him. Though I would have to suggest the length and cost of his contract is a large factor in that sentiment as well.

[Consequence]

Yes, thanks miruss. While you're right, witnessraps, that other fans hate on his defense, his straight man D isn't bad, and the argument is that his weakness on D can be hidden beside a strong paint defender/communicator. Some other fans see that, some do not. The idea of a defensively flawed big man who is a good scorer isn't new, and shouldn't kill his value to the level that it seems to have reached among other teams' fans on this site. What kills his value, and there is less rebuttal to turn to, is his lack of rebounding and tendency to play offense from the perimeter. Most other offensively talented, defensively challenged bigs have been at least capable in one of those areas. Many fans are traditionalists and will simply reject the idea of a 7-footer scoring the way that Bargs does.

[sweetcity]

Raps Receive

Mike Beasley
#2 2011
Hassan Whiteside
N Perkovic
F Garcia

T Wolves Get

#7 2011
Calderon
Bargnani
Cassipi

Kings Get

Wesley Johnson
Amir Johnson
Luke Ridnour
$6.2 Mill in Trade Exceprions

Raps

#2 Kyrie Irving - Bayless
Demar DeRozen - Garcia
Mike Beasley - James Johnson
Ed Davis - Hassan Whiteside Linas Kleiza
#5 Kanter - Nikola Perkovic

Thats a sick team

[KingstonRaptors]

I don't normally post trades but I'd like this to happen...pipe dream of course. 2 separate trades.

Toronto Receives:
Martell Webster
Nikola Pekovic
#2 pick

Minnesota Receives:
Jose Calderon
Solomon Alabi
#5 pick

Toronto Receives:
Jonny Flynn

Minnesota Receives:
Part of the remaining $9mil TPE

Toronto's Lineup (2011/2012)

Bayless/Flynn
Derozan/Webster/Barbosa
D.Williams(#2)/J.Johnson/Kleiza
Davis/A.Johnson
Bargs/Pekovic

That's a young team to build on. Jose can go to Minnesota to mentor Rubio. We take Flynn off their hands. They already have Wesley Johnson at the 3 (and Beasley), and could use another big (which they can still draft with the 5th pick - Boyimbo, Kanter, or Valanciunas). We secure one of the top two players in this draft and secure the 3 spot for the future. D. Will. (3pt shooter) and DeMar (mid-range game) can be a good paring. I'm still hoping we can get something of value for Bargs that we can turn into a legit defensive centre.

[witnessraps]

Yes, thanks miruss. While you're right, witnessraps, that other fans hate on his defense, his straight man D isn't bad, and the argument is that his weakness on D can be hidden beside a strong paint defender/communicator. Some other fans see that, some do not. The idea of a defensively flawed big man who is a good scorer isn't new, and shouldn't kill his value to the level that it seems to have reached among other teams' fans on this site. What kills his value, and there is less rebuttal to turn to, is his lack of rebounding and tendency to play offense from the perimeter. Most other offensively talented, defensively challenged bigs have been at least capable in one of those areas. Many fans are traditionalists and will simply reject the idea of a 7-footer scoring the way that Bargs does.

I don't know, you're arguing that other teams won't want him because of the way he scores, but there's nothing wrong with the way he scores. He can hit threes, has a very nice dribble-pull up from midrange, can take it to the hole off the dribble, has a great pump fake, and he can post up too which he didn't do enough but will certainly more.

Forget about one-on-one help defense for a second. We all know he's decent at that. It's about the weakside help defense, the pick and roll defense, basically any TEAM defense where Bargnani is just too slow to react EVERY time. Have you not seen countless times this season where perimeter players drive through the lane and Bargs just stands there...he just refuses to get in the way and do something about it. The "Get Bargs a center" argument is overrated. You still need 2 big men to rebound and play help defense, not one. And I'm not ready to give up one of Amir Johnson or Ed Davis just so we can have Andrea play with a real center.

Once again, I want to throw it out there one more time how I think it's quite funny that you think people won't want Bargs because of his offense, rather than his defense.

[Strategist1]

Amir, Bayless to Sacramento for #7 draft selection, Dalembert sign'n'trade
Raps draft Knight at #5 and at #7 either pick Biyombo/Leonard
Sac needs a big man and a pg... Raps need a C and young assets.

Raps get Dalembert, Knight... and one of Biyombo/Leonard
and give up Amir/Baylesss to do so.

This trade assumes BC wants to keep Andrea and let him play as the starting PF.

[Rapsfan07]

Amir, Bayless to Sacramento for #7 draft selection, Dalembert sign'n'trade
Raps draft Knight at #5 and at #7 either pick Biyombo/Leonard
Sac needs a big man and a pg... Raps need a C and young assets.

Raps get Dalembert, Knight... and one of Biyombo/Leonard
and give up Amir/Baylesss to do so.

This trade assumes BC wants to keep Andrea and let him play as the starting PF.

I personally wouldn't be interested in this for a few reasons:

1. Dalembert won't need to be signed and traded since he is a UFA.
2. If if he is signed and traded, I'd do it straight - Amir for Dalembert.
3. I'm not convinced that Knight will better than Bayless, if that good at all. Where the pick is concern, I hop BC is looking to either move up, or move out.

After the top 2 picks you have a Euro center who looks to score and has three point ability, another Euro C who has the height but needs to add the weight and a pint-size electrifying PG. I believe I have good reason to be wary of Euroleague big men and resemblance between Walker and Flynn is too close for comfort. I'd be fine with BC moving the pick and bringing in either a future pick or NBA proven young talent

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

heres my favorite off-season. Im assuming Knight is gone before we pick, thats the only way i do it.

To Toronto: Brandon Jennings + Corey Maggette + Larry Sanders
To Milwaukee: Jose Calderon + Leandro Barbosa + Rights to #5 (Kemba Walker)

Raptors get a PG best friends with Derozan and a potential solid defensive C. He has potential, is athletic, plays good defense already and blocks shots & already loves Toronto

Bucks get their top 5 pick, added scoring with Barbosa since their one of the worst offensive teams in the league.

Next: Immediately ship out Maggette

To Toronto: Matt Carroll + Desagana Diop + POR 2013 1st Round Pick
To Charlotte: Corey Maggette + TOR 2012 2nd Round Pick

Raptors get a future 1st to use as an asset, both players coming in are useless and expire the same time as Maggette except dont really do anything. Carroll adds 3 point shooting (BC talked about it) Diop is a veteran C (BC talked about this too) and a big body to throw out there.

Bobcats get better right now, trade their 2 worst contracts in order to grab a starting SF. They take the 2nd in the deep draft and get their youth that way. The difference from a 1st to 2nd is made up from the talent from Maggette - Diop + Carroll
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Free Agency:
- Sign veteran PG (Ronnie Price?)
- Sign SG (Reggie Williams, 40+% from 3 this year, good shooter, young can fill some needs)

- Allow Bayless to be 6th man.

Brandon Jennings / Jerryd Bayless / Ronnie Price
Demar Derozan / Reggie Williams / Matt Carroll
James Johnson / Linas Klezia
Ed Davis / Amir Johnson / Desagana Diop
Andrea Bargnani / Larry Sanders / Solomon Alabi

pretty nice young team IMO. You fix all the problems, you get better defensively (Jennings is above average according to MIL fans, Sanders also plays good D and blocks shots just needs to add muscle), fix 3 point shooting with guys off the bench. Build with the young team.

in 2012/2013 you draft a SF like Micheal Gilchrist/Harrison Barnes/Quincy Miller and youd have young players everywhere. You hope Sanders can add muscle and play the C effectively. For comparison sake lets compare him to Kanter who everyone wants as our future C.

Jennings / Bayless
Derozan / Williams
Gilchrist / Johnson
Davis / Amir
Bargnani / Sanders

Sanders:
- 6'11 with shoes
- 7' 5.75" wingspan
- 9' 4" standing reach
- 222 pounds (4.6% body fat %)
- 28' Max Vert

Kanter:
- 6'11 with shoes
- 7' 1.5" wingspan
- 9' 1.5" standing reach
- 259 (5.9% body fat %)
- 32 ' Max vert

Obviously Kanter is bigger weight wise but Sanders has a longer standing reach, longer wingspan and lower body fat %. If he can put on 15-20 pounds this off-season then he will be a solid C for us IMO.

I think a variation of this trade involving those teams is possible. Personally, I think we'd rather have 5 and 10 over Jennings and Sanders, so instead I'd offer a counter proposal, and make it a 3-way trade where Jennings heads to Charlotte, Bobcats surrender their pick(s) to MIL, and Jose Calderon ends up in MIL as well. RO7, I don't know how to conjure up such a deal, but I think the principles would include both of CHA's picks (#9 & #19) going to MIL, along with Calderon, 10 and Diop or some fillers coming to us, and CHA landing Jennings and Maggette, while getting rid of Diop and/or Carroll, Najera.

Something like that could also work.

[Consequence]

Yes, thanks miruss. While you're right, witnessraps, that other fans hate on his defense, his straight man D isn't bad, and the argument is that his weakness on D can be hidden beside a strong paint defender/communicator. Some other fans see that, some do not. The idea of a defensively flawed big man who is a good scorer isn't new, and shouldn't kill his value to the level that it seems to have reached among other teams' fans on this site. What kills his value, and there is less rebuttal to turn to, is his lack of rebounding and tendency to play offense from the perimeter. Most other offensively talented, defensively challenged bigs have been at least capable in one of those areas. Many fans are traditionalists and will simply reject the idea of a 7-footer scoring the way that Bargs does.

I don't know, you're arguing that other teams won't want him because of the way he scores, but there's nothing wrong with the way he scores. He can hit threes, has a very nice dribble-pull up from midrange, can take it to the hole off the dribble, has a great pump fake, and he can post up too which he didn't do enough but will certainly more.

Forget about one-on-one help defense for a second. We all know he's decent at that. It's about the weakside help defense, the pick and roll defense, basically any TEAM defense where Bargnani is just too slow to react EVERY time. Have you not seen countless times this season where perimeter players drive through the lane and Bargs just stands there...he just refuses to get in the way and do something about it. The "Get Bargs a center" argument is overrated. You still need 2 big men to rebound and play help defense, not one. And I'm not ready to give up one of Amir Johnson or Ed Davis just so we can have Andrea play with a real center.

Once again, I want to throw it out there one more time how I think it's quite funny that you think people won't want Bargs because of his offense, rather than his defense.

I'm not saying that other team's are fine with his defense. I said that his rebounding and style of play on offense are what sets his value so low. You ignored that I stated that his rebounding is a major issue, which is fine, I suppose, since that's a given. His value as an offensive asset is diminished by the way that he scores, and since his scoring is really the only thing going for him, it is the final factor in other teams' view of him.

My assumption during this whole argument is that we're attempting to find a team for Bargs with a defensive C in place, since that is the case with most of the trades being proposed on the trade board. And yes, a team with Bargnani and a strong defensive would probably be less effective on the boards and D than pretty much any other combination of frontcourt players, but on a team with a good defensive mentality, the net result of having Bargnani's scoring abilities and defensive liabilities as opposed to an all-around average big man could be in that offensively lacking team's favour. You watched teams like Milwaukee and Charlotte this year. There were times where they just couldn't score for long stretches of the game. They could probably use an offensively talented big man, right?

This is where my point comes in. There seems to be a fit, but scores of other fans reject trade ideas because they just don't like the way that Bargnani scores. They see him as inefficient for a big man, causing spacing difficulties within their established offense, reluctant to pass, and not particularly effective in clutch situations. These are real issues, along with his rebounding on both ends, that differentiate Bargnani from pretty much every other historical precedent of a scoring big man that can't play defense. It makes other teams' fans decide that Bargnani isn't the solution for them.

[Ducksplatt]

if cavs somehow go with williams, what r u willin to throw at minny for irving?

Outside of DD and Ed, anything they want plus the #5. Would also take on one of their longer term contracts if need be (ie Darko, Pek, Webster).

[Rapsobsessed7]

combining a few ideas/rumors.

To Toronto: Jonny Flynn + Andre Miller (waived) + Nicolas Batum
To Portland: Luke Ridnour + Linas Kleiza + Rights to #5 (Kemba Walker)
To Minnesota: Jose Calderon

Break down:

Portland Sends: Andre Miller + Nicolas Batum
Minnesota Sends: Jonny Flynn + Luke Ridnour
Toronto Sends: Jose Calderon + Linas Kleiza + #5 (Kemba Walker)

Raptors get a young PG in Flynn, cut Calderons contract entirely essentially.

Portland basically gets a backup SF in Klezia for Wallace, a young PG to grow with the core for Batum and Ridnour whos a steady vet backup that can help mentor Kemba.

Minny gets Rubios spanish teammate and someone that can make it comfortable for him in the NBA.

Bayless / Flynn
Derozan / Barbosa
Batum / Johnson
Davis / Amir
Bargnani / Jordan* / Alabi

* Would open up about a ton of cap space. Roughly and i mean very roughly we would be at 38 million in committed salaries. So we could really offer a huge deal to Jordan if we wanted but next year Batum will be up for an extension (part of the reason i see POR trading him) but is there enough minutes for that rotation to work?

[KingstonRaptors]

combining a few ideas/rumors.

To Toronto: Jonny Flynn + Andre Miller (waived) + Nicolas Batum
To Portland: Luke Ridnour + Linas Klezia + Rights to #5 (Kemba Walker)
To Minnesota: Jose Calderon

Break down:

Portland Sends: Andre Miller + Nicolas Batum
Minnesota Sends: Jonny Flynn + Luke Ridnour
Toronto Sends: Jose Calderon + Linas Klezia + #5 (Kemba Walker)

Raptors get a young PG in Flynn, cut Calderons contract entirely essentially.

Portland basically gets a backup SF in Klezia for Wallace, a young PG to grow with the core for Batum and Ridnour whos a steady vet backup that can help mentor Kemba.

Minny gets Rubios spanish teammate and someone that can make it comfortable for him in the NBA.

Bayless / Flynn
Derozan / Barbosa
Batum / Johnson
Davis / Amir
Bargnani / Jordan* / Alabi

* Would open up about a ton of cap space. Roughly and i mean very roughly we would be at 38 million in committed salaries. So we could really offer a huge deal to Jordan if we wanted but next year Batum will be up for an extension (part of the reason i see POR trading him) but is there enough minutes for that rotation to work?

That's too good to be true. To get rid of both Jose and Linas' contract while getting a good two way player in Batum for the 5th pick? Where do I sign up?

[Rapsobsessed7]

the thing with Batum though is hes up for a big extension regardless. So your going to have to pay for the asset you just acquired while Portland gets a young PG on a rookie scale contract for a while. So that factors into my trade.

Walker / Ridnour
Roy / Matthews / Fernandez
Wallace / Klezia
Aldridge / #21
Camby / Oden / FA (signed for insurance)

is not a bad lineup for next year.

[elmer_yuck]

the thing with Batum though is hes up for a big extension regardless. So your going to have to pay for the asset you just acquired while Portland gets a young PG on a rookie scale contract for a while. So that factors into my trade.

Walker / Ridnour
Roy / Matthews / Fernandez
Wallace / Klezia
Aldridge / #21
Camby / Oden / FA (signed for insurance)

is not a bad lineup for next year.

Who is Klezia?

[Rapsobsessed7]

the thing with Batum though is hes up for a big extension regardless. So your going to have to pay for the asset you just acquired while Portland gets a young PG on a rookie scale contract for a while. So that factors into my trade.

Walker / Ridnour
Roy / Matthews / Fernandez
Wallace / Klezia
Aldridge / #21
Camby / Oden / FA (signed for insurance)

is not a bad lineup for next year.

Who is Klezia?

are you actually going to be a **** because i put the "i" after the "z" when it should be before. Honestly have you really gotten to that point? Pathetic.

[elmer_yuck]

the thing with Batum though is hes up for a big extension regardless. So your going to have to pay for the asset you just acquired while Portland gets a young PG on a rookie scale contract for a while. So that factors into my trade.

Walker / Ridnour
Roy / Matthews / Fernandez
Wallace / Klezia
Aldridge / #21
Camby / Oden / FA (signed for insurance)

is not a bad lineup for next year.

Who is Klezia?

are you actually going to be a **** because i put the "i" after the "z" when it should be before. Honestly have you really gotten to that point? Pathetic.

You're obsessed with the Raptors, you propose 500 trades per day, half of them with Kleiza.
Why not just spell his name correctly.

[itbobby007]

Lets keep the bickering to a minimum gents.

[Indeed]

combining a few ideas/rumors.

To Toronto: Jonny Flynn + Andre Miller (waived) + Nicolas Batum
To Portland: Luke Ridnour + Linas Kleiza + Rights to #5 (Kemba Walker)
To Minnesota: Jose Calderon

Break down:

Portland Sends: Andre Miller + Nicolas Batum
Minnesota Sends: Jonny Flynn + Luke Ridnour
Toronto Sends: Jose Calderon + Linas Kleiza + #5 (Kemba Walker)

Raptors get a young PG in Flynn, cut Calderons contract entirely essentially.

Portland basically gets a backup SF in Klezia for Wallace, a young PG to grow with the core for Batum and Ridnour whos a steady vet backup that can help mentor Kemba.

Minny gets Rubios spanish teammate and someone that can make it comfortable for him in the NBA.

Bayless / Flynn
Derozan / Barbosa
Batum / Johnson
Davis / Amir
Bargnani / Jordan* / Alabi

* Would open up about a ton of cap space. Roughly and i mean very roughly we would be at 38 million in committed salaries. So we could really offer a huge deal to Jordan if we wanted but next year Batum will be up for an extension (part of the reason i see POR trading him) but is there enough minutes for that rotation to work?

I don't think Minny likes that trade. Who are they getting back? Calderon?
To Toronto: Flynn + Rights to #2 (Kanter) - get Flynn and Kanter
To Portland: Barbosa + Kleiza + Rights to #5 (Kemba Walker) - get Barbosa and Walker
To Minnesota: Andre Miller + Nicolas Batum - get vet PG and capable starter in Batum

[IntricateOh25]

Are there any teams in the 8-12 range that would trade their pick for Bayless and/or Bargnani?

[witnessraps]

Are there any teams in the 8-12 range that would trade their pick for Bayless and/or Bargnani?

Sactown, Detroit, Charlotte, Milwaukee, maybe Utah with number 12 to pair Bargs with Favors and Jefferson or Millsap.

I really don't know what his value is. It could be super high or super low. Judging by from what I've heard from BC, I think his value is quite high.

I think one of the quotes that was glaring to me that we are looking to trade Bargs: "We know he has weaknesses but he's still a huge talent in this league"...or something like that. So perhaps other teams still see him as a major "talent".