Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread Part 9

[turner10]

DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
Colangelo did say he's "definitely exploring acquiring another top-10 pick," but maintains that DeRozan "won't be part of any package."

DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
Tomorrow Toronto, Washington, Utah and Detroit will travel to Vitoria, Spain to meet and watch Bismack Biyombo in a private workout.

DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
Bryan Colangelo is in Belgrade right now watching Jan Vesely in the Serbian league finals. Also in attendance: Utah and Washington.

[T_Biggums]

Some of you have absolutly no idea of how to judge a prospect. Reading some of the posts you'd think Kanter was a 30 year old vet.

FFS, he's 19 years old, with prospects you have to think about development and how he'll do down the road.

Sure, he looked bad defensively in those clips but how much are you really going to take out of 4 HS games from 2 years ago? He's working with Tim Grover (6 weeks) and that's definitely going to help and then we'll put him in an NBA developmental program.

The 4 questions that need to be asked:

1) Does he have the size / length to be a good defender? Check
2) Does he have the athleticism to be a good defender? Check
3) Does he have the IQ to be a good defender? TBD - His IQ seems to be high on offense and with rebounding so the hope is that he's not a lost cause on defense.
4) Does he have the mentality to become a good defender? TBD - Has a high motor but that doesn't really say whether he wants to be a good defender.

Nobody in this draft is perfect and very few will have much of an impact right out of the gates. You want to project what they'll do down the road. We need to apply the same logic in this situation.

From my understanding, teams have also seen him play in Turkey, as both a U18 and a pro, and while scouts couldn't talk to him in prep school, there was nothing stopping them from attending his games. He's also had a full season of working with the Kentucky coaching staff, which isn't game-worthy time to be sure, but certainly can help accelerate skills development, like footwork in the post, shot mechanics. He's apparently healthy and in very good shape. I'd take prep film with a grain of salt, just as I wouldn't base an entire assessment by one all-star game where he tore up the competition.

@ reignman - get off the high horse there are certainly a lot of red flags when considering what it is Kanter has that makes him an intriguing selection. Kelly said it himself there is NO evidence that he can effectively play the 5

1) being big doesn't mean you have a centre's mentality
2) Is Bargnani considered athletic? cause I see similar agility, speed and vertical in him.
3) If you can't determine if he has the IQ to play center than nothing else matters
4) He looked extremely passive defensively which would lead me to believe he's better off at the 4.

He himself has said he see's himself as a 4 and not a 5 and as we can all atest to there is more to being a centre than physical tools.

@ Dagger from a basketball fan's prospective I don't see how anyone can be completely on board with this guy given the limited amount of dated info we have on him. I'm starting to think most here are just hoping he is what they would like him to be. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest he is anything more than big and strong.

Furthermore the guy doesn't even want to be apart of formal workouts how do you get a proper read if you're Jim Kelly? I say pass hunches are what get you Araujo or Radojevic. Top five has to have a bit more of a book for me.

[Eating a Book]

DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
Tomorrow Toronto, Washington, Utah and Detroit will travel to Vitoria, Spain to meet and watch Bismack Biyombo in a private workout.

I'm going to punch you right in the throat, Rhett.

[Reignman]

Why bother checking out Biyombo, I watched some footage and he was missing rotations, cheating on defense, couldn't dribble and doesn't seem to have any offensive game.

He is what he is, there's no point in grabbing a player like that.

I'm obviously joking, just making a point.

[Truthrising]

Footage don't lie.

So basically, if you watched the last few minutes of last night's NBA finals game we should conclude LeBron and Bosh are scrubs/chokers?

exactly, this is just compiled highlights of 2 of the 4 games he's chosen of his exact worst point of his defensive abilities without any context of the game situation and we're gonna judge him based on that?

[Kevin Willis]

before you judge a player, It'd be nice if Draftexpress were to provide a "highlight" of lowlight clips of Jonas Valenciunas or Biyombo for example, i'm pretty sure you can paint them in the worst light if he were to edit a few of their plays where they were playing at the lowest in terms of their defense. It probably wouldn't be that hard, also I'd like to know if maybe Kanter was trying to avoiding being in foul trouble on most of the possessions where his opponent did score, i'd like to know what the situation was what we have here is a highlight of his lowlights which would be easy to compile for any high school athlete,do we know what situation he was is for each possesion in order to give a fair assessment of the given play? At least Draftexpress (Givony) should've provided the full game or at deep analysis of the game situation at least we know the whole situation.

Actually they've been doing that - providing video highlights of strenght and weakness.

[5DOM]

Footage don't lie.

So basically, if you watched the last few minutes of last night's NBA finals game we should conclude LeBron and Bosh are scrubs/chokers?

Yeah but it's more telling when a potential top 5 pick in the NBA draft didn't play any kind of D against average HS players.

[Reignman]

@ reignman - get off the high horse there are certainly a lot of red flags when considering what it is Kanter has that makes him an intriguing selection. Kelly said it himself there is NO evidence that he can effectively play the 5

1) being big doesn't mean you have a centre's mentality
2) Is Bargnani considered athletic? cause I see similar agility, speed and vertical in him.
3) If you can't determine if he has the IQ to play center than nothing else matters
4) He looked extremely passive defensively which would lead me to believe he's better off at the 4.

He himself has said he see's himself as a 4 and not a 5 and as we can all atest to there is more to being a centre than physical tools.

.

What high horse? Common sense clearly isn't common is it?

You're making all kinds of leaps and assumptions based on a very small sample of clips taken 2 years ago when the kid was 17. Key word being "kid".

If you think he's finished developing as a prospect then you need to go find another sport and having read your posts it's probably a good idea anyway.

You've misquoted many things and I don't have the patience to correct everything you've written.


I agree the mentality to play defense is very important that that's why it was one of my questions. The brass needs to know what his mentality is. Either way, it's foolish for you guys to assume he's always going to be the same guy he was at age 16/17.

oh, BTW< go look at some footage from the U-18 tourney and you'll see much better D. This obviously highlights some bad things but that's not how he always plays D either.

[Truthrising]

And full games if Biyombo and Valanciunas are actually available

Sure I can provide a highlight of their lowlights of their defensive plays when they were 16-17 as well, I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult.

[Vorticity]

I think Kanter & Vesely are in the mix at No. 3. Ditto for Kemba

WTF? Vesely at #3?

[T_Biggums]

Footage don't lie.

So basically, if you watched the last few minutes of last night's NBA finals game we should conclude LeBron and Bosh are scrubs/chokers?

Nah their body of work proves otherwise. Kanter... not so much

[RapsFanInVA]

I think Kanter & Vesely are in the mix at No. 3. Ditto for Kemba

WTF? Vesely at #3?

That would be great for us.

[Kevin Willis]

I really hope we have absolutely no interest in Vesely. I'm hoping for one of Biyombo/Knight/Valanciunas, and I'd be fine with Kanter/Walker... but Vesely I really want no part of.

He's the only player projected top 10-ish that I absolutely do not want. I don't really want Leonard either, but he'd be better than Vesely.

Why don't you want him? What did Vesely ever do to you?

[Rhettmatic]

I really hope we have absolutely no interest in Vesely. I'm hoping for one of Biyombo/Knight/Valanciunas, and I'd be fine with Kanter/Walker... but Vesely I really want no part of.

He's the only player projected top 10-ish that I absolutely do not want. I don't really want Leonard either, but he'd be better than Vesely.

Why don't you want him? What did Vesely ever do to you?

I've watched him play a few times and he's horrible at almost everything. He can jump high but he isn't a good defender, he can't dribble, he can't shoot and he's 21. I simply don't see the appeal, on any level.

I don't know why people seem to get so excited about white prospects who happen to be really athletic (see also: Joe Alexander, who was very popular on this board despite sucking at basketball). Vesely just seems to lack every crucial basketball skill you can name and he's older than the rest of the class. I would stay far away.

Hey, by the way, Chad Ford's latest mock is up and we're taking... Vesely. Yay.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft201 ... aft-110608

[Reignman]

Footage don't lie.

So basically, if you watched the last few minutes of last night's NBA finals game we should conclude LeBron and Bosh are scrubs/chokers?

Nah their body of work proves otherwise. Kanter... not so much

LOL, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I told you to go watch some footage from the U-18s and watch the defense Kanter played, much better than those clips. SAme with the hoops summit, much better than those clips as well.

You've jumped to way too many conclusions on 30 seconds of clips HIGHLIGHTING bad defensive plays.

Does that mean he's going to be a great defender in the league? Of course not. Does that mean his defense is always going to be the way it was in those clips? Of course not. That's where scouting / interviews will come into play.

[T_Biggums]

@ reignman - get off the high horse there are certainly a lot of red flags when considering what it is Kanter has that makes him an intriguing selection. Kelly said it himself there is NO evidence that he can effectively play the 5

1) being big doesn't mean you have a centre's mentality
2) Is Bargnani considered athletic? cause I see similar agility, speed and vertical in him.
3) If you can't determine if he has the IQ to play center than nothing else matters
4) He looked extremely passive defensively which would lead me to believe he's better off at the 4.

He himself has said he see's himself as a 4 and not a 5 and as we can all atest to there is more to being a centre than physical tools.

.

What high horse? Common sense clearly isn't common is it?

You're making all kinds of leaps and assumptions based on a very small sample of clips taken 2 years ago when the kid was 17. Key word being "kid".

If you think he's finished developing as a prospect then you need to go find another sport and having read your posts it's probably a good idea anyway.

You've misquoted many things and I don't have the patience to correct everything you've written.


I agree the mentality to play defense is very important that that's why it was one of my questions. The brass needs to know what his mentality is. Either way, it's foolish for you guys to assume he's always going to be the same guy he was at age 16/17.

oh, BTW< go look at some footage from the U-18 tourney and you'll see much better D. This obviously highlights some bad things but that's not how he always plays D either.

Get off your high horse

Some of you have absolutly no idea of how to judge a prospect. Reading some of the posts you'd think Kanter was a 30 year old vet.

I'm making judgment based on what I've seen not what I think can happen because he's big. I think its obvious he's not finished developing he hasn't played any organized basketball in almost 2 yrs there is tons of room to grow, the question is what type of player is he evolving into given what WE'VE seen! You can guesstimate all you want that in time he could be a great defender and in time he will be a lane intimidator but that is your opinion based on a very small amount of evidence.

Its equally foolish to assume he's going to be a solid pick up with the limited resources we have available to go on.

[xprt]

Yea I feel Vesely has highest probability to be bust of all euros. Other than his atletic ability he is average or below average on everything else...

[Reignman]

@ reignman - get off the high horse there are certainly a lot of red flags when considering what it is Kanter has that makes him an intriguing selection. Kelly said it himself there is NO evidence that he can effectively play the 5

1) being big doesn't mean you have a centre's mentality
2) Is Bargnani considered athletic? cause I see similar agility, speed and vertical in him.
3) If you can't determine if he has the IQ to play center than nothing else matters
4) He looked extremely passive defensively which would lead me to believe he's better off at the 4.

He himself has said he see's himself as a 4 and not a 5 and as we can all atest to there is more to being a centre than physical tools.

.

What high horse? Common sense clearly isn't common is it?

You're making all kinds of leaps and assumptions based on a very small sample of clips taken 2 years ago when the kid was 17. Key word being "kid".

If you think he's finished developing as a prospect then you need to go find another sport and having read your posts it's probably a good idea anyway.

You've misquoted many things and I don't have the patience to correct everything you've written.


I agree the mentality to play defense is very important that that's why it was one of my questions. The brass needs to know what his mentality is. Either way, it's foolish for you guys to assume he's always going to be the same guy he was at age 16/17.

oh, BTW< go look at some footage from the U-18 tourney and you'll see much better D. This obviously highlights some bad things but that's not how he always plays D either.

Get off your high horse

Some of you have absolutly no idea of how to judge a prospect. Reading some of the posts you'd think Kanter was a 30 year old vet.

I'm making judgment based on what I've seen not what I think can happen because he's big. I think its obvious he's not finished developing he hasn't played any organized basketball in almost 2 yrs there is tons of room to grow, the question is what type of player is he evolving into given what WE'VE seen! You can guesstimate all you want that in time he could be a great defender and in time he will be a lane intimidator but that is your opinion based on a very small amount of evidence.

Its equally foolish to assume he's going to be a solid pick up with the limited resources we have available to go on.

You're making a judgment off of a 30 second clip of HIGHLIGHTS where the author specifically did that to analyze his bad plays. You don't know what you're talking about.

And nowhere have I said he'll be a good defender because of his size, learn to read buddy, that's one aspect only. I've also never said Kanter is going to be a great defender. I have always said if his height/length/athleticism check out and he has a good understanding of his position he should be an adequate defender.

[T_Biggums]

So basically, if you watched the last few minutes of last night's NBA finals game we should conclude LeBron and Bosh are scrubs/chokers?

Nah their body of work proves otherwise. Kanter... not so much

LOL, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I told you to go watch some footage from the U-18s and watch the defense Kanter played, much better than those clips. SAme with the hoops summit, much better than those clips as well.

You've jumped to way too many conclusions on 30 seconds of clips HIGHLIGHTING bad defensive plays.

Does that mean he's going to be a great defender in the league? Of course not. Does that mean his defense is always going to be the way it was in those clips? Of course not. That's where scouting / interviews will come into play.

I think the same can be said about you! You chastise people for watching footage of bad defense then you tell them they should go watch clips of his "good" defense. Its the same thing, point I'm making is we as fans have a very small amount to go on to formulate opinions on. I would temper my enthusiasm especially if scouts are strongly questioning if he can indeed play centre.

[T_Biggums]

You're making a judgment off of a 30 second clip of HIGHLIGHTS where the author specifically did that to analysis his bad plays. You don't know what you're talking about.

Yes Reignman only you know what makes a solid prospect... Only you!