Wade Finals PER = 40.25, rest of team = 44.74

[Ballamy]

after the Bulls series Wade was "declining", LeBron has to carry the team, Wade was choking, etc.

5 games later he's better than Kobe.

Aganst the Bulls, Wade was totally clutch in the 4th quarters of games 3 ,4 and 5 however. He was fantastic at rebounding the ball in their wins which was extremely important against a team like the Bulls that thrive on their rebounding. Wade scored 9 of the final 18 points of game 5.And Wade was a beast defensively in the 4th quarters as well making defensive playmaking plays all over the place:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamih ... -2-defense

Wade made a TON of defensive playmaking plays in the 4th quarters of that series. And of course Wade is about to set a record this year in a playoff run for a player 6'6 or shorter with his rebound/blocks

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=225007

I wish Lebron would show up in critical 4th quarters in the finals like Wade showed up in the 4th quarters in the Bulls, celtics and Phlly Series. Say what you want about Wade in the Bulls series, but he was exceptional in the 4th quarters when it counted, Wade shot 57% in the 4th quarters in the bulls series and had an exceptional all around game with excellent defense and clutch rebounding in the 4th qrts to secure very important possessions against a rebounding/possession team like the bulls. And again , Wade shot 57% in the 4th quarters of the bulls series and was great late in those games (when those games were decided).. I wish lebron would show up in the 4th in these tight and critical 4th quarters like Wade has consistently doing through ths playoff run..

LeBron was putrid in Game 4 of the Finals n the 4th quarter, going 0/1 shooting, just 1 assist and 1 rebound in the quarter, and was horrible defensively allowing his defensive matchups to beat him for buckets time and time again.. and then in Game 5 it was more of the same, LeBron got roasted on defense allowing Terry to drive, got beat for a bunch of buckets, and LeBron was invisible offensively as well. and he had 1 rebound in the 4th of that game as well

Wade was FAR FAAAAAAR better with his 4th quarters in the Bulls series compared to LeBron in this series.. LeBron has been invisible not only offensively with just 11 points in the FIVE 4th quarters of the Finals so far (just a 2.2 ppg average in the 4th), but LeBron is also getting eaten up defensively as well. Wade was great n the 4th quarters and the overtime in the Bulls series with his points, his 57% shooting percentage, his clutch rebounding, assists, his fantastic overall defense etc etc.. There is NO COMPARISON between what Wade showed in that Bulls series in 4th quarters (when those bulls games were decided very late) compared to what LeBron with his disappearing act on both ends of the floor in this Finals series showed so far when these games are being decided in the 4th. There IS NO COMPARISON !

and oh yeah., Kobe Bryant has been a HORRiBLE "UNDER" 30% shooter in the 4th quarters of the last 2 NBA Finals. Kobe was just in the 20's in shooting percentage in 4th quarters over the last 2 finals.. his team carried him late in those games.....so please don't try to compare Kobe to Wade..

and here's my final note I will leave you with.. and you can feel free to dig and compare the data

That is just FLAT-OUT RIDICULOUS. Wade was clearly the best player in the Boston series going for over 30ppg on 53% shooting and he closed out games 1,2 and was key in game 4 when he scored 4 of their final 10 points including a 3 with a minute remaining... In game 5, while LEBron scored the final 10 points, it was Wade defensively who was a beast. He was parked by the rim and he altered Boston 4 final shots at the rim because of his fantastic shot blocking ability. And Boston did not score a single bucket in the final 5 minutes of regulation primarily because of Wade's defense.

But here in this Finals series LeBron is almost invisible in the 4th quarters ! LeBron has only 11 points in the 4th Qtrs through 5 games ! His defense has also been piss poor in the 4th quarters allowing Terry and Marion to score at will in the last few games. LeBron was 0/1 with just 1 rebound , 1 assist in the 4th quarter in game 4, and playing lazy uninspired basketball.... and in game 5 LeBron was allowing terry to score on him including driving on lebron easily in the 4th.. And of course LeBron was invisible on offense in the 4th of game 5. And then you have the fact that Bosh has been almost invisible as well in the critical 4th quarters too ! In Game 4, while Bosh had a great first half, Bosh was downright horrible in the 2nd half going for just 1/7 shooting in the 2nd half, a long with getting killed on the boards by Tyson Chandler (who had 16 rebounds in that game and most of them in the 2nd half - while bosh just had 6 for the game and only 2 rebounds in the 2nd half), and you add Bosh's turnovers in the 2nd half with his butterfingers in the 2nd half, to go along with his bad defense in the 2nd halves of games 4 and 5... Well it's no wonder that Wade is getting no help at all in the 4th quartes from LeBron and Bosh as the other 2 have been terrible in critical 4th quarters in this series (for the most part).

You can say whatever you want in the Bulls series about Wade. But in Games 3, 4 and 5 in the 4th quarters Wade came up HUGE, and clutch ! He was fantastic defensively in the 4th quarters with many clutch playmaking plays defensively. He only shot 41% for the series, HOWEVER in the 4th quarters Wade shot 57% in that series. Wade showed up when it counted in those 4th quarters when those tight games were decided!!

His defense was astounding in that Bulls series.. as evidenced here"

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamih ... -2-defense

And of course, Wade's unbelievable rebounding in that series was HUGE against a rebounding team like the Bulls that thrive on their rebounding. In Miami's wins in that series, Wade was a total BEAST on the boards, gaining many critical possessions for the Heat, in a series where rebounding was absolutely PARAMOUNT as it was a possessions series. Here is a great article showing how fantastic Wade was in that series in all other aspects of the game (and especially in 4th quarters when he came up big- and remember that Wade scored 9 of Miami's final 18 points in Game 5 to clinch the victory, Wade came up huge in the 4th quarters in that Chicago series:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=225007

And of course it was Wade being double and triple teamed in the Boston and Philly series, but he was still the closer for over the first half of the Boston series and Wade was the closer in the Philly series:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamih ... pping-wade

LeBron has NOT been doing those things in the 4th quarters of this series when games are tight and being decided in the 4th quarters (and that's offensively and defensively where LeBron has been terrible). Wade has in the previous 2 series, stepping up his offense and defense in the PIVOTAL 4th quarters,.. Wade had 10 points in the 4th quarter last game in Game 5 against the Mavs again, but where was everybody else??. There in lies the difference between the two players. Wade has been showing up in 4th quarters through the entire postseason, while LeBron has chosen to be invisible in the 4th quarters of the NBA Finals in the series against Dallas (that's offensively and defensively).

And remember that Wade had a higher PER than LeBron after the first two rounds of the playoffs. Wade was better than any player in the league after the first two rounds of the playoffs:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=222553

Wade did not have the efficiency when it came to his scoring in the Bulls series going for only 19 points per game on 41% shooting, HOWEVER Wade really stepped it up in the 4th quarters in their wins (offensively, defensively AND rebounding, and shot 57% in the 4th quarters in that series -- and of course Wade was just a BEAST his astounding defense and critical rebounding in the 4th quarters of those games, and some very important passes as well (all of that is MISSING from LeBron in the 4th quarters of this NBA Finals series against Dallas)

THOSE ARE THE REASONS why Miami won those series and in this series Miami is behind 3 games to 2. The problem is LeBron's disappearing act in the 4th quarters while Wade has been stepping up in the 4th quarters in these playoffs, and doing it consistently. Wade needs LeBron's help in these critical 4th quarters. LeBron needs to step up his defense, crash the boards for rebounds, take the initiative in the 4th quarters,.. JUST DO SOMETHING and stop playing like a scared D-leaguer in the 4th quarters.. Please LeBron.

[Stills12]

after the Bulls series Wade was "declining", LeBron has to carry the team, Wade was choking, etc.

5 games later he's better than Kobe.

LOVE this place. Love it.

My favourite will always be

Before The Decision: Lebron is the best player in the league

After The Decision: Kobe is the best player in the league

I never saw so many people do a 180 in such a short period of time

[notagenius]

wade has a 40 PER yet watching the games dirk was has been the best player by far in this series.
Just goes to show you that stats mean ****.

[Chosen01]

wade has a 40 PER yet watching the games dirk was has been the best player by far in this series.
Just goes to show you that stats mean ****.

Uh Dirk was shooting 42% before game 5, he makes his points when it matter (in the clutch) but so has Wade for most of the series but obviously Dirk's team is ahead but I wouldn't say hes been the best BY FAR.

[Hon-essim]

Kobe's numbers may be deflated a bit because he's actually used to the NBA finals, and didn't need Shaq/LBJ-Bosh to get there the two years he actually made it.

Shaq in '06 wasn't anywhere near as valuable as peak Gasol. To act like that Shaq was at all the same as he had been during the 3-peat is absurd. Just for some perspective: Peak Shaq's Win Shares 18.6 in '99-00, it went down to 6.2 in '05-06 and then he got noticeably worse come playoff time. Shaq was literally well less than half the player he'd been at peak.

I kind of disagree with this statement. Shaq was pretty valuable at that time. He wasn't "the man" in the finals. He was "the man" in the conference finals. But Gasol wasn't "the man" either. Kobe was.

Gasol was a perfect fit for the Lakers and at his peak he had nights where he came close to prime Duncan and could dominate the game without scoring the ball especially since the team wasn't handing the ball to him enough times hence the idea that Kobe was the man. Shaq on the other hand, had good games since he is still a physical specimen but as the man he was in a rocky situation with the Heat. In times the Heat were just so lacking in the big man department and other times it was just good fundamental Riley basketball to hand the ball to a dominating big man since they weren't exactly a young team.

No question that Gasol was the more important player and you saw first hand this season how easily this Lakers team fall down without Gasol. Shaq on the Heat in his bad nights made the Heat a 2nd round team with Wade able to will this team past a game. (Essentially what this team was before they acquired Shaq) Gasol on the other hand turns the Lakers into a joke if he's playing badly in the first round against an undermanned NO.

[mnml]

For everyone that keeps saying Wade hasn't been in the finals against defensive powerhouses like Pistons and Boston.. Well how can he be, when he is playing IN the East?

If you want to take the same teams that Kobe and Wade have been against, you can take last years Boston (or even this years, because of the similar line up). You can't take the regular season games into account, but you can compare playoff games to finals because of similar intensity (boston vs heat was almost like finals, both teams left everything on the court for the W)
Hell, you can even compare this years Dallas to both Wade and Kobe in the playoffs.

So there you have it, its really that simple..

Compare the finals numbers between Kobe and Wade.
Compare the same teams they were up against in playoffs (last year: Boston ; this year: Dallas)

[Dr Pepper]

When it comes to legacies, Kobe's never had a special Finals series or even a truly great Finals game that I can recall. Duncan and Shaq were beasts back in the day and put up monster numbers and Duncan a near quadruple double. Wade's performances easily outclass Kobe here and imo Wade's the closest player to MJ we've seen in the Finals from a guard. Wade's determination and relentless attack on both ends of the court is the kind of winning drive that MJ was made out of.

Truly special stuff by Wade and there's also no question that he's the Finals MVP. Shame it'll all go to waste if they lose. However if Wade gets another Finals MVP and keeps winning rings then he'll close in on Kobe's rankings in the all time stuff.

And if Kobe fans start picking on the fact that its the Mavs that Wade's beasting on...well this is the Mavs team that embarrassed the Lakers and Kobe couldn't score a layup until 2.5 games into that series against them. And the Magic team the Lakers faced in the Finals had to be one of the worst Finals team ever and Kobe should have had a field day against their perimeter defenders imo.

[CJ_18]

wade is getting overrated by the minute.. He's playing with Lebron (and bosh)... everyone expected Lebron to take over so Wade took everyone by surprised.. he's been in only 2 finals.. one with shaq and now with 2 other stars..

You cant use that as an argument, Kobe's never been to a final without shaq or gasol.

and dont joke hes clearly the best player on the team, he wouldn't even have a chance to play this well in the finals if not for LeBron carrying them earlier. Hes playing the best right now, thats it.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

[ERRDAY3]

If the Heat win, Kobe Vs Wade becomes an argument. Thats two rings that he won on his own as the best player on the team just like Kobe. And if the Heat win multiple titles as expected its going to be close. I mean Ive always felt like those two have been very very close. But even Kobe hasnt dominated in the finals like this.

wade played the mavs in both finals. kobe playedd one of the greatest defenses of all time last year. orlando was a better defensive team than dallas too (dwight guarding the paint and guys like pietrus sticking to kobe).

so Wade destroyed that great defense 2 years in a row and he destroyed the Pistons defense two years in a row too. Mavs are a good defensive team Kobe had one amazing game against them did he ever have a good game against them again. The same defenses Kobe's struggled against Wade's destroyed.

[Chosen01]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Dallas was 11th in Drtg and 7th in points allowed.

Of course Wade didn't face top 5 defensive teams in the finals, because he faced them in his path to the finals.Either way you look at it, Wade plays better against better defensive teams and has proven to all out in the finals.

[primecougar]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

exactly kobe has faced these defensive power house teams and he was never in his prime in the finals.

[primecougar]

Yet they're still losing.

Just goes to show that it's LeBron's team, as LeBron goes so do the Heat.

yea because if lebron was playing like wade was and wade played like lebron the heat would be up in the series?

cmon your logic is horrendous. LOL

heat lost against chicago?? lebron is palying better in the finals compared to wade in the ecf

[Dr Pepper]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Dallas was 11th in Drtg and 7th in points allowed.

Of course Wade didn't face top 5 defensive teams in the finals, because he faced them in his path to the finals.Either way you look at it, Wade plays better against better defensive teams and has proven to all out in the finals.

Especially if you compare the numbers Wade put up versus the Celtics last year compared to Kobe's. Wade's one hell of a playoffs player.

[ERRDAY3]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

exactly kobe has faced these defensive power house teams and he was never in his prime in the finals.

While Wade played those defensive powers getting to the finals

[Chosen01]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Dallas was 11th in Drtg and 7th in points allowed.

Of course Wade didn't face top 5 defensive teams in the finals, because he faced them in his path to the finals.Either way you look at it, Wade plays better against better defensive teams and has proven to all out in the finals.

Especially if you compare the numbers Wade put up versus the Celtics last year compared to Kobe's. Wade's one hell of a playoffs player.

Exactly, you can't penalize him for not playing powerhouse in the FINALS because each year the playoffs that he's healthy hes done great against them except Chicago this year.

[ERRDAY3]

Yet they're still losing.

Just goes to show that it's LeBron's team, as LeBron goes so do the Heat.

yea because if lebron was playing like wade was and wade played like lebron the heat would be up in the series?

cmon your logic is horrendous. LOL

heat lost against chicago?? lebron is palying better in the finals compared to wade in the ecf

Wade was clutch and played great defense in the ECF Lebron is super unclutch and playing average defense in the finals.
Wade: 19/6/2/2/1 41%
Lebron: 17/8/7/2/0 45%

[primecougar]

Mavs are not a good defensive team. Kobe in the finals went against Goat defenses.
Wade gets to play against the MAVS twice! Prime Kobe scored 62 points in three quarters against them. Prime kobe averaged 40 pts against them in the reg season!

Look what happened when Wade faced a defensive power house Kobe is use to facing in the finals.
He averages 18 pts on 40% shooting plus 5tovs!

Actually both Mav teams were good on defense. The notion that they aren't is largely just based on the idea that a team with only Dirk as star must be terrible on defense, but it's simply untrue.

Now, you can argue that Wade has faced weaker Finals defenses than Kobe, but if you adjust for that quantitatively it's pretty hard to imagine it would even come close to removing Wade's edge.

Re: How Kobe did against Dallas in '06.

Kobe destroyed teams by making shots. Shots that he could hit against anybody, but the vast majority of the time, he didn't, and he didn't become any more likely to do in the playoffs. It's not at all the same as Wade's approach.

so in 06 couldnt make those shot majority of the time but somehow averaged 35.4ppg with scrubs on his team and single handily embarrassed the entire league and the same maverick team.

wade in the Chicago series wasn't anything special. ronnie brewer locked him down. when wade faced a top 5 team he was killed. don't tell me he was tired the guy played 10 games before that. the phily series was a joke and the Celtics series both lebron and wade played their best.

[Chosen01]

He was fatigued, he and LeBron said themselves that he didn't have his legs and Wade is not someone who normally makes excuses for something.

[JWiLL02]

When it comes to legacies, Kobe's never had a special Finals series or even a truly great Finals game that I can recall. Duncan and Shaq were beasts back in the day and put up monster numbers and Duncan a near quadruple double. Wade's performances easily outclass Kobe here and imo Wade's the closest player to MJ we've seen in the Finals from a guard. Wade's determination and relentless attack on both ends of the court is the kind of winning drive that MJ was made out of.

Truly special stuff by Wade and there's also no question that he's the Finals MVP. Shame it'll all go to waste if they lose. However if Wade gets another Finals MVP and keeps winning rings then he'll close in on Kobe's rankings in the all time stuff.

And if Kobe fans start picking on the fact that its the Mavs that Wade's beasting on...well this is the Mavs team that embarrassed the Lakers and Kobe couldn't score a layup until 2.5 games into that series against them. And the Magic team the Lakers faced in the Finals had to be one of the worst Finals team ever and Kobe should have had a field day against their perimeter defenders imo.

Kobe was incredible vs. the Magic in '09. LeBron blew him out of the water statistically that season, but his skill level and fundamentals had people rightfully saying he was still the best in the world.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRBzzr9Egig[/youtube]

If you go by raw numbers Wade obviously has the advantage, albeit in a much smaller sample size, but I don't think he'll ever be able to show that level of skill and composure Kobe had in '09. He averaged 30/5.3/5.5/1.7 throughout the entire playoffs and dominated some good perimeter defenders in the Finals (Pietrus, Barnes, Lee).

Wade definitely has some great individual numbers though, and has proven himself as an all time great finals performer. If LeBron was even a third of the player he was in the conference finals the series would be over.