Wade Finals PER = 40.25, rest of team = 44.74

[Doctor MJ]

so in 06 couldnt make those shot majority of the time but somehow averaged 35.4ppg with scrubs on his team and single handily embarrassed the entire league and the same maverick team.

Averaging 35.4 PPG on adequate but not impressive efficiency is not at all the same as regularly scoring 60 PPG. Credit him for scoring a lot, but implying that he'd blaze through any team in a series at the 40+ level is unreasonable.

Kobe didn't embarrass the league. I mean, AI scored 33, LeBron scored 31. Kobe wasn't that much of an outlier and his team barely won more than it lost. None of this means I find it ridiculous if you think Kobe was the best player that year, but just don't get carried away with ideas that he would do better in all situations than a player in a different mold like Wade.

[Bladers]

so in 06 couldnt make those shot majority of the time but somehow averaged 35.4ppg with scrubs on his team and single handily embarrassed the entire league and the same maverick team.

Averaging 35.4 PPG on adequate but not impressive efficiency is not at all the same as regularly scoring 60 PPG. Credit him for scoring a lot, but implying that he'd blaze through any team in a series at the 40+ level is unreasonable.

Kobe didn't embarrass the league. I mean, AI scored 33, LeBron scored 31. Kobe wasn't that much of an outlier and his team barely won more than it lost. None of this means I find it ridiculous if you think Kobe was the best player that year, but just don't get carried away with ideas that he would do better in all situations than a player in a different mold like Wade.

Kobe averaged 44 points against the 06 mavs in the reg season!

[Doctor MJ]

Kobe averaged 44 points against the 06 mavs in the reg season!

How do I explain this?

Say you've got a player who averages 35 PPG. In any given group of 3 games, you expect him to score 35 PPG. If in one of those 3 games instead he scores 60, with the other two being roughly average games, then you would expect that the average over 3 games would be just about 44 points per game.

This is not at all the same as a player consistently putting up 44 points against an opponent, and certainly not the same as doing it in the playoffs.

[dn0774]

Averaging 35.4 PPG on adequate but not impressive efficiency is not at all the same as regularly scoring 60 PPG. Credit him for scoring a lot, but implying that he'd blaze through any team in a series at the 40+ level is unreasonable.

Kobe didn't embarrass the league. I mean, AI scored 33, LeBron scored 31. Kobe wasn't that much of an outlier and his team barely won more than it lost. None of this means I find it ridiculous if you think Kobe was the best player that year, but just don't get carried away with ideas that he would do better in all situations than a player in a different mold like Wade.

Kobe averaged 44 points against the 06 mavs in the reg season!

Ya'know how Kobe put 81 on the Raptors that season? In the other game against them he dropped 11 on them...total...92 divided by 2 = 46 ppg....aka 1 big game skewing the entire results aka he almost assuredly wouldn't avg 44 in a 7 game series against anyone.

Superstars have huge games sometimes, that doesn't mean its their average, no matter who its against.

[Flash is the Future]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

This is true if we look at the teams Wade has played in the Finals, but failing to acknowledge the great defenses Wade has torched is dangerously close to implying that Wade might not even manage the same stats Kobe did under similar circumstances, which runs contrary to the data we have.

Defenses Dwyane Wade has faced and his series stats against them:
1. 2004 Pacers - 97.2 (#3) (Pacers in 6)
21PPG (56.7TS%) 5.7APG 4RPG 1.3SPG .5BPG 4.5TOPG
2. 2007 Bulls - 99.6 (#1) (Bulls in 4)
23.5PPG (47.9TS%) 6.3APG 4.8RPG 1.3SPG .5BPG 5.8TOPG
3. 2011 Celtics - 100.3 (#2) (Heat in 5)
30.2PPG (61.6TS%) 4.8APG 6.8RPG 2SPG .6BPG 3.0TOPG
4. 2011 Bulls - 100.3 (#1) (Heat in 5)
18.8PPG (49.8TS%) 2.2APG 6.4RPG 1.6SPG 1.2BPG 4TOPG
5. 2005 Pistons - 101.2 (#3) (Pistons in 7)
25.8PPG (51.9TS%) 4.3APG 4.5RPG 1.7SPG 1BPG 2.8TOPG
6. 2006 Nets - 102.4 (#3) (Heat in 5)
27.6PPG (60TS%) 6.6APG 6RPG 2.4SPG .6BPG 3.6TOPG
7. 2004 Hornets - 102.4 (#12) (Heat in 7)
15.4PPG (48.7TS%) 5.6APG 4RPG 1.3SPG .1BPG 3.9TOPG
8. 2005 Nets - 103.1 (#6) (Heat in 4)
26.3PPG (58.4TS%) 8.8APG 6.3RPG 1.8SPG 1BPG 5TOPG
9. 2006 Pistons - 103.1 (#5) (Heat in 6)
26.7PPG (68.4TS%) 5.5APG 5.2RPG 1.8SPG 1.5BPG 4.7TOPG
10. 2006 Bulls - 103.4 (#7) (Heat in 6)
24.7PPG (54TS%) 7.2APG 4.5RPG 2SPG 1.3BPG 3.7TOPG
11. 2010 Celtics - 103.8 (#5) (Celtics in 5)
33.2PPG (65TS%) 6.8APG 5.6RPG 1.6SPG 1.6BPG 5.2TOPG
12. 2006 Mavericks - 105.0 (#12) (Heat in 6)
34.7PPG (57.2TS%) 7.8RPG 3.8APG 2.7SPG 1BPG 3.7TOPG
13. 2011 76ers - 105.0 (#8) (Heat in 5)
22.2PPG (52.7TS%) 5.2APG 8.4RPG 1.4SPG 2BPG 2.8TOPG
14. 2011 Mavericks - 105.0 (#7) (Mavericks lead 3-2)
28.4PPG (64.3TS%) 5APG 6.8RPG 1.6SPG 1.4BPG 2TOPG
15. 2005 Wizards - 107.5 (#20) (Heat in 4)
31PPG (60.1TS%) 8APG 7RPG 1.3SPG 1.5BPG 6.3TOPG
16. 2009 Hawks - 107.6 (#12) (Hawks in 7)
29.1PPG (56.5TS%) 5.3APG 5RPG .9SPG 1.6BPG 3.6TOPG

It should be no surprise that Wade has faced weaker defenses in the Finals than Kobe. Aside from the fact that 4 of Kobe's 7 finals appearances came in the non-handchecking era (in the 5 years before 2005, the average league defensive rating hovered around 103, but since then, it has hovered around 107), you would be wise to note that Wade plays in the East, and as it would turn out, when a team in the Eastern Conference reaches the finals, it necessarily plays a team from the Western Conference, and aside from the Spurs and to a degree the Rockets, there have not been any consistently great defensive teams out West. The crux of your argument punishes the player for his conference, which should be almost entirely irrelevant to individual success. The Celtics, Pistons, and Nets teams that Wade has faced and dominated were better defensively than essentially everyone Kobe has faced out West in the playoffs during the non-handchecking era. Seriously, Wade has put up TS%'s that Kobe can only dream of, against outstanding defensive teams. Perhaps that's why Kobe's fizzled out by the Finals these past few years - because he hasn't had to compete against an Eastern Conference defense on his road to the Finals. Now granted, Wade has had issues with the Bulls over the years, not just due to definite injury (2007) and possible injury (2011), but also because he's just never played well in Chicago, regular season or playoffs. He even had some issues with the 2005 Pistons after he hurt his rib in Game 5. But he's torched basically every other defensive stalwart he's faced, and there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't have done exactly that, even if you had changed the name of the "Eastern Conference Finals" to the "NBA Finals".

[Blame Rasho]

Well this tells me that the avg player is pretty crappy in this series because I don't think Wade is playing at an unholy level like his PER indicates.

[dn0774]

Well this tells me that the avg player is pretty crappy in this series because I don't think Wade is playing at an unholy level like his PER indicates.

For PER it is compared in relation to the other players? So if everyone is playing inefficiently a player could have an inflated PER easier? Just curious btw...

[Blame Rasho]

Well this tells me that the avg player is pretty crappy in this series because I don't think Wade is playing at an unholy level like his PER indicates.

For PER it is compared in relation to the other players? So if everyone is playing inefficiently a player could have an inflated PER easier? Just curious btw...

The regular season and playoff avg is set at 15, and so.. that is why you can't really compare PER across different seasons and playoffs. PER is the reflection of how good you are compared to the avg for the most part. It is a good guide but isn't the end all and be all.

[Ajosu]

the most impressive thing about Wade in this series hasn't been the scoring, it's been the way he's been flying around the court on both offense and defense. Besides his stats are better across the board. He's more than doubled his assists and is tied for the lead among all players in blocks in this series (while popping up seemingly everywhere) for crying out loud.

Agreed. I had no idea what his PER was in the Finals, but it doesn't surprise me that's it's some absurd number like this. He's been the best player on the floor this series, and is playing his best basketball on the biggest stage. It's been impressive watching him do everything on the court in the late stages of these games, even when Miami loses.

[Darain]

Whats Dirk?

[Doctor MJ]

Well this tells me that the avg player is pretty crappy in this series because I don't think Wade is playing at an unholy level like his PER indicates.

I don't know why you say that. With your post below it seems like you know that PER isn't normalized to 15 for the Finals, right?

Here's an analysis by statistic +/- (which to be clear is a PER-type stat not a +/- stat despite its name) of the last 20 years of Finals done before Game 5:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

Wade's performance top all but Jordan's #1 by this too.

[Blame Rasho]

Well this tells me that the avg player is pretty crappy in this series because I don't think Wade is playing at an unholy level like his PER indicates.

I don't know why you say that. With your post below it seems like you know that PER isn't normalized to 15 for the Finals, right?

Here's an analysis by statistic +/- (which to be clear is a PER-type stat not a +/- stat despite its name) of the last 20 years of Finals done before Game 5:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

Wade's performance top all but Jordan's #1 by this too.

Yeah... you should read my reply where I mentioned about the regular and playoff avg.

Going thru that link makes me even more hesitant to put significant value on that link when I look at the Spurs players on that list when they were in the finals.

[Bladers]

Kobe averaged 44 points against the 06 mavs in the reg season!

How do I explain this?

Say you've got a player who averages 35 PPG. In any given group of 3 games, you expect him to score 35 PPG. If in one of those 3 games instead he scores 60, with the other two being roughly average games, then you would expect that the average over 3 games would be just about 44 points per game.

This is not at all the same as a player consistently putting up 44 points against an opponent, and certainly not the same as doing it in the playoffs.

Ya'know how Kobe put 81 on the Raptors that season? In the other game against them he dropped 11 on them...total...92 divided by 2 = 46 ppg....aka 1 big game skewing the entire results aka he almost assuredly wouldn't avg 44 in a 7 game series against anyone.

Superstars have huge games sometimes, that doesn't mean its their average, no matter who its against.

Check your messages. HMFFL

Kobe scored 62 in three quarters in one game.
and then 43 points in another game.

It wasn't a fluke, he destroyed the mavs that year, just deal with it!

[An Unbiased Fan]

God I hate +/- stats.

They're good for evaluating rotations, nothing else.

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah... you should read my reply where I mentioned about the regular and playoff avg.

Going thru that link makes me even more hesitant to put significant value on that link when I look at the Spurs players on that list when they were in the finals.

Well two things:

1) I'm using the link to give a second source saying something similar to the first one.

2) With the link, make sure you realize that those were per minute stats, and that Ginobili & Robinson were playing really low minutes for stars.

[freshtrinity46]

If the Heat win, Kobe Vs Wade becomes an argument. Thats two rings that he won on his own as the best player on the team just like Kobe. And if the Heat win multiple titles as expected its going to be close. I mean Ive always felt like those two have been very very close. But even Kobe hasnt dominated in the finals like this.

Umm, he's won 0 on his own. And will be at 0 on his own if he wins this year. Just because he was the best performer on the team doesn't mean he won it on his own.

[Dr Pepper]

Yeah... you should read my reply where I mentioned about the regular and playoff avg.

Going thru that link makes me even more hesitant to put significant value on that link when I look at the Spurs players on that list when they were in the finals.

Well two things:

1) I'm using the link to give a second source saying something similar to the first one.

2) With the link, make sure you realize that those were per minute stats, and that Ginobili & Robinson were playing really low minutes for stars.

Plus stats are tools to be used for discussion and analyzing in their context. I get the impression that several posters look too much at the numbers and don't focus on the reasoning.

[canefandynasty]

Whats Dirk?

26.21

[Hon-essim]

If the Heat win, Kobe Vs Wade becomes an argument. Thats two rings that he won on his own as the best player on the team just like Kobe. And if the Heat win multiple titles as expected its going to be close. I mean Ive always felt like those two have been very very close. But even Kobe hasnt dominated in the finals like this.

Umm, he's won 0 on his own. And will be at 0 on his own if he wins this year. Just because he was the best performer on the team doesn't mean he won it on his own.

The Heat team was on the verge of a breakdown (no surprise considering how much they were down), yes, Wade pretty much won on his own except because of the phantom calls.

In contrast, Kobe really hasn't won anything on his own. He could've but the times where he could - he didn't.

His greatest moment for doing so was against the Piston because despite how good that team was playing, they were clearly benefitting from Kobe trying to play hero ball.

The 2nd moment came on the first Boston match-up. With Gasol clearly not playing up to par, Kobe is in a similar situation like Wade. In fact the closest situation those two had in terms of their dilemmas during the Finals. Kobe of course didn't win a ring that year and the next few seasons Gasol had become more of an anchor and Kobe had strayed to full closer.

Now none of these matter if Wade doesn't win this year or he has a sudden career ending situation or he falls off quickly but if nothing major happens to Wade and he wins a ring this year, he's clearly equal if not above Kobe.

[An Unbiased Fan]

If the Heat win, Kobe Vs Wade becomes an argument. Thats two rings that he won on his own as the best player on the team just like Kobe. And if the Heat win multiple titles as expected its going to be close. I mean Ive always felt like those two have been very very close. But even Kobe hasnt dominated in the finals like this.

Umm, he's won 0 on his own. And will be at 0 on his own if he wins this year. Just because he was the best performer on the team doesn't mean he won it on his own.

The Heat team was on the verge of a breakdown (no surprise considering how much they were down), yes, Wade pretty much won on his own except because of the phantom calls.

In contrast, Kobe really hasn't won anything on his own. He could've but the times where he could - he didn't.

His greatest moment for doing so was against the Piston because despite how good that team was playing, they were clearly benefitting from Kobe trying to play hero ball.

The 2nd moment came on the first Boston match-up. With Gasol clearly not playing up to par, Kobe is in a similar situation like Wade. In fact the closest situation those two had in terms of their dilemmas during the Finals. Kobe of course didn't win a ring that year and the next few seasons Gasol had become more of an anchor and Kobe had strayed to full closer.

Now none of these matter if Wade doesn't win this year or he has a sudden career ending situation or he falls off quickly but if nothing major happens to Wade and he wins a ring this year, he's clearly equal if not above Kobe.

LOL. So winning with a frontcourt of Shaq/Zo is "winning alone"? And winning with LBJ/Bosh is winning alone???