Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4

[tontoz]

It isn't that simple.

All I could think of are a few trades of high draft picks. Like 2nd overall for 4th overall. Those have worked out reasonably.

Chicago blew it when they traded the 2nd for Portland's 4th a few years back. They picked Aldridge at 2 then traded him to Portland who pick Tyrus at 4. What a disaster that was. Just think how good the Bulls would have been with Aldridge instead of TT. They wouldn't have had to sign Boozer.

[dobrojim]

it's all well and good for us to speculate about this, that's why
we're here right?

bottom line is how much better mgmt likes a player at 6 vs someone(s)
they might like lower down. Then you weigh that against adding yet
more youth to a roster that was already among the youngest in the
league. Factor in salary issues and you've got a real connundrum.

I certainly don't know what the right answer is. How would you
weight the different variables?

It isn't that simple.

What you are saying is that the Wizards draft who their trade partner wants and then hope that the player they want is available at 9. What if that doesn't happen? What if someone steps in and takes the player the Wizards are targeting.

I remember the Bulls one year getting stuck with a player (i think it was Rozier) that they had picked for someone else and the deal fell apart so they were stuck with him.

I can't think of too many recent instances when a team has benefited from trading down. If you have any examples feel free to share.

No that's actually not what I was trying to say anyway.

I was just trying to point out how complicated it is to decide
what the best course of action should be.

You could take the best player you can with the #6 (and later picks)

You could sacrifice current or future assets to improve your pick to
get the guy you really think can definitely help now assuming
you can find a willing trade partner

you could/might be able to trade down if you like the player lower ALMOST as much as
you like the guy you could just take with your pick and in so doing add additional
picks for other guys you think have a chance to help. Again assuming you can
find a willing partner and the picks happen like you think they will.

Is a buckshot approach or a sniper approach more likely to get you where
you want to go?

More rookies = more rookie contracts = greater cap flexibility = less experienced team
= team with (presumably) more room for upward growth = a team that will probably
not be that good next year

that why a think it's a giant convoluted conundrum of different
possibilities. How good is your crystal ball?

If you could re-do the Bron draft, should Wade go 2nd or first?
Melo would go where? Bosh? Would Darko go in the first rnd?

[tontoz]

you could/might be able to trade down if you like the player lower ALMOST as much as
you like the guy you could just take with your pick and in so doing add additional
picks for other guys you think have a chance to help.

That is what i was talking about. A trade down isnt as simple as you are making out.

In order for the trade down to work the first step is for the Wizards to take the player at 6 that the other team wants. Do you not see the potential problem there?

Not only do the Wizards have to draft a player they might not want (and risk getting stuck with him) they also have to hope that the player they want is available at 9 (or whenever).

[dobrojim]

sure - that's just another complication that has to be factored in

I'd think you'd have to have a viable fallback position when considering
trade down scenarios or you could obviously get burned.

You better be awfully certain about how things will go down
before taking a player you really don't want.

[badinage]

it's all well and good for us to speculate about this, that's why
we're here right?

bottom line is how much better mgmt likes a player at 6 vs someone(s)
they might like lower down. Then you weigh that against adding yet
more youth to a roster that was already among the youngest in the
league. Factor in salary issues and you've got a real connundrum.

I certainly don't know what the right answer is. How would you
weight the different variables?

It isn't that simple.

What you are saying is that the Wizards draft who their trade partner wants and then hope that the player they want is available at 9. What if that doesn't happen? What if someone steps in and takes the player the Wizards are targeting.

I remember the Bulls one year getting stuck with a player (i think it was Rozier) that they had picked for someone else and the deal fell apart so they were stuck with him.

I can't think of too many recent instances when a team has benefited from trading down. If you have any examples feel free to share.

Nowitzki was a trade down.

NJ got Richard Jefferson in a trade-down with Houston, winning that deal. Jefferson, Brandon Armstrong and Jason Collins in exchange for the lottery pick, one Eddie Griffin.

Boston in 1980 traded the 1st pick in the draft plus the 13th pick for the 3rd pick and a good but to that point undistinguished center named Robert Parish. With the 3rd pick, Auerback took Kevin McHale. Whammo -- the making of a dynasty in two drafts (he took Bird the year prior).

[tontoz]

I can't think of too many recent instances when a team has benefited from trading down. If you have any examples feel free to share.

Nowitzki was a trade down.

NJ got Richard Jefferson in a trade-down with Houston, winning that deal. Jefferson, Brandon Armstrong and Jason Collins in exchange for the lottery pick, one Eddie Griffin.

Boston in 1980 traded the 1st pick in the draft plus the 13th pick for the 3rd pick and a good but to that point undistinguished center named Robert Parish. With the 3rd pick, Auerback took Kevin McHale. Whammo -- the making of a dynasty in two drafts (he took Bird the year prior).

Is that your idea of recent?

[TGW]

Is that your idea of recent?

Those are recent relative to the amount of trade downs that have actually happened in the past. And the ones badinage posted are definitely legitimate.

[tontoz]

Is that your idea of recent?

Those are recent relative to the amount of trade downs that have actually happened in the past. And the ones badinage posted are definitely legitimate.

Huh?


Back when Dirk was drafted it was a totally different landscape. Now it is no big deal to draft a Euro high in the draft. Dirk was drafted 9th and he was much more accomplished than Kanter or the JVs. Back then many GMs were more skeptical of Euros.

1980? lol

Recent examples would be

-Minny trading down one spot to trade Roy for Foye
-Chicago trading down 2 spots to trade Aldridge for Tyrus
-Portland traded down 3 spots to take Webster instead of Deron

Nobody remembers what else the teams trading down got. It doesn't matter because no matter what it was they f'ed up.

[verbal8]

Is that your idea of recent?

Those are recent relative to the amount of trade downs that have actually happened in the past. And the ones badinage posted are definitely legitimate.

Huh?


Back when Dirk was drafted it was a totally different landscape. Now it is no big deal to draft a Euro high in the draft. Dirk was drafted 9th and he was much more accomplished than Kanter or the JVs. Back then many GMs were more skeptical of Euros.

1980? lol

Recent examples would be

-Minny trading down one spot to trade Roy for Foye
-Chicago trading down 2 spots to trade Aldridge for Tyrus
-Portland traded down 3 spots to take Webster instead of Deron

Nobody remembers what else the teams trading down got. It doesn't matter because no matter what it was they f'ed up.

Minny also traded down from OJ Mayo to Kevin Love.

[tontoz]

^ Yeah that was a good one.

However they took a guy they easily could have kept.

[Mizerooskie]

To me, you only trade down on the NBA if you clearly have a rebuilding project and you are thin on young players.

The Wizards had 4 2010 first round picks on their roster this season. They don't need to add 4 more.

I say consolidate the picks and move up, if at all possible. Move some combination of 6, 18, and 34 for a higher pick. If you move 6+18, draft Kanter or Williams. If you move 18+34, grab the BPA at 6 and Singleton with the other pick. If you don't move any, take a stashable Euro at 34.

[REDardWIZskin]

You have to have assets to make a play for Vets that can contribute. Its the only reason Boston was able to get KG from Minny prior to the 08 season. And you wouldn't just draft a guy with the hope that some other team wants him in a trade, you would clearly have to have a deal in place already. It would just be dependent upon if the player the other team wants falls to 6

[tontoz]

You have to have assets to make a play for Vets that can contribute. Its the only reason Boston was able to get KG from Minny prior to the 08 season. And you wouldn't just draft a guy with the hope that some other team wants him in a trade, you would clearly have to have a deal in place already. It would just be dependent upon if the player the other team wants falls to 6

What if the player that the Wizards want is drafted at 7 or 8? (assuming they are trading down to 9) What if the team they are trading with backs out after the Wizards make the pick at 6?

[WizarDynasty]

Vesely is a no brainer at six. 6'11 with crazy finishing ability off the break. He is excellent moving without the ball and has outstanding undertanding of how to move without the ball offensively and defensively. He is an excellent help defender and at 6'11 is quick enough to keep up with guards.
More importantly he showed up big for his team when they needed knocking down huge three point shots. Vesely is definitely our pick if utah doesn't steal him at 3.
He is the best running mate for john wall in this entire draft.
I think vesely transform us into a top 8 defensive team and adds another three point threat for wall.

Unlike the other top five draft picks, vesely scraps on defense with a high motor and absolutely loves the game both offensively and defensively. The other top five picks really only love offense and slack on defense.

What I love is that he actually gives john and wonderful target on every fast break..kind of like mcgee except at the three spot except he has a way better basketball iq defensively and offensively and forces him to guard at the three point line unlike thornton. Vesely is perfect to study under lewis for a month and will emerge as a defensive leader. Vesely is the best perimeter defender and fast break finisher in this draft.

A wonderful draft is vesely, tyler--whichever of thse two is there at six.
and whoever falls into the second.
All the players at 18 are reserve players that will be lucky to make a roster in three years..including singleton if he doesn't show more fluidity...and morris---hiding very poor lane agility ability

[REDardWIZskin]

Is that your idea of recent?

Those are recent relative to the amount of trade downs that have actually happened in the past. And the ones badinage posted are definitely legitimate.

Huh?


Back when Dirk was drafted it was a totally different landscape. Now it is no big deal to draft a Euro high in the draft. Dirk was drafted 9th and he was much more accomplished than Kanter or the JVs. Back then many GMs were more skeptical of Euros.

1980? lol

Recent examples would be

-Minny trading down one spot to trade Roy for Foye
-Chicago trading down 2 spots to trade Aldridge for Tyrus
-Portland traded down 3 spots to take Webster instead of Deron

Nobody remembers what else the teams trading down got. It doesn't matter because no matter what it was they f'ed up.

Those were also much better draft classes the whole point of a trade down here would be because we don't like any of the players available at 6 and the ones with talent that are there don't fit our team. Kemba and Knight. Having too much youth is a non issue when many here have clearly said that the only people they consider long term on the roster are JW and JM. Some only consider JW. It would allow us insurance to dump Blatche which most are in favor of, or send him with a young prospect which could boost the overall value of the trade as far as what we could get back. And we only have 7 players under contract, 8 including Nick... u don't think we can find upgrades over a glass knee J. Howard, Jeffers, Martin, Owens, Shakur, Yi, and HH in the middle of the first round?

[J-Blaze]

Vesely is a no brainer at six. 6'11 with crazy finishing ability off the break. He is excellent moving without the ball and has outstanding undertanding of how to move without the ball offensively and defensively. He is an excellent help defender and at 6'11 is quick enough to keep up with guards.
More importantly he showed up big for his team when they needed knocking down huge three point shots. Vesely is definitely our pick if utah doesn't steal him at 3.
He is the best running mate for john wall in this entire draft.
I think vesely transform us into a top 8 defensive team and adds another three point threat for wall.

Unlike the other top five draft picks, vesely scraps on defense with a high motor and absolutely loves the game both offensively and defensively. The other top five picks really only love offense and slack on defense.

What I love is that he actually gives john and wonderful target on every fast break..kind of like mcgee except at the three spot except he has a way better basketball iq defensively and offensively and forces him to guard at the three point line unlike thornton. Vesely is perfect to study under lewis for a month and will emerge as a defensive leader. Vesely is the best perimeter defender and fast break finisher in this draft.

A wonderful draft is vesely, tyler--whichever of thse two is there at six.
and whoever falls into the second.
All the players at 18 are reserve players that will be lucky to make a roster in three years..including singleton if he doesn't show more fluidity...and morris---hiding very poor lane agility ability

who said vesley can shoot i mean if he can then i have no problem drafting him but i heard he cant shoot and his slow on his feet AND bad hands

[tontoz]

Those were also much better draft classes

Are you trying to say that the drafting landscape hasn't changed since 1998 regarding the drafting of Euros? Really?

Candiman was drafted number 1 the year Dirk came out. The next 3 picks were Bibby, LaFrentz and Jamison.

the whole point of a trade down here would be because we don't like any of the players available at 6 and the ones with talent that are there don't fit our team.

The point of trading down is adding the 19th pick which is already devalued since we have the 18th pick. A trade down would make more sense if..

-they didn't already have the 18th pick

or

-they were adding a pick higher than 18

[REDardWIZskin]

You have to have assets to make a play for Vets that can contribute. Its the only reason Boston was able to get KG from Minny prior to the 08 season. And you wouldn't just draft a guy with the hope that some other team wants him in a trade, you would clearly have to have a deal in place already. It would just be dependent upon if the player the other team wants falls to 6

What if the player that the Wizards want is drafted at 7 or 8? (assuming they are trading down to 9) What if the team they are trading with backs out after the Wizards make the pick at 6?

1.)That's why you have a draft board, you always stick to your board first. You don't just go into the Draft with one target at each pick.

2.) I'm not sure that they could back out if the deal was entirely based on the premise that a certain player would be selected. Once the player is selected the deal would be effectively done. At least that's how the Chicago trade that got us Seraphin was reported last yr, it was based on the assumption that Chicago drafted him. Kind of like when a player must pass a physical for a trade to go through. Although I'm not 100% about that. If your right and a team can do that then it would be a problem. But I don't think a team should be allowed to do it... if they can

[REDardWIZskin]

Those were also much better draft classes

Are you trying to say that the drafting landscape hasn't changed since 1998 regarding the drafting of Euros? Really?

Candiman was drafted number 1 the year Dirk came out. The next 3 picks were Bibby, LaFrentz and Jamison.

the whole point of a trade down here would be because we don't like any of the players available at 6 and the ones with talent that are there don't fit our team.

The point of trading down is adding the 19th pick which is already devalued since we have the 18th pick. A trade down would make more sense if..

-they didn't already have the 18th pick

or

-they were adding a pick higher than 18

I was referring to the Aldridge, Deron draft classes not talking about any Euros. Those were better rated drafts than this one.
I'm not getting your point about devaluing the 19th just because we have to 18th. If we know we could use two of Brooks, Markeiff, Smith, Farried and Harper. Why would that be a bad thing? Defferent types of players will be available there that we could use. Unless you just want to re-sign Martin Jeffers, Shakur, Owens, and Yi and package them all for a bag of dog ****?

[tontoz]

Pretty sure the Bulls drafted Fizer in 2000 for someone else and the other team backed out.

I'm not getting your point about devaluing the 19th just because we have to 18th.

Because the player they want the most in that range they can pick at 18. Adding the 19th pick means they are going to get the 2nd best player on their board in that range.