JOE HAMMOND ... WHAT IF?

[The_Trade_Seer]

Joe "the Destroyer" Hammond, the Rucker legend could have been a Los Angeles Laker in 1971 but turned the team down?

My question is, had he accepted the Lakers offer, how many titles would the Lakers have as a franchise; where would Joe Hammond rank among all-time Laker greats, etc, etc, etc.

For those of you who don't know Joe Hammond was a 6'4 SG that never played h.s. or college ball yet consistently dominated at Rucker no matter what the competition was. His career scoring average at Rucker was just over 50 ppg! He is considered the greatest Rucker player ever by most and even Kareem has said the kid belonged in the NBA undoubtedly. He once dropped 40+ in a half against a squad led by Dr. J, who by the way also admits Joe should have been in the NBA. Many NBA players were said to have visited NYC baller hot spots, asked the door man if Joe was inside and if he replied no, they stayed to ball, if he replied yes they simply drove on not wanting to get embarrassed. Cazzie Russel, a lock down NBA defender once came to Rucker looking to show Joe up ... he got lit up by the Destroyer for 40+ and left in a huff, never to return for a rematch.

In 1971 his legend had spread so far that the Lakers invited him in for a tryout. After a shooting session that saw Joe make 32 jumpers in a row the Lakers had him play 1-on-1 against Laker Pat Riley, a 26 year old, 4 year veteran and Kentucky grad who had just played his first year on the Lakers and averaged 21 points and 5.5 assists per 40 mins. Joe killed him, just murdered him and it wasn't even close.

The Lakers immediately offered Joe Hammond a $50,000 one year contract (this was approx. 43% higher than the average NBA contract at that time and would therefore be equivalent to the Lakers offering a current street baller with no h.s. or college experience a $7mil 1 year deal). Joe demanded a 3 year, guarenteed no-cut deal. The Lakers couldn't comprehend how a street baller could play hard-ball in negotiations with them (they had no idea Joe made much, much more than $50k a year selling drugs and shooting craps on the street). Joe then demanded that his entire entourage from NYC be able to join him and "be taken care of" in LA. The Lakers finally balked, rescinded their offer and Joe went on to do serious jail time, etc, and while he is widely recognized as the greatest street baller ever and perhaps the greatest non-NBA player in history, his life and legacy could have been so much more.

So ... what would have happened?

[Gek]

Ummmmmmmm.... he'd have been an NBA player?

[Sofa King]

Ummmmmmmm... he would not have been in jail... much?

[frozt]

This is a really dumb topic.

[Gek]

You should get a blog, AI-in-LA. You have a lot of posts that are long and opinionated. I'm sure someone would read them.

[The_Trade_Seer]

^ True and I had one in the past that was quite popular but it's a pain having to write on stuff that doesn't interest me ... blogging is hard work ... posting some interesting little articles now and then that are Laker related is easy on my time and suits my purposes ... anyways for the goof that said it's a dumb topic, I certainly beg to differ. It's no different that the argument we make that we would have won the title in 2008 if Bynum had been 100% or the argument the Celts make that they would have beat us in 2010 had Perkins played Game 7 or the argument that Magic and the Lake show would have beat the Bad Boys in the Finals had Magic not ripped his hamstring, etc, etc, etc.

Joe Hammond was insanely gifted and it's interesting to think what could have been had he joined Wilt, West, etc.

[Sofa King]

I thought this was a good thread. Never knew who Joe Hammond was and that he tried out for the Lakers way back then.

[LaLa]

This is a really dumb topic.

Then don't post in this thread you dummy.

I remember hearing about Joe Hammond but never knew the Lakers offered him a contract. If he could destroy Dr. J, he could have probably been a 20 PPG minimum type of player.

[Imadogg]

People said it's a dumb topic because you came at us all wrong. You have to assume not many know who he is, so this thread could be you telling your story about him.. instead of saying "this is Joe, tell me WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF HE WAS HERE???".. like **** man I just heard of him I don't know what would happen if he was a Laker...

Good stuff though. Lots of those old school guys' legends seem absurd/exaggerated but I'll look him up

[Dr Aki]

lakers dynasty, 10 titles in a row, 8 time MVP, 8 time finals MVP, GOAT




duh...

[Gek]

^ True and I had one in the past that was quite popular but it's a pain having to write on stuff that doesn't interest me ... blogging is hard work ... posting some interesting little articles now and then that are Laker related is easy on my time and suits my purposes ... anyways for the goof that said it's a dumb topic, I certainly beg to differ. It's no different that the argument we make that we would have won the title in 2008 if Bynum had been 100% or the argument the Celts make that they would have beat us in 2010 had Perkins played Game 7 or the argument that Magic and the Lake show would have beat the Bad Boys in the Finals had Magic not ripped his hamstring, etc, etc, etc.

Joe Hammond was insanely gifted and it's interesting to think what could have been had he joined Wilt, West, etc.

Just get a tumblr and it doesn't matter how often you update it. I'm not saying try to make it a career.

[The_Trade_Seer]

^ Oh, okay, cool ...

man I just heard of him I don't know what would happen if he was a Laker...
Good stuff though. Lots of those old school guys' legends seem absurd/exaggerated but I'll look him up

Yeah, I hear you about exaggerations on street ballers, but Joe is as legit as they come. Kareem, Cazzie, Walt Frazier, etc, etc, all knew him and have gave him props. Some of the Earl Manigault and other sgtreet baller stuff is obviously blown out of proportion and there are some goofs who claimed Joe dropped 50 in 20 mins on Dr.J. which is silly but the real reports that are out there, dude could ball out of his mind. It makes you think ... just how many guys are out there right now who could be all-stars in the "L" but simply choose to stay in the streets because the money is to good to pass up. It's not like these cats would get any more than a 1 year min contract and that ain't nothing compared to what they're makin dealing.

One of my best friends back in 95' played ONE GAME of h.s. ball, one game. DJ was extremely, extremely talented, had a ton of charisma, decent smarts, even looked like a spittin image of Chris Webber minus a few inches. His first game was a freshman on the varsity squad and he had a triple double, something like 13/12/10 off the bench. After the game his coach gave the game ball to a white senior (my friend was the only black kid on the team) and said something muffled like "no **** is getting a game ball in his first game". DJ quit the team right after that and went to the streets, got his girl pregnant and the rest is history as they say. The white boy who got the game ball ... 3 year starter at University of Michigan ... whatever!

Stories like the above, Joe hammonds, etc, fascinate me ... I'd like to read Chris Herren's new book too, and I wouldn't doubt if it's a best seller, but there are hundreds of guys like Herren and they've all got stories to tell.

[Kilroy]

He turned down an offer to play in the NBA... That's really all you need to know...

It means he didn't want it. Which also means if he had done it, he most likely would have sucked.

It takes a fair amount of determination to do anything at a high level... It sounds like his basketball gifts came too easy to him so he needed to get his thrills somewhere else.

Those guys don't succeed in the NBA.

[ziplockfresh]

What about Pee Wee?

[The_Trade_Seer]

He turned down an offer to play in the NBA... That's really all you need to know...

Not exactly ... Jordan quit the NBA twice, Pat Tillman quit the NFL, Jim Brown retired in his prime, etc.

It means he didn't want it. Which also means if he had done it, he most likely would have sucked.

No dude, he turned the Lakers down because he was making way more money on the streets than they were offering. My great uncle balled for NYCC under Nat Holman on the last college team to win both the NCAA and NIT and he was offered a contract by the Celtics but turned it down as he had an engineering job lined up for him that paid him way more. As they say, money talks. If Lebron was offered $50mil a year to play WR for the Dolphins my guess is he would take it.

It takes a fair amount of determination to do anything at a high level... It sounds like his basketball gifts came too easy to him so he needed to get his thrills somewhere else.

Making money on the streets is about survival, not kicks. Joe busted people day in and out for free, just murdered NBA players and for nothing, so his game was tight and he had determination ... but money is another story ... gotta eat ya know what I'm sayin?

Those guys don't succeed in the NBA.

I beg to differ ... Vince, Shaq, etc have done well for themselves even they are not known as hard workers and instead of relying to much on their God-given gifts.

[The_Trade_Seer]

What about Pee Wee?

Ah, someone knows some history, good for you potna ... Kirkland was a bad, bad man ... better than the goat in my opinion but not Joe ... definitely good enough to be an all-star in the NBA though.

[hermes]

You should get a blog, AI-in-LA. You have a lot of posts that are long and opinionated. I'm sure someone would read them.

(probably shouldn't have laughed at that but...)

i'm sure the lakers would have about 25 titles by now if we would have gotten joe

[The_Trade_Seer]

It really ticks me off the the NBA is sort of an old boy's club ... I mean you've got Brian Vardinal saying he plans to play next year and be signed ... are you kidding me, Brian Cardinal. Dudes like him, Brian Scalabrine (maybe it's the first name), etc, aren't anywhere near as good as some dudes on the street right now, but they will get contracts and the street dudes won't ... ticks me off. Of course the current street ballers are not like the ballers of the 60s-80s ... it's more of a "show" now-a-days

[Sedale Threatt]

There's a lot more to being a dependable professional than raw skills.

I'm sure a ton of those guys are ridiculous. But can they be counted on to make it to practice every day? Keep their mouth shut if they're not getting minutes/shots? Work on the holes in their game? Execute a game plan correctly according to time and situation? Make the right play instead of the flashy play? Play just as hard on defense as they do on offense? Make the correct defensive rotation down the stretch of a close game? Etc., etc.

I'm not saying all of those guys are like that. But it's not just luck that somebody like Smush Parker can't last in the NBA, while a less talented player like Derek Fisher is still getting a paycheck near 40.

As for this Hammond guy, who knows? Obviously, when you've got Kareem and Dr. J singing your praises, you've obviously got game. But there are so many invariables involved, and so much Paul Bunyanesque legend attached to some of these guys -- i.e., Earl Manigault snatching dollar bills off the top of the backboard and leaving change -- that it's a huge stretch to guarantee that any player with minimal exposure to organized basketball would have been an All-Star.

One guy I do remember vividly was Lloyd Daniels, who some -- Jerry Tarkanian -- were convinced he could be even better than Magic. Then when he finally did make it to the NBA, he was no better than average. Granted, he lost a lot of practice time, and physical ability, through his off-the-court issues. But that's all part of being a pro.

[The_Trade_Seer]

^ Nice post ... however ... you basically described Allen Iverson in your first couple of paragraphs and the guy is a sure-fire HOF'er.

As for Joe Hammond ... there doesn't need to be any mythology, the true stories about the guy are enough.

Sweet Pea eh? Now that's some name dropping, yeah! Lloyd Daniels came strait off the streets at the age of 25 and averaged 18 points, 5.5 boards and 4 assists per 40 mins with the Spurs ... not bad ... he apparently had some severe "issues" though and just bounded around the leage, even playing for the Lakers ... he was no Joe Hammond.