Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread Part 9

[highness]

I don't think Vesely will be a bust cause he's white and European. I think he'll be a bust cause he looks like nothing more than an energy player. You don't use a top 5 pick on energy players. And how will he even fit on this team? With DeMar at the 2 we need another guy who is able to handle the ball and Vesely can't do that. I rather just go with James Johnson for now and look at next year's draft for our long-term fix at the small forward position.

[NH]

Seems like if Jimmer was black, he'd probably be the consensus 3rd pick.

Is it time for this yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqX_b_Bu4hI

[S.W.A.N]

If we draft Valanciunas I'm done as a Raptor fan. I can't remember the last time a European player was drafted that high and made any real impact. The Euro game has taken a hit over the last, oh I don't know 8 years or so they don't produce the Dirks, Manu's, Parkers anymore. And I'm not a huge fan of the Euro role player

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Not drafting a player because he from europe is stupid and ignorant and not necessarily in that order.

Val and Kanter and even Vesely for that matter are not your average finesse euro's.

Personally I don't want Vesely because I worry about the lack of shooting, but he still gets a tonne of praise from scouts and could turn out to be a great pick.

Kanter just spent a year learning from coach Cal who says he would pick him number one this year, and considering he had knight as well that is praise enough for me. That is a coach that knows how to produce nba players.

Val has excellent rebounding numbers, elite actually, and can hit free throws... Doesn't matter what league you play in, if you can do those things you will stick

Considering the players available after you get past the euro's I would be very happy to get one of them.(at this point I cheering for knight to drop but after that its go euro go)

[Prestige]

Hopefully Brandon Knight falls to us at #5 so we don't have to worry about this Kemba/Vesely/Biyombo stuff.. At this point I think I would want us to draft Knight/Kanter/Kemba/Jonas V in that order.

[Alfred]

ZERO post ability? You've admitted that you've never watched a game of his. He does have post ability. He has a hook shot that goes in more often than it doesn't. You don't know what you're talking about.

Need I remind people what your draft board looks like?

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/06/03 ... big-board/

I love the "attack the poster!" route in draft debates. Always the best sign of weakness. Especially from someone who championed "1 PER in his rookie season" Luke Babbitt at #13

And I'd wait a year before jumping on someone's big board. We'll see how people feel about Burks, Motiejunas, Kemba and Valanciunas a year from now

While I've made mistakes, your methodology is completely ridiculous, and you're actually making statements that aren't true (because you don't watch games of the players you're talking about). Saying that someone has ZERO post moves, when he does, in fact, have post moves is what I'm talking about. Absolute statements that are based on insufficient information.

Notice how you totally deflected away from the first part, where you said he has ZERO post moves, and instead decided to go after the part where I called you out for your nonsensical draft list.

And you have no qualms about revising your own past incorrect draft thoughts, like when you lied about how highly you thought of Hasheem Thabeet when ChocolateSensei called you out, for instance.

[ash_k]

Seems like if Jimmer was black, he'd probably be the consensus 3rd pick.

Either way, he will be shutdown - just like Morrison => hyped up, but their downfall is they are not pure shooter, just volume shooters with range and limited athletic abilities which usually do not translate well in the League

That is all, nothing else!

Go Raptors!

[Dr Positivity]

I didn't remember liking Thabeet because I spent like 3 posts total on him that year. As a guy who wasn't there at #9, his merits or dismerits had no impact on us and he was essentially irrelevant. When you're picking 9 everyone projected top 5 looks good from afar if they drop. And Thabeet is one of the few prospects I did see a lot of that year and happened to think looked like a pretty good player judging by his UConn play. Perhaps if I went with my method of isolating his tools, I would've had better results evaluating him.

[Silk Wilkes]

Seems like if Jimmer was black, he'd probably be the consensus 3rd pick.

Either way, he will be shutdown - just like Morrison => hyped up, but their downfall is they are not pure shooter, just volume shooters with range and limited athletic abilities which usually do not translate well in the League

That is all, nothing else!

Go Raptors!

Jimmer is nothing like Adam Morrison. Jimmer is pretty athletic, while Morrison would trip over a piece of paper on a dunk attempt. He will definitely be better than Morrison.

[Dr Positivity]

Valanciunas does not have NBA post moves. He has a little back down ability until he's next to the basket and a shot is available with his height. Which in no way will be there in the NBA with his body

[3thomas]

I really want nothing to do with Vesely; another 6'11 who is a weak rebounder and also he can't shoot the ball that's all I need to know.

Val I'm indifferent to however I dont see BC going for him, time and time again he said the answer to our problems in the front court could only be temporarily adressed via this draft.

If Utah is so high on Jimmer and he is climbing his way up the draft. Then why won't we extend an invitation to him for a workout here! Stir-up the pot a bit. Maybe provide Utah with a reason to trade thire high pick or alternatively cut a deal?

[Basketball_Jones]

Jimmer can ball. He actually has handles. The problem is, can he play point? Combo guards are nice, but rarely are they good enough to start. Also, there's his defence. But I can somewhat give him a pass on that if he's great offensively. After all, he will be guarding Westbrook/Rose/Wall/etc. so I'm not expecting lock down potential here.

[dagger]

I thought it interesting to look at top 100 ratings instead of mock drafts
You see a great deal of difference here after the first two picks

Chad Ford
Top 100 Prospects

1 Kyrie Irving
2 Derrick Williams
3 Brandon Knight
4 Jan Vesely
5 Enes Kanter
6 Jonas Valanciunas
7 Kawhi Leonard
8 Kemba Walker
9 Chris Singleton
10 Tristan Thompson
11 Bismack Biyombo
12 Klay Thompson
13 Alec Burks
14 Jimmer Fredette


DX top 100


1 Kyrie Irving
2 Derrick Williams
3 Bismack Biyombo
4 Jonas Valanciunas
5 Kemba Walker
6 Brandon Knight
7 Nikola Mirotic
8 Marcus Morris
9 Tobias Harris
10 Kawhi Leonard
11 Jan Vesely
12 Enes Kanter
13 Jordan Hamilton
14 Alec Burks

[JYD]

Ford has both Kanter and Vesely way too high, though I agree with his Walker placement, and Givony likely has Biyombo and Harris too high. Then you have guys like Singleton and Mirotic who could make either of them look smart. Overall I think Givony is more on in touch with reality though.

[PowerPhil15]

Seems like if Jimmer was black, he'd probably be the consensus 3rd pick.

Either way, he will be shutdown - just like Morrison => hyped up, but their downfall is they are not pure shooter, just volume shooters with range and limited athletic abilities which usually do not translate well in the League

That is all, nothing else!

Go Raptors!

if you at all watched any of his games which i know you havent you would know that at the minimum 1/3 of his buckets are drives to the net. So no he wont be shut down like morrison. he has no limit to his offensive game and one of the best in the ncaa last year to create and 1 plays and even drive and kick to his teamates.

give me a break

[7-Day Dray]

Jimmer is a baller! A new scout for NBADraft.net has this series called "JNixon-Iggy9's (his forum username) Countdown to the Draft: 60 Prospects in 30 Days. He has Jimmer at #5 on his board. He's the best scout I know and I value what he says very highly. Here's what he had to say about Jimmer.

5: Jimmer Fredette, 6’2 196, PG, BYU, Sr.

Wow. CRAZY good basketball player for BYU over his last 2 or 3 years. Teams threw all kinds of defense at him, he lost the only other truly talented player on the BYU in Brandon Davies to end his Sr. season, and he still was remarkably efficient for all that he faced, and got them to the Sweet 16. He got national notoriety during his Sr. year, but he really was great his Jr. season as well, some may argue even better. Very well-spoken and seems to be humble and nice. Has some unique stories about his growing up. Plays with a very even demeanor on the court and it’s extremely rare for him to lose composure. Physically, Fredette has good size for an NBA PG, as he’s 6’2 and a shade under 200 lbs with a strong build and an average 6’4 wingspan. Athletically, Fredette shows pretty good quickness and agility, but he’s not an explosive guy at all in terms of leaping or his speed, being just alright in both instances.

Quite the offensive talent, really, really good player on this end. Hard to talk about Jimmer without discussing his UNREAL shooting skills. Possesses a very soft touch, good release speed, and great elevation. Absolutely incredible range, out consistently to around 30 feet. Most range since Salim Stoudamire came out of Arizona in 05. What Fredette particularly special as a shooter if the fact that he can shoot just as well with his feet set, as he does off the dribble or off screens. Real compact shooter off the dribble, who can go from dribble to shot instantaneously. Super confident and must be accounted for as soon as he passes half-court. Makes some shots that make you go “Wow, really?” Took bad shots as a Sr., but definitely was much better in shot selection all of his other years when the team had more balance. Fredette certainly isn’t a slouch as a slasher either. Possesses some strong crossovers and hesitation moves. Is a strong slasher who uses his jump shot to set up slashing lanes. Possesses a solid 1st step, but he likes to utilize crossovers as opposed to a quick 1st step to set his defender up to better attack and get a step on his man. Had a fairly predictable right-left/left-right crossover that guys (mainly Jacob Pullen and Malcolm Lee) picked up on, but he’s added more crossovers to his arsenal since then. The threat of his pull-up jumper makes him extremely tough to contain in isolation. Has effective floaters and runners in the lane. Understands weakside defense and occasionally will beat his man AND shield himself from help D, which is very impressive. Still, he struggles at times with length and athleticism when at the rim and dealing with helpside D. Capable of making impressive lay-ins, shielding the ball from shot-blockers using the rim and the net. Has mastered the scoop shot. Impressive pick and roll player, both as a shooter, passer and slasher. Unselfish player, who some think is a scorer based on how he looked as a Sr. He clearly is more of a PG to me, as evidenced by his Soph. and especially his Jr. seasons were he quarterbacked some solid BYU teams. Capable of finding open shooters in the drive and dish. Shows a high IQ. Will be able to play alongside a ball-dominant guard, and he shows the ability to play off-ball some. Solid transition player.

Fredette’s playing for a team with limited talent forced him to conserve energy, and not play all that hard on this end. Almost always closes out slowly on shooters, and isn’t very good denying dribble penetration. Not going to be much of a threat in the passing lanes. Plays a bit upright and lateral quickness is limted. Never going to be a truly good defender, but he has the ability to be just good enough to defend long enough to were his team D can bottle up his man. And the lessened load of offensive responsibility will also allow him to exert more energy on this end.

Fredette is a gifted offensive weapon who will be a very good NBA player, I have no doubts. His jump shot is great, he was really efficient despite the shots he took oftentimes, and he’s smart. He’s been a PG, with success, and he’s clearly an unselfish player so I have no doubts he’ll play the position well in the NBA. His defense won’t be very good, sure, but he won’t be a liability either. I think Fredette is similar to a Dallas Mavs version of Steve Nash, and I think he’ll go on to have a great career.

He thinks that Jimmer will be a very good NBA player. I think he's very underrated on this board and by everyone on this site.

[Chuck Newhouse]

I agree Power Phil...I am not sure why people don't notice he has an unbelievable hesitation move. It is easily the best I have ever seen at any level of basketball, yet few seem to have noticed it.

[raptoratode]

Do you guys think that Cleveland will consider giving up the #1 pick for Derozan or Ed? I know i'm gonna be flamed for this but here me out.

IMHO I believe that Irving is the type of game changer, albeit not necessarily a franchise player, that neither DD or Ed are. I know we value both of these guys with a passion and are great character guys and huge fan favourites but if it means getting Irving, you consider it.

Thoughts? Will any of these two cut it for Cleveland to consider giving up the pick?

[ash_k]

if you at all watched any of his games which i know you havent you would know that at the minimum 1/3 of his buckets are drives to the net. So no he wont be shut down like morrison. he has no limit to his offensive game and one of the best in the ncaa last year to create and 1 plays and even drive and kick to his teamates.

give me a break

just like Morrison, he will be shutdown. Cause do you actually believe 1. he will make the same shot with the type of athlete you see in the league (length and all) covering him. 2 to compare; Nash is a pure shooter with Vision, Jimmer is a volume shooter with limited vision 3. It is the NBA, so you might want to balance your NBA's watching with NCAA's "watching" to better understand 4. Which coach will let a volume shooter with limited athletic ability out there jack up shot? 5. Do you honestly think he will be able to drive to basket in this league? 6. Dont be fooled by the Mark Price comparison; Mark Price was a "Pure shooter" 7. Steve Kerr was more effective that Jimmer will ever be 8. Unathletic, no pure-shooting and short combo guard, cmon

Give me a break

[DarkKnight]

if you at all watched any of his games which i know you havent you would know that at the minimum 1/3 of his buckets are drives to the net. So no he wont be shut down like morrison. he has no limit to his offensive game and one of the best in the ncaa last year to create and 1 plays and even drive and kick to his teamates.

give me a break

just like Morrison, he will be shutdown. Cause do you actually believe 1. he will make the same shot with the type of athlete you see in the league (length and all) covering him. 2 to compare; Nash is a pure shooter with Vision, Jimmer is a volume shooter with limited vision 3. It is the NBA, so you might want to balance your NBA's watching with NCAA's "watching" to better understand 4. Which coach will let a volume shooter with limited athletic ability out there jack up shot? 5. Do you honestly think he will be able to drive to basket in this league? 6. Dont be fooled by the Mark Price comparison; Mark Price was a "Pure shooter" 7. Steve Kerr was more effective that Jimmer will ever be 8. Unathletic, no pure-shooting and short combo guard, cmon

Give me a break

I can't tell if you're trolling or serious. If you're serious, it's clear you don't understand the term "volume shooter" in the way it is generally applied to players. You also seem to have no idea what a "pure shooter" is. You are likely correct that he is a combo guard and my feeling on him is that he's Jamal Crawford (not a bad thing, I think crawford is an absolute game changer for Atlanta). But he's not short (pretty solid PG size), he is a pure shooter, and he's not a volume shooter.

For edification purposes: Volume shooters are guys with big point totals and poor shooting percentages. Jimmer has bug point total on crazy good percentages, which he did while contstantly the focus of attention for every defense. Kemba Walker was a volume scorer and is not a pure shooter. Jimmer is the purest shooter in the draft, probably for years. TS% around 60 every year takes you a LONG way from Volume Shooter. And hitting 40% of your threes, many from way beyond the college 3, while constantly double teamed - that's a pure shooter. Any clip package shows his form - pretty much as pure as it gets.

[Tough Tony D]

I can't tell if you're trolling or serious. If you're serious, it's clear you don't understand the term "volume shooter" in the way it is generally applied to players. You also seem to have no idea what a "pure shooter" is. You are likely correct that he is a combo guard and my feeling on him is that he's Jamal Crawford (not a bad thing, I think crawford is an absolute game changer for Atlanta). But he's not short (pretty solid PG size), he is a pure shooter, and he's not a volume shooter.

For edification purposes: Volume shooters are guys with big point totals and poor shooting percentages. Jimmer has bug point total on crazy good percentages, which he did while contstantly the focus of attention for every defense. Kemba Walker was a volume scorer and is not a pure shooter. Jimmer is the purest shooter in the draft, probably for years. TS% around 60 every year takes you a LONG way from Volume Shooter. And hitting 40% of your threes, many from way beyond the college 3, while constantly double teamed - that's a pure shooter. Any clip package shows his form - pretty much as pure as it gets.

While Kemba was facing Teams like Kentucky, Texas, Michigan St., Louisville, Arizona, Marquette etc. Jimmer was facing the likes of UNLV, Gonzagua, Utah St, Wofford, Wyoming etc. 2 different kind of opposition.