39,000 and strong!

[Shamizy]

I think Dwyane Wade is mad overrated by a ton of people. I've read stuff during the Finals stating that if Wade would have won another title, a Wade/Kobe debate would become plausible. And about how he may potentially be the 3rd greatest shooting guard in NBA history. Or how he's closer to Jordan than Kobe.

My head then exploded.

[Gek]

lol relax Ryan comparing Wade to Bynum was supposed a joke. It fits because they're both always injured.

What about my post wasn't relaxed? Everything need not be accompanied by lawls or hahahahahahahahaha.

[Jetset]

We'll revert back to this thread once we see a healthy Kobe Bryant next season and what the outcome of it will be.

Fine with me. I'm not knocking Kobe and his talent at all and hoping he comes back next season healthy and destroys the league. But the question was who is "currently" the best player in the league, not who's going to be the best next season. And with that said I think the honor goes to LeBron.

HOW??? How in the world that he should be proclaimed as the best player in the game while he is the second fiddle on the Miami Heat team and Jason Terry outscoring, outwit him in the biggest stage of the game. If you said it is Wade or Dirk then this one deserves some respect to debate about. How? Lebron??? He is not even the best player on his own team. All he has is his driving and passing ability. He is the "sometimes shooter" like Pippen was. Can go hot, but most of the time is sometimes. Once Dallas cut his driving ability off with the zone defense then he became a decoy at its best. He folded up under the unwanted pressure that the best players would thrive on. The honor of best player in the game goes to him? If it is the regular season's best player then sure. Best in the game and where the legends are made is the biggest stage of the game. Come on, man. You telling me it is Dirk or Wade then I respect it.

Sounds to me like you have a personal problem with LeBron tbh. You don't like him so instead of respecting him as a player, you tend to dissect him more than you would any other player. I don't particularly care for LeBron and defending my opinion has made me seem as if I'm a fan of his, which I'm not. But so far all I've seen from this thread is you guys saying that since LeBron doesn't have this "killer instinct" or "clutch gene" he is nowhere near the best player. As if those are what we solely base players on. Yeah those things make good for late game theatrics, but that isn't all that basketball is about. LeBron could be the same player he is right now, but I bet if he had a "killer instinct" you all wouldn't nearly bash him as much as you do. Again I don't like the guy either but to discredit the man's game all because he doesn't have a "killer instinct" is flat out idiotic.

And to your bolded second fiddle comment, if you watched Miami throughout the season that team clearly belonged to LeBron James. As he faded, so did the Heat's chances of winning. In fact if LeBron wasn't on the Heat, Miami would've lost to Chicago. I remember when LeBron closed out the MVP and the Bulls, how people were saying his clutch gene may be starting to show. Now look a few weeks later and a Finals loss, LeBron can't even close a zip-lock bag according to some of you. And we're just supposed to forget what he did in the last series. What have you done for me lately, right?

So wait, Wade or Dirk being the best player in the league makes more sense than LeBron? As I said earlier, Wade has carried his team out of the 1st round of the playoffs once in four years. That makes talk of him being the best in the league hysterical. Dirk? Why is Dirk all of a sudden better than LeBron? Is it because of "clutch gene"? Because their respective games haven't really changed all that much in a year's time, and I'm almost certain you didn't have Dirk over LeBron last year. I bet Dirk wasn't even in your top 5 during the preseason but now that Dirk has some hardware coming his way, it automatically justifies him being better than LeBron. A miracle run in the playoffs and all of a sudden Dirk is a folk hero and a top player of the league. What have you done for me lately, right?

I think Dwyane Wade is mad overrated by a ton of people. I've read stuff during the Finals stating that if Wade would have won another title, a Wade/Kobe debate would become plausible. And about how he may potentially be the 3rd greatest shooting guard in NBA history. Or how he's closer to Jordan than Kobe.

My head then exploded.

He truly is. And some people actually believe that he's the best player, and I just don't see it. For whatever reason it seems as if you can only be the best player in the game if you resemble or have traits of MJ. And Kobe along with Wade benefit from this, even though they're both clearly not at the top of their respective games. MJ wasn't the only great player to play in the league, there was another player named Magic Johnson in which LeBron resembles. But I guess because Magic hasn't had the amount of impact Jordan has had in the league that makes being anything less than Jordan unacceptable.

[The Skyhook]

LeBron is the best athlete in the league, not the best basketball player.

If we're talking basketball from just a skill standpoint then obviously Kobe is the best. But if we're talking from an overall mixture of talent, skill, and athleticism LeBron is clearly the best player at this point.

I would take Wade any day over Lebron.

I'd take Dwight over both. I'm not even talking about the its its for the Lakers.

[Desiderium]

Sounds to me like you have a personal problem with LeBron tbh. You don't like him so instead of respecting him as a player, you tend to dissect him more than you would any other player. I don't particularly care for LeBron and defending my opinion has made me seem as if I'm a fan of his, which I'm not. But so far all I've seen from this thread is you guys saying that since LeBron doesn't have this "killer instinct" or "clutch gene" he is nowhere near the best player. As if those are what we solely base players on. Yeah those things make good for late game theatrics, but that isn't all that basketball is about. LeBron could be the same player he is right now, but I bet if he had a "killer instinct" you all wouldn't nearly bash him as much as you do. Again I don't like the guy either but to discredit the man's game all because he doesn't have a "killer instinct" is flat out idiotic.

And to your bolded second fiddle comment, if you watched Miami throughout the season that team clearly belonged to LeBron James. As he faded, so did the Heat's chances of winning. In fact if LeBron wasn't on the Heat, Miami would've lost to Chicago. I remember when LeBron closed out the MVP and the Bulls, how people were saying his clutch gene may be starting to show. Now look a few weeks later and a Finals loss, LeBron can't even close a zip-lock bag according to some of you. And we're just supposed to forget what he did in the last series. What have you done for me lately, right?

first thing, i think you misinterpreted his post. he's simply stating why he thinks lebron is not the best player in the league, and to be honest, his vision is shared by many basketball fans.

and you said it in your second post, "AS HE FADED." the best players in the league can afford to fade in non-crucial moments, such as regular season games. but this is the NBA finals! you could tell lebron lost ALL confidence in that last game. he simply surrendered.

Now you might say, "well kobe sucked in game 7 last year too." you're right, he did, but he saw that his team was still in a position to win it, and he came up big in the 4th. thats what great players do, not give you their best for 3 quarters and then say "ok i'm done" as that was clear in lebrons case. lebrons a great player, don't get me wrong, but to say he's the best player is premature. he has the potential to be the best, but he aint quiet there yet.
i will tell you this. if both lebron and kobe went 0-15 in 3 quarters, i'd want the ball in the hands of kobe rather than lebron when it's 4th quarter time.

[Jetset]

Sounds to me like you have a personal problem with LeBron tbh. You don't like him so instead of respecting him as a player, you tend to dissect him more than you would any other player. I don't particularly care for LeBron and defending my opinion has made me seem as if I'm a fan of his, which I'm not. But so far all I've seen from this thread is you guys saying that since LeBron doesn't have this "killer instinct" or "clutch gene" he is nowhere near the best player. As if those are what we solely base players on. Yeah those things make good for late game theatrics, but that isn't all that basketball is about. LeBron could be the same player he is right now, but I bet if he had a "killer instinct" you all wouldn't nearly bash him as much as you do. Again I don't like the guy either but to discredit the man's game all because he doesn't have a "killer instinct" is flat out idiotic.

And to your bolded second fiddle comment, if you watched Miami throughout the season that team clearly belonged to LeBron James. As he faded, so did the Heat's chances of winning. In fact if LeBron wasn't on the Heat, Miami would've lost to Chicago. I remember when LeBron closed out the MVP and the Bulls, how people were saying his clutch gene may be starting to show. Now look a few weeks later and a Finals loss, LeBron can't even close a zip-lock bag according to some of you. And we're just supposed to forget what he did in the last series. What have you done for me lately, right?

first thing, i think you misinterpreted his post. he's simply stating why he thinks lebron is not the best player in the league, and to be honest, his vision is shared by many basketball fans.

and you said it in your second post, "AS HE FADED." the best players in the league can afford to fade in non-crucial moments, such as regular season games. but this is the NBA finals! you could tell lebron lost ALL confidence in that last game. he simply surrendered.

Now you might say, "well kobe sucked in game 7 last year too." you're right, he did, but he saw that his team was still in a position to win it, and he came up big in the 4th. thats what great players do, not give you their best for 3 quarters and then say "ok i'm done" as that was clear in lebrons case. lebrons a great player, don't get me wrong, but to say he's the best player is premature. he has the potential to be the best, but he aint quiet there yet.
i will tell you this. if both lebron and kobe went 0-15 in 3 quarters, i'd want the ball in the hands of kobe rather than lebron when it's 4th quarter time.

So from reading your post Kobe is the better player because he has mental toughness and "clutch". We get so caught up in late game theatrics that we think that's all the game is about. Jordan would be the one to tell you it's not just about how you perform in the 4th, but how you perform all 48 minutes. Sometimes games are won before the 4th quarter. I've seen players dominate an entire game and basically put their team in a position to win the game, just to get overlooked whenever a player makes a game winning shot. Why should the person that takes over within the last few seconds and makes one basket receive all the credit over the person who dominated the entire game? That just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. And you make seem as if LeBron is totally useless in the 4th quarter. Disregard what you saw in the Finals because clearly he wasn't mentally in the game, but in the Chicago series he was heavily active in the 4th and went on to close Chicago out. Which goes back to my theory of a player not being able to be the best in the league unless he has a "killer's mentality" or MJ traits. Michael Jordan isn't going to be duplicated, so people need to stop comparing players to him. The only way LeBron is any less of a player is if he's compared to MJ which people need to stop doing all together.

[Slava]

Well.. while I agree that late game performance should not be the only thing that gets a player credit, its all important to get your team to the finish line as a leader and best player.

You don't get medals for running the first 90m fastest in a sprint, you get medals for crossing the line. If you can't cross the line, it doesn't matter how good your technique is. Lebron has yet to cross the line and get that win.

[Gek]

You know who has crossed that finish line? Wade. I think he is the closest thing to another Kobe we'll see for awhile and since Kobe has been the best player in the league for a long time, I think Wade should be in the argument. Ignoring Kobe's pre-22 years (puts him at the age he'd have been if he'd have gone to college) and compare that to Wade (minus his rookie season) and you get these career averages:


Wade: 26.5 PPG, 6.6 APG, 5.1 RPG
Bryant: 28.2 PPG, 5.2 APG, 5.7 RPG


Wade: 6'4", 212lbs
Bryant: 6'6", 200lbs



I see similarities in their play styles as well. Both were/are known for their abilities to get to the rim and make explosive, circus dunks and shots. Wade is developing his jumpshot just like Kobe had to when he was maturing in the league. Both played with Shaq . Wade sold out though, which is going to keep him from becoming someone of status like Kobe. Not sure if he has the will or overall intelligence/drive, but I think the skill set is there.

[3-Pt_Shooter]

LeBron is the best athlete in the league, not the best basketball player.

If we're talking basketball from just a skill standpoint then obviously Kobe is the best. But if we're talking from an overall mixture of talent, skill, and athleticism LeBron is clearly the best player at this point.

Look, you also have to factor in the intangibles such as competitive will and the killer instinct it takes to put forth your best performance when its needed the most.

Lebron is still a young (26 yrs) guy but he's been in the League awhile now. And he's had plenty of NBA Playoff and Finals experience to show those intangibles and to draw from... Lebron is by far the best athlete in the League and has had some pretty special performances, but he isn't even close to being on the same level as Kobe as a basketball player.

[Desiderium]

jetset let me ask you this, would jordan be considered what he is today if it weren't for his late game heroics/championships? jordan had that competitive edge, he HAD to be the best on both teams that were playing. lebron was as effective as jason terry imo during these finals. clearly, wade and dirk outplayed, outshined, and straight out outhustled lebron. to me, thats not the definition of "best player." oh and here's a bit of stats i found on other forums:

Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3

also, lets assume miami won the championship, im 99% positive wade would have won the finals mvp...how can you say lebron's the best player if he doesnt win the finals mvp??

[Jetset]

LeBron is the best athlete in the league, not the best basketball player.

If we're talking basketball from just a skill standpoint then obviously Kobe is the best. But if we're talking from an overall mixture of talent, skill, and athleticism LeBron is clearly the best player at this point.

Look, you also have to factor in the intangibles such as competitive will and the killer instinct it takes to put forth your best performance when its needed the most.

Lebron is still a young (26 yrs) guy but he's been in the League awhile now. And he's had plenty of NBA Playoff and Finals experience to show those intangibles and to draw from... Lebron is by far the best athlete in the League and has had some pretty special performances, but he isn't even close to being on the same level as Kobe as a basketball player.

Sometimes I just think people value the person who takes the game winning shot more so than the work horse that works his ass off all game and puts his team in position to win games. Not that I'm referring to Kobe with that statement, but I just think it to be truth. Being clutch is overrated.

jetset let me ask you this, would jordan be considered what he is today if it weren't for his late game heroics/championships? jordan had that competitive edge, he HAD to be the best on both teams that were playing. lebron was as effective as jason terry imo during these finals. clearly, wade and dirk outplayed, outshined, and straight out outhustled lebron. to me, thats not the definition of "best player." oh and here's a bit of stats i found on other forums:

Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3

also, lets assume miami won the championship, im 99% positive wade would have won the finals mvp...how can you say lebron's the best player if he doesnt win the finals mvp??

He probably wouldn't but the whole argument that I've been trying to make is late game heroics isn't all that basketball is about. And now we're going back to my two other posts in which I said that it's unfair to compare LeBron to Jordan because it's obvious that LeBron is nowhere near that type of player. No one is going to be Jordan and I wish people would stop trying to make players into the next MJ. Instead of trying to find the next MJ, just enjoy the LeBron's, Dirk's and Durant's of the league.

Just because you win the Final's MVP doesn't mean you're the overall best player on the team, you were just the best player in the series. And it was debatable last year that Pau should've won the MVP over Bryant. Some people think Pau is the best player on the Lakers.

[kobe808lak]

MVP over Bryant. Some people think Pau is the best player on the Lakers.[/quote]

Bryant was absolutely the best player on the lakers in the finals last year. If you watched the entire series, it should have been obvious to you.

[TruSkool]

with a gun to my head, and looking at this years playoffs, im picking dirk nowitzki. but damn, lebron is just right there too

[PurpleGold]

Doozy, I don't think anyone is arguing that Kobe isn't the most skilled player in the league. He is. But that doesn't mean he's the best. James has been better since 2008. In the end, its all about the production, and at this point in their careers, LeBron surpasses him. Its just like Shaq vs Hakeem back then. Hakeems skill level was on another level but Shaq was more dominant due to his size and power/strength. He was just more physically gifted. Why does it matter how he does it as long as he gets it done? I don't know how anyone can make a case for kobe anymore. The poll should be renamed "Who is your favorite player?"