Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4

[GhostsOfGil]

chad ford is reporting vesley is working out for wiz this week.

"Jan Vesley will hold a special workout in NJ on Sunday for the Raptors, Pistons, Kings and Wizards"

[Hoopalotta]

3:55 is pretty impressive too. I guess we can take the Wiz at their word when they say they think they'll be happy with whatever player at 6, if it turns out they can't trade up. Jan does look like he'd run well next to Wall, though we still need rebounders and he still needs a jumper and a sandwich or some creatine.

I do like that he plays heavy minutes on a winning squad. And I like his passion, kid clearly loves to compete. So I'll shrug and give the benefit of the doubt if he's the pick.

+1 well put. ive heard a lot of bad things about the kid but i agree, he looks like another great running mate to pair with wall. does anyone know his natural position?

I'm shocked that the highlight video didn't show examples of his poor hands and weak inside play. Shocked I tell you. Show them in dramatic slow mo.

cough*JoeAlexander*cough*flippingburgers*cough*

I actually thought that the way he was cupping the ball with his wrists in some of those plays were to compensate for his lack of grip. It was a nice reel, though.

Other news/confirmations from our former beat guy:

@daldridgetnt Just so you're clear: there is no way the Wizards include @JaValeMcGee34 in any deal to move up to two. @MrMichaelLee reporting same.

[dangermouse]

especially since many within the organization believe that the 23-year-old McGee would be deemed a top three-to-five pick if he were in the draft this year.

I got blasted for this opinion by at least one wizboard regular, not sure if it was this thread or another. Also got blasted by Minny fans and others on the trade board for the same opinion.

Good to know my opinion wasnt way off base, and people who get paid for this kind of thing shared my, and others, feelings of where McGee would go in this draft.

If McGee and #18 isnt enough, forget it entirely. McGee + #18 +#34 for #2 + Webster. If they ask for any more than that, hang up and rip the cord out of the wall.

[WallTown02]

Well I think this is nuts. Just to make sure you realize what we are talking about here:

Marc Gasol 26 years old: 11.7 pts, 7.0 rebs, 1.7 Blk, 16.88 PER, $3.4M salary (obviously getting a raise)
Nene 28 years old: 14.5 pts, 7.6 rebs, 1.0 blk, 20.49 PER, $11.3M
Tyson Chandler 28 years old: 10.1 pts, 9.4 rebs, 1.1 blks, 18.45 PER, $12.75M
Kendrick Perkins 26 years old: 5.1 pts, 7.9 rebs, .9 blks, 9.6 PER, $6.4M
Javale 23 years old: 10.1 pts, 8.0 rebs, 2.4 blks, 17.42 PER, $1.6M with $2.4M next season and a $3.4M qualifying offer in 12/13

edit: Tyson Chandler's season at 23 years old: 5.3 pts, 9.0 rebs, 1.3 blks, 12.2 PER

So I'll offer that up as what I believe to be the common sense that Javale McGee should be untouchable for the next two seasons if only as a cheap big body. Yet it's a cheap big body with unlimited upside

I'm usually just a lurker, but I really felt like I needed to give my two cents on the McGee discussion. I read this board daily because I think there are alot of really knowledgable wiz fans on here with some great ideas. However, I can't understand why so many of you are so confident in McGee.

I watch just about every wiz game. I'm no expert, but when i'm watching a game, I think I can tell who's playing well, players strengths and weaknesses, and generally what's going on in the game.

Over the past three years (1.5 if you want to count significant minutes only), I don't see how you guys are so confident in McGee. Sure he's produced solid numbers for a young center, but anyone simply watching the games can see how many blatent boneheaded plays and mistakes are made just about every game. I don't care if he has a 15 and 15 game if he allowed every player to score at will in the paint.

McGee has some serious issues.

- He's a terrible defender through the first three years of his career. Constantly lost, getting out of position going for a block, too slow to get in position, or simply pushed around.
- He's not a good defensive rebounder because he rarely ever boxes out and only relies on his freakish athleticism to outjump people.
- He thinks he's better than he is and believes he should have had the ball more even though the majority of his baskets are on putbacks, ally oops, or simple dunks. Sure he has some nice driving by his guy layups, but do we really want to rely on that at the end of the a tight game.
- When coaches tell him the things that they want from him, he has no idea what they're asking.
- It's obvious that he cares more about his highlights and individual plays than about team.
- He says things like "100 push ups a day to avoid the trainer"

I know some believe that he will add more weight which will help him on D and for rebounding, but I think the issue is more about his mindset. He doesnt want to bang, ever. Some players like KG are skinny but give the effort on D and still bang inside, and fight for rebounds. He doesn't have that mindset. He wants to jump over people for rebounds and blocks.

In the end, I just don't see how so many of you think he will overcome these flaws. I think the best teams bigs protect the paint and get boards. Offense is a bonus, but the D and boards are what matters.

If we keep McGee, then I hope he proves me wrong. I just want the wiz to win. However, I just think we have better odds with a player like Williams or Kanter than McGee. (not even considering his contract status)

We'll see. End rant...

GO WIZ!


[url][url][/url][/url]

[WizarDynasty]

Ruzious is right.

If Vesely had good strong hands, I'd be satisfied with him as the pick. I'm wary of guys who fumble the ball in traffic or who get stripped alot. Vesely is going to be that. He also rebounds like a point guard despite being 6 foot freaking 11. He makes Bargnani look like Rodman on the glass.

Honestly still don't see what this guy or Kawhi Leonard has on Marcus Morris. MM is a more complete player than both of them.

i wouldn't worry to much about his hands, this a seven footer who can do a eurostep on a fast break, a guy who can dribble from the free throw line, and finish with a dunk in traffic. i have seen him drive with his right and finish with his left on the right side of the basket.
He will fumble the ball if he gets hacked and doesn't power through arm grabs but refs should call the foul.
His hands are coordinated enough to catch alley hoops from half court.
marcus morris is an offensively savy player mentally but he is physically challenged. If he had physical gifts to combine with his advanced offensive mental awareness, he would be a star.
The problem with Marcus is that a physically defensive player negates morris's high offensive mental awareness. Marcus has to work much harder against a physically gifted defender because he doesn't have the physical athleticism to create an advantage.
On top of that, marcus doesn't have a physical tools to have a sustained impact on the game defensively. A physically gifted defender's only weakness is his defensive awareness and if he has a high aptitude for understanding defensive concepts, his defensive awareness will improve. Marcus will never have the physical tools forever in his career and has to rely on others to create a defensive advantage that favors his team because he loses in most physical talent matchups each night because he won't have a standing reach advantage, he won't have a lateral quickness advantage and he won't have a first explosion advantage against a physically gifted nba small forward.
If he were going up against granger, pierce, j.smith, G.Wallace, S. Marion, C.Anthony, T.Prince, A.Iggy, Deng --Magic, Cavaliers, Nets, doesn't have small forward so he might work again them, Mbah Moute--loses.
Vesely has the quickness and at 6'11 with long arm, the standing reach to force all of these players to change their shooting motion out on the perimeter.
He also can still block shots even if he is beat to the hole. Marcus will never have that. Vesely's shot may not fall some nights but you can always rely on his ability to alter shots on the perimeter consistently every game even if his shot isn't falling thus helping you win. If marcus isn't hitting a mentally crafty shot over a defender, he can't help you win the game. Secondly Vesely is giving Wall a finisher every play. He is giving Wall a target every time the opponents collapses and double on wall and Vesely goes up like McGee and gets them and we all have seen that Wall absolutely loves throwing alley hoops off the dribble.
I definitely don't see marcus going up in the air and finishing walls passes at all. marcus may work on other teams but wall is a speed demon with a high motor that is sprinting on every possession. Vesely is the same way, sprint and feels a lane on every possession and gets his team amped up with positive energy. Vesely values drops tremendously without a fast break point guard. We have one of the best fast break point guards of the decade and he's only going to have this supersonic speed for maybe 10 years if lucky so use it now. Vesely is higher on my board for Wall than even Kanter. Kanter helps out on the bench and solidifies us but Tyler does the same thing with a higher upside. Tyler's only has immaturity problems, not a criminal history so Vesely and Tyler would vault EG into the hall of fame GM's.
Blatche, McGee, and Young and his influence on the culture change in Wizards have vaulted his status in my view and of course the Savior's vision is the only reason we have anything to look forward to at all.
Obviously there's in humanity savior and then their is the wiz fan's savior. But getting Vesely and Tyler makes us contenders within two season's and our window stays open for 10 years or longer as long as we can keep all of our players.
I also like our option, if someone takes vesely...kanter or williams falls. We have good option however the scenario falls. what's more important is that the wizards have a situation that most of the top 6 teams will never see, a john wall type point guard. A vesely type player is never going to reach his potential with a Devin Harris running point guard because he is a scorer first/shooter. That drastically reduces Vesely's fast break value. A team like toronto who doesn't have a point guard that can force double teams on nearly every possession will see Vesely struggle to create his shot in a half court set with the ball in his hands because calderon can't consistently beat his man and force the defense to rotate or isn't a threat to finish in the paint and teams don't have to double him. Wall will finish in the paint because of his 40 inch vertical and speed and thus teams already know a man is left open every time wall drives. Vesely has more value to the wiz than the utah or toronto.

I don't see kanter as having much value to toronto or utah because both teams already have rebounding bigs but don't have shot blockers and bigs that protect the rim. Kanter will be another big that can't protect the rim. Kanter is more attractive to us because we already have McGee to protect the rim and only need Kanter to come in and bring consistent rebounding energy and not allow the other team to play 4 on 5 offensively like booker, seraphin, armstrong, and at times Yi allowed last season. Vesely only has value to us because we have wall. kanter only has value to us because we have mcgee. D.Williams becomes a negative because both he and wall need the ball in their hands and d.williams can't change the outcome of a game consistently defensively. And if all else fails and we have irving on the board to pick from we can easilty drop a few spots and pick up our two way post player that only needs a season before he becomes d.howard dominant with tyler.
Obviously we need a starting small forward so williams is an upgrade over booker but a scoring small forward who is below average defensively is usually pretty easy to find in the nba.

[tontoz]

Agree with Ruz on Vesely. Yi looked good in his highlight clips before he was drafted. BFD. I am not that impressed with a tall guy who can dunk. Show me some actual skills.

[closg00]

especially since[b] many within the organization believe that the 23-year-old McGee would be deemed a top three-to-five pick if he were in the draft this year.[/b]

I got blasted for this opinion by at least one wizboard regular, not sure if it was this thread or another. Also got blasted by Minny fans and others on the trade board for the same opinion.

Good to know my opinion wasnt way off base, and people who get paid for this kind of thing shared my, and others, feelings of where McGee would go in this draft.

If McGee and #18 isnt enough, forget it entirely. McGee + #18 +#34 for #2 + Webster. If they ask for any more than that, hang up and rip the cord out of the wall.

Hey! You were not alone, I wrote pretty-much the same thing, the JaVale haters were flooding the boards this week.

[closg00]

Agree with Ruz on Vesely. Yi looked good in his highlight clips before he was drafted. BFD. I am not that impressed with a tall guy who can dunk. Show me some actual skills.

+1 We get-it, Jan Vesely can dunk the basketball and he can run with Wall, so-what.

[montestewart]

WallTown2, your points regarding McGee's shortcomings are good and well taken. If you've been following this board for awhile, you'll know that they echo complaints made by many here. What is different now is that some of us watching at VC or on TV finally saw change in the latter half of last season. More willingness to box out, set picks, serve as a decoy, help, and he was better at not jumping at fakes--not so blocked shot obsessed. Maybe it won't last, but maybe he actually is evolving. His natural attributes are a given, but it was always a question of whether he would mature in his position. I saw enough last season to think he can make progress, and center is not an easy position to fill. Also, on top of his potential to become a decent team and individual defender and to play within a team offense, I wouldn't so easily dismiss the value of his particular scoring ability. It's not only exciting, but it can be a valuable weapon in a potent offense.

Or, we could just regret it years from now.

Oh, and welcome to the board, WallTown2.

[WallTown02]

WallTown2, your points regarding McGee's shortcomings are good and well taken. If you've been following this board for awhile, you'll know that they echo complaints made by many here. What is different now is that some of us watching at VC or on TV finally saw change in the latter half of last season. More willingness to box out, set picks, serve as a decoy, help, and he was better at not jumping at fakes--not so blocked shot obsessed. Maybe it won't last, but maybe he actually is evolving. His natural attributes are a given, but it was always a question of whether he would mature in his position. I saw enough last season to think he can make progress, and center is not an easy position to fill. Also, on top of his potential to become a decent team and individual defender and to play within a team offense, I wouldn't so easily dismiss the value of his particular scoring ability. It's not only exciting, but it can be a valuable weapon in a potent offense.

Or, we could just regret it years from now.

Oh, and welcome to the board, WallTown2.

Thanks. I've definitely enjoyed reading the board over the past few years. I'll try to post more now that I finally signed up.

I agree with your points above and I definitely believe he COULD reach his potential. I just don't think it's as likely as many around here. I hope I'm wrong.

[TGW]

WizDynasty-

I would love to think that Vesely could get away with "Eurosteps" or get the benefit of the doubt after a foul but we all know that won't be the case. Having bad hands is a legitimate negative, on par with having a short wingspan or a bad vertical. On a team with so many turnover prone players, is it a good idea to add another? And i saw your diatribe on why Marcus is not suitable to be our pick and my take is this:

Morris is a 6'9, so he is taller than many small forwards in this league including the ones you mentioned. Carmelo Anthony, who's widely regarded as the second best small forward in the league behind Lebron, is 6'7.5 in shoes (Morris is 6'8.75 in shoes), with a 8'9.5" standing reach (Morris has the exact same standing reach) and both have the exact same vertical and sprint time. Would you argue that Carmelo doesn't have the physical tools to contend in this league because he's short with an average standing reach? Of course not because Carmelo has what we call legitimate basketball skills that translate into actual performance. Things like shooting, rebounding, creating you own offense, finishing through contact, etc. Dunking is a nice skill to have, but unless your Dwight or Blake, it's not an offensive move many players can depend on. Yes, Vesely can run the floor with Wall, but will he hit an open jumpshot off a screen, grab a tough rebound in traffic, finish an and-one through contact, or hit a 15-foot baseline fadeaway with his man draped all over him? I see Marcus doing all of that consistently...I don't see Vesely doing any of that.

Defensively, I can see Vesely being better than Marcus simply because his has the better tools, but that's it. Vesely has better tools. He actually isn't a great defender at all. Ron Artest is 6'6 with an average wingspan and is arguably the best wing defender in the league, so being tall and long isn't everything.

In conclusion, I think Morris is going to be way better than Vesely and Leornard. Just my 2 cents.

[sfam]

WallTown2, your points regarding McGee's shortcomings are good and well taken. If you've been following this board for awhile, you'll know that they echo complaints made by many here. What is different now is that some of us watching at VC or on TV finally saw change in the latter half of last season. More willingness to box out, set picks, serve as a decoy, help, and he was better at not jumping at fakes--not so blocked shot obsessed. Maybe it won't last, but maybe he actually is evolving. His natural attributes are a given, but it was always a question of whether he would mature in his position. I saw enough last season to think he can make progress, and center is not an easy position to fill. Also, on top of his potential to become a decent team and individual defender and to play within a team offense, I wouldn't so easily dismiss the value of his particular scoring ability. It's not only exciting, but it can be a valuable weapon in a potent offense.

Or, we could just regret it years from now.

Oh, and welcome to the board, WallTown2.

Thanks. I've definitely enjoyed reading the board over the past few years. I'll try to post more now that I finally signed up.

I agree with your points above and I definitely believe he COULD reach his potential. I just don't think it's as likely as many around here. I hope I'm wrong.

This really the jist of the debate. McGee has great potential but will his grey matter get in the way of him reaching it? I think a good case can be made to move him if the price is right but we are taking a risk. McGee for the #2 is a debateable risk - him + the #6 is way too much.

[7-Day Dray]

A new scout for NBADraft.net has this series called "JNixon-Iggy9’s (his forum username) Countdown to the Draft: 60 Prospects in 30 Days. He has Vesely at #6 on his board. He’s the best scout I know and I value what he says very highly. Here’s what he had to say about Vesely.

6: Jan Vesely, 6’11 240, PF/SF, KK Partizan Belgrade (Serbia), 21 years old

Vesely is a Euro prospect who has been known in scouting circles for a while, and he was a very likely lottery pick in the 2010 draft but he returned to Europe. There is considerable talent and potential in Vesely, and just enough ready-made ability to allow him to contribute a bit early on in his rookie year as well. Physically, Vesely is great. At 6’11 240, he’s an oversized combo forward. His size and length will make him huge for a SF, and he’s got more than enough size to compete at PF too. He could stand to get bigger and improve his strength though. Athletically, from what I’ve seen Vesely is also great. He runs well and shows great explosiveness and leaping ability. He’s also pretty quick, especially for his size.

Offensively, Vesely is pretty good right now despite not having considerable polish. As a shooter, he’s a bit shaky though. His release is high and he has the added advance of being 6’11, but his touch isn’t great although his mechanics are consistent and somewhat smooth. He will need a lot of reps and to work on making his mechanics more natural before he becomes dependable with his feet set or off 1 or 2 dribbles. It’s also worth mentioning that he has never shot better than 67.4% from the FT line, so he’s a bad free throw shooter, which speaks to his touch and need to improve. As a slasher, Vesely is better from the mid-range area against PF’s where he usually has a quickness advantage than he is on the wing against SF’s. His ball-handling skills aren’t great from around the arc, and he generally doesn’t create in isolation against SF’s. Only effective for 2-3 dribbles. Lucky for Vesely, and one of the main reasons he should be able to play early is that he doesn’t need to handle the ball a lot to be effective right now. Outstanding motor allows him to score off scraps plays. Willing and competitive player. Is outstanding in transition, one of the very best in this class, and sprints the floor and finishes emphatically in the open floor. Rarely looks to lay the ball in when close to the rim, and is more than capable of finishing very strong in traffic. Has developed the ability to post up SF’s. He’s extremely oversized for the position, so although he’s not super skilled down low and relies on a right handed jump hook and a quick drop step to get shots off, it’s a positive development. As he continues to add base strength, that skill will only get better. Not selfish as a passer.

Defensively, Vesely has potential but some concerns as well. Right now, his athleticism and length will allow him to be a versatile pick and roll defender and he should be able to effectively guard SF’s and PF’s in time. Right now he can struggle to guard PF’s due to his lack of great strength, and he struggles to contain the quicker SF’s too. Is a wee bit foul prone at times due to his struggles with matching up with certain types of players on this end, but as he gets stronger it should become less of a concern. He is a solid ball-thief and shot-blocker though, as his length and leaping skills help him greatly. Where Vesely really struggles at and puts a dapper on his ability to play extended time at PF is his rebounding skills. He’s a very mediocre rebounder, and well below average for someone with his level of athleticism and physical tools. That will have to improve.

Vesely has huge potential, and his skill level is developing. His ability to play without having to handle the ball a ton will be a tool that should allow him to get on the floor very soon and play solid rotation time for a rookie. Still, he’s a work in progress with his skill set offensively and his struggles right now defending a certain position make it likely that he will run into problems with fouls as he did overseas. Sooner or later though, Vesely will be a solid starting SF for a team. His defensive ability will improve in time, as it’s not a matter of athleticism, he just has to improve his physical tools and strength.

Sure he needs polish, but I think he’s being very underrated by this board. If Kanter isn’t available at #6, I would be fine with the Wizards taking him.

[tontoz]

WizDynasty-

In conclusion, I think Morris is going to be way better than Vesely and Leornard. Just my 2 cents.

Agreed. The only way i wouldn't pick Morris at 6 is if Kanter falls to 6.

[Illuminaire]

Some of us also acknowledge all of those weaknesses, but look at his overall impact and say "good golly miss molly, he's still a productive player after all of THAT!"

McGee's talent level is just off the charts. So is his boneheadedness. I'm willing to gamble for another year or two with him, because I don't think he will ever have negative trade value unless we give him a truly frightening contract next year.

There is also the following:

Name - Age - (PER)
Al Horford - 25 - (20.7)
Dwight Howard - 25 - (26.2)
Roy Hibbert - 24 - (15.9)
Brook Lopez - 23 - (19.4)
Javale McGee - 23 - (17.3)
Deandre Jordan - 22 - (14.8)
Greg Monroe - 21 - (18.0)
Demarcus Cousins - 20 - (14.6)


That is the entire list of centers aged 25 and under who played 25+ minutes this season. The entire list. There is only one definitively superior player (Howard); Horford is certainly better now, but he's also tapped out his upside. Neither Jordan or Cousins have been very impressive or consistent. Hibbert is solid but limited. Lopez can score efficiently but is a laughably poor rebounder and help defender.

Aside from snagging Howard or trading for Greg Monroe, there are no other young centers in the NBA that would be a clear upgrade. Heck, there aren't even that many that would be a lateral move! Center is a weak position in the NBA right now - so while I acknowledge McGees weaknesses and obstinance-induced limitations, I also see him as an extremely valuable commodity that would be very difficult to replace.

Now, if Kanter can guard centers...

[WizarDynasty]

We need lockdown defense at the small forward, alot more than a non defensive below average non athlete that loves to shoot jumpers at the small forward spot. Carmelo can't take over a game defensively which is why his teams have never consistently gone deep into the playoffs. He faces the same problems in NY unless they get some hall of fame defensive players.
If Vesely, Tyler, D.Williams and Kanter are all gone at 6, that's the only way i would consider taking him. its not happening and Marcus is going to struggle trying to get his shot against nba starters. He might do well against bench players but his lack of athleticism severely limits his upside. He's a sixth man type player but finding a offensively oriented small forward who can't win battles defensively each night are quite easy to find in the nba.
I think its a huge red flag that his agility scores seem to have disappeared. Maybe its just an error in the database but i don't see his scores at all. Usually players don't want their scores published if they aren't going to help their stock. Maybe its just a database error.

[FAH1223]

I don't want Williams... too MANY QUESTIONS on his motor and work ethic... like we need more of that here

Wizards should stand pat and take whoever is at #6. I hope we don't take Vessley, thats Jared Jeffries all over again.

[Zonkerbl]

I'm not convinced Javale is stupid. I think he's a very stubborn guy with a strong opinion about how he should play the game (thus the season long argument about substance vs style).

[tontoz]

We need lockdown defense at the small forward, alot more than a non defensive below average non athlete that loves to shoot jumpers at the small forward spot. Carmelo can't take over a game defensively which is why his teams have never consistently gone deep into the playoffs. He faces the same problems in NY unless they get some hall of fame defensive players.
If Vesely, Tyler, D.Williams and Kanter are all gone at 6, that's the only way i would consider taking him. its not happening and Marcus is going to struggle trying to get his shot against nba starters. He might do well against bench players but his lack of athleticism severely limits his upside. He's a sixth man type player but finding a offensively oriented small forward who can't win battles defensively each night are quite easy to find in the nba.

Morris has the same vertical and sprint time as Melo and beat Melo in the bench press. I guess Melo isn't athletic either, right?

Vesely is too weak to guard 4s and not quick enough to guard 3s. He can't shoot, dribble or rebound. I wouldn't take him at 18 let alone 6.

[kblack]

FWIW, I ran into Wes Jr last night in the city and he said that they like Vesely. He mentioned the obvious that DWill won't be around at 6 which told me that they are more than likely keeping the pick. He really liked Vesely.