Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4

[7-Day Dray]

FWIW, I ran into Wes Jr last night in the city and he said that they like Vesely. He mentioned the obvious that DWill won't be around at 6 which told me that they are more than likely keeping the pick. He really liked Vesely.

NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WizarDynasty]

We need lockdown defense at the small forward, alot more than a non defensive below average non athlete that loves to shoot jumpers at the small forward spot. Carmelo can't take over a game defensively which is why his teams have never consistently gone deep into the playoffs. He faces the same problems in NY unless they get some hall of fame defensive players.
If Vesely, Tyler, D.Williams and Kanter are all gone at 6, that's the only way i would consider taking him. its not happening and Marcus is going to struggle trying to get his shot against nba starters. He might do well against bench players but his lack of athleticism severely limits his upside. He's a sixth man type player but finding a offensively oriented small forward who can't win battles defensively each night are quite easy to find in the nba.

Morris has the same vertical and sprint time as Melo and beat Melo in the bench press. I guess Melo isn't athletic either, right?

Vesely is too weak to guard 4s and not quick enough to guard 3s. He can't shoot, dribble or rebound. I wouldn't take him at 18 let alone 6.

Vesely was guarding nba guards like flip murry so he had much more difficult perimeter assignments that M.Morris. We need that can contest perimeter shots. Marcus Morris doesn't have length to make up for slow footspeed. Vesely does. He also is a scrapper defensively and shows tremendous effort defensively.
Morris is more polished offensively but he isn't that good offensively that he can make up for his poorr defense on the perimeter. Vesely has tremendous upside offensively and defensively and already has shown that improvement. Morris doesnt have the physical tools to get better offensively or defensively.
He isn't a number or number two option and if anything, the teams opposing small forward will circle morris as their guarantee for eclipsing their career high. Morris has no tools at all to bother the average nba small forward shot and he doesn't have the footspeed to shutdown driving lanes, close out on shots. finally artest was a decent defender mainly because he was allowed to get away with handchecking opponents on the drive and he was so powerful that a slight nudge would knock most perimeter off balance. I don't see marcus morris with anything close to this type of power his arms while moving his feet. the ability to knock someone off balance by only moving your forearms two inches is a pretty rare physical ability which artest had he also have a over 7'2 wingspan.
so again, a player that has the tools to shutdown perimeter players with his superior length and average footspeed adds points by subtraction.
But when you are building a team, your starters need to be able shutdown their man defensively while not being an offensive liability. Vesely fits this role and improving offensively while marcus magically takes the place of antwan jamison.
the way i see it is this, how much better a defender is Marcus Morris over Antwan Jamison. Do we really want to go back to watching another powerforward with no shotblocking skills and slow feet try and play the small forward spot.
finally there really is no comparison to Vesely's fluid shooting mechanics and J.Jeffries stiff shooting mechanics. Night and day.
if we are gun ho on finding a scoring small forward with no defensive upside then d.wiilliams and marcus morris should be fine picks. IF we want a team that scraps defensively and thrives on penetration from wall, then we go Vesely. i think i am biased because i like my starters tto have a reach advantage with at least average footspeed for their respective position as prime requirements. As long as they show the mechanics and continuous improvements in their offensive and defensive awareness---they normally getting positive marks from me. If a players doesn't have a superior standing reach for their position--9'0 standing reach is superior for a small forward and marcus doesn't have it.
I think the scenario goes--D.Williams is worth the 6th and (18th this year or lottery protected next year). i would rather have mcGee and marcus morris than d.williams and any player on Minnesota's roster. if we really want d.will that bad..then marcus morris isn't far off from d.williams. If we want a player that matches up each night with the other player's star perimeter player who also isn't a defensive liability then Vesely is the better fit.

[JonathanJoseph]

Now that it has been confirmed that McGee isn't going anywhere, a few too many posters coming out to say they knew it all along.

If you go 10 pages back in this thread, I think the slight majority here were willing to give McGee AND #6 away for a tweener forward and I hope everyone keeps that perspective in mind when considering all this draft hoopla. It's silly season.

Most of these players will never become more than NBA role players, if that. A few will be good NBA players and most of them will be available at pick #6.

[tontoz]

Vesely was guarding nba guards like flip murry so he had much more difficult perimeter assignments that M.Morris.

Guarding a washed up NBA backup is a lot different from guarding Melo and Lebron. He is going to get clowned and won't be able to make guys pay on the other end due to his weak shot, weak handles and poor hands. He can't even shoot 70% from the foul line.

[Dat2U]

Edit:
I was just watching some Vesely highlight videos. I am still not in favor of drafting him, but damn! Jan can get up! Check out the below video at the 2:06 mark. Vesely looks like his head is well over the rim, and he almost looks high enough to touch the top of the backboard. You don't see a lot of dunks where the entire ball is over the box.

3:55 is pretty impressive too. I guess we can take the Wiz at their word when they say they think they'll be happy with whatever player at 6, if it turns out they can't trade up. Jan does look like he'd run well next to Wall, though we still need rebounders and he still needs a jumper and a sandwich or some creatine.

I do like that he plays heavy minutes on a winning squad. And I like his passion, kid clearly loves to compete. So I'll shrug and give the benefit of the doubt if he's the pick.

The highlight package was pretty impressive. Vesely does attack the rim with abandon on the break. He is an excellent athlete for his size. However the thing I keep coming back to is the bad hands and the poor offensive skill set. I've softened my stance on Vesely a bit but I don't see him being anything more than an energy/effort guy in the league. I honestly want something more than that at 6.

If were going to take a shot in the dark on a flawed euro prospect, I'd go with Biyombo before Vesely or even Valanciunas.

[Jay81]

i posted a quote a few days ago that a veteran NBA scout cant see how Vesley would be a failure in the NBA.

If we want vesley, how far do we have to trade down to get him? 9?

[Wizardspride]

I'm not convinced Javale is stupid. I think he's a very stubborn guy with a strong opinion about how he should play the game (thus the season long argument about substance vs style).

This.

[Ruzious]

I'm not convinced Javale is stupid. I think he's a very stubborn guy with a strong opinion about how he should play the game (thus the season long argument about substance vs style).

This.

How bout we compromise and say he's stubborn AND stupid at this point in his career.

[LyricalRico]

^ How about he's stupid for being stubborn?

[sfam]

i posted a quote a few days ago that a veteran NBA scout cant see how Vesley would be a failure in the NBA.

If we want vesley, how far do we have to trade down to get him? 9?

If we really want Vesley we take him at #6. Some mocks are starting to show him going earlier than or pick.

[Dat2U]

Updated rankings by tiers. Ordered by position from CE, PF, SF, SG & PG. Then rank.

TIER 1

None

TIER 2

CE Enes Kanter
PF Derrick Williams
PG Kyrie Irving

TIER 3

CE Bismack Biyombo
CE Jonas Valanciunas
PF Tristan Thompson
PF Kenneth Faried
SF Chris Singleton
SF Marcus Morris
SG Alec Burks
PG Kemba Walker
PG Brandon Knight

TIER 4

PF Donatas Motiejunas
PF Markieff Morris
SF Nikola Mirotic
SF Jan Vesely
SF Kawhi Leonard
SF Jordan Hamilton
SG Marshon Brooks
SG Klay Thompson
PG Jimmer Fredette

TIER 5

CE Jeremy Tyler
CE Nikola Vucevic
CE Keith Benson
PF Trey Thompkins
PF Justin Harper
SF Davis Bertans
SF Tobias Harris
SF Travis Leslie
SF Tyler Honeycutt
SG Josh Shelby
PG Nolan Smith
PG Norris Cole
PG Iman Shumpert
PG Reggie Jackson
PG Darius Morris

Best of the rest:

CE Jordan Williams
PF JaJuan Johnson
SF Chandler Parsons
SF Jimmy Butler
SF Kyle Singler
SG David Lighty
SG Malcolm Lee
SG Shelvin Mack
PG Charles Jenkins
PG Ben Hansbrough
PG Isaiah Thomas
PG Andrew Goudelock

[Illuminaire]

^ How about he's stupid for being stubborn?

That's probably the most accurate statement yet, actually.

[tontoz]

i posted a quote a few days ago that a veteran NBA scout cant see how Vesley would be a failure in the NBA.

If we want vesley, how far do we have to trade down to get him? 9?

If we really want Vesley we take him at #6. Some mocks are starting to show him going earlier than or pick.

Hopefully they are right.

[sfam]

i posted a quote a few days ago that a veteran NBA scout cant see how Vesley would be a failure in the NBA.

If we want vesley, how far do we have to trade down to get him? 9?

If we really want Vesley we take him at #6. Some mocks are starting to show him going earlier than or pick.

Hopefully they are right.

I used to be concerned about getting Jan, but now I'm kindof intrigued. He'd be a great Fast Break running mate for Wall. And if he works hard, I'm guessing he develops a stable shot.

[Zonkerbl]

Stubborn to the point of being willfully ignorant, maybe.

The point being, if you could somehow change his mind about how he should approach the game, he's capable of learning how to do it.

And maybe Flip did that last year. He chipped and chipped and chipped at the granite until he finally broke through.

[theboomking]

I don't want Williams... too MANY QUESTIONS on his motor and work ethic... like we need more of that here

Wizards should stand pat and take whoever is at #6. I hope we don't take Vessley, thats Jared Jeffries all over again.

What questions about work ethic? The guy was an unheralded late bloomer or a prospect that has worked his ass off to rise to the level he has achieved. Can you post a scouting report that questions Williams' motor? There have been questions about his interest on the defensive end. On the other hand, that is common in elite college prospects, and Williams sealed 2 games with last second blocks.

Now that it has been confirmed that McGee isn't going anywhere, a few too many posters coming out to say they knew it all along.

If you go 10 pages back in this thread, I think the slight majority here were willing to give McGee AND #6 away for a tweener forward and I hope everyone keeps that perspective in mind when considering all this draft hoopla. It's silly season.

Most of these players will never become more than NBA role players, if that. A few will be good NBA players and most of them will be available at pick #6.

I'll go on record as saying that to be unwilling to trade McGee for Williams straight up is stupid. This offseason, there are two free agent centers available that are better than McGee. Chandler was also available last offseason, and upside bedamned, Kendrick Perkins is also a better player than McGee and was just traded for a reasonable sum. To say that players of McGee's caliber don't come available in free agency just isn't consistent with recent league history.

[WizarDynasty]

now i agree that Vesely can get overpowered but his long standing reach allows him to play alot further away from his man and still be able to challenge his shot. The shorter your standing reach, the closer you have to play and the more physical you have to be for a perimeter player. Obviously if you are a post player, there isn't much space between your man and the rim so you have to play him close and strength is much more important for post players than perimeter players. Ron Artest and Jason Kidd type strength where you can redirect a players momentum by just by nudging your forearm 2 inches means you are physical freak.

[TGW]

Thanks for the update Dat. Great list.

[tontoz]

I used to be concerned about getting Jan, but now I'm kindof intrigued. He'd be a great Fast Break running mate for Wall. And if he works hard, I'm guessing he develops a stable shot.

First of all i seriously doubt he will be able to keep up with Wall when Wall is in fast break mode.

Secondly the Wizards were 4th in the NBA in fast break points this past season. The fast break isn't their problem.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fa ... s-per-game

Half court offense is their big problem and i don't see how Vesely will help. At all.

[Halcyon]

Vesely does have the potential to be a "3 and D" type of player, with his length and decent shooting mechanics. However I'd prefer more of a sure thing with that pick though, and his inability to shoot by the age of 21 is a big red flag for me. If he can't shoot, he's almost useless in the halfcourt with Wall on the court feeding him the ball.

I think a pre-req going forward is that the 2 and 3 players must be able to catch and shoot from mid-range and preferably the 3. No exceptions.