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Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#981 » by sfam » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:40 pm

tontoz wrote:
sfam wrote:I used to be concerned about getting Jan, but now I'm kindof intrigued. He'd be a great Fast Break running mate for Wall. And if he works hard, I'm guessing he develops a stable shot.


First of all i seriously doubt he will be able to keep up with Wall when Wall is in fast break mode.

Secondly the Wizards were 4th in the NBA in fast break points this past season. The fast break isn't their problem.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fa ... s-per-game

Half court offense is their big problem and i don't see how Vesely will help. At all.


By slashing and posting up in the short term.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#982 » by thinker07 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:44 pm

I listened to a great radio briefing by Jay Bilas, Chad Ford, and Fran Frascilla (sp) with reporters from around the country with NBA draft questions. Here's the link - you may want to spend the afternoon listening:

http://player.delvenetworks.com/preview ... abb0166ca5

I didn't take notes and played the interview off and on so hopefully I remembered the following correctly - Among the MANY interesting comments (briefing is over 2 hours) were:

- Vesely is the safest Euro pick. Played well in major minutes in important league - you don't have to guess what he'll be as much as you do with Kanter or Valanciunas
- Singleton is the top defensive player in the draft and he shows signs of being able to develop into an effective NBA shooter with some additional work
- Irving will be the #1 pick
- All the Euros have some risk - Kanter will likely be able to contribute in the NBA sooner than Valanciunas, particularly on offense - But the latter maybe has more upside. There was the comment that Calipari thought that Kanter would have had the same effect on Kentucky as Sullinger had on Ohio State. Valanciunas might be the top player in this draft in 5 years.
- Malcolm Lee is probably the best defensive guard in the draft
- Derrick Williams really projects as a 4 - he lacked defensive effort in college though they thought he had the physical skill to be a decent defender. They thought it unlikely that he would be able to defend quicker 3's on the wing and might have trouble scoring on them as well.
- Really intriguing whether Tyler Honeycutt would follow the tradition of UCLA guys ending up being even better pros than college players - very tough to project
- Bilas compared Faried to Tyler Hansborough in that he's just relentless and guys in the NBA will not like playing against him because he will body up on them and block out physically every minute he's on the floor - Thought that he'd average 10 boards a game in the NBA if he gets minutes. Coaches will like having him because you don't need to run plays for him on offense
- They like Davis Bertans a lot
- Klay Thompson, Jimmer, and Shelvin Mack will all be solid NBA players right away, Bilas really likes Jordan Hamilton too
- Chandler Parsons -- Disappointing player at Florida - Great player in NBA workouts - Very hard to project whether he'll be good in the NBA
- Travis Leslie - Best athlete in the draft - not clear if he's any more than that
- Trey Thompkins - High probability of bust - had fitness and work habit issues in college and showed up out of shape for the combine. If he isn't motivated for job audition - how motivated will he be after he gets a guaranteed contract??
- Mirotic would be a lottery pick if he had a reasonable buyout form his Euro contract
- Thought that David Lighty would be a great 2nd round pickup - very good shooter and excellent defensive player - doesn't need the ball in his hands to be successful on offense

That's about all I remember off the top of my head.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#983 » by Dat2U » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:45 pm

Halcyon wrote:Vesely does have the potential to be a "3 and D" type of player, with his length and decent shooting mechanics. However I'd prefer more of a sure thing with that pick though, and his inability to shoot by the age of 21 is a big red flag for me. If he can't shoot, he's almost useless in the halfcourt with Wall on the court feeding him the ball.

I think a pre-req going forward is that the 2 and 3 players must be able to catch and shoot from mid-range and preferably the 3. No exceptions.


Agree 100%. It's an absolute necessity to surround Wall with some shooters at the 2/3.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#984 » by Ruzious » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:47 pm

sfam wrote:
tontoz wrote:
sfam wrote:I used to be concerned about getting Jan, but now I'm kindof intrigued. He'd be a great Fast Break running mate for Wall. And if he works hard, I'm guessing he develops a stable shot.


First of all i seriously doubt he will be able to keep up with Wall when Wall is in fast break mode.

Secondly the Wizards were 4th in the NBA in fast break points this past season. The fast break isn't their problem.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fa ... s-per-game

Half court offense is their big problem and i don't see how Vesely will help. At all.


By slashing and posting up in the short term.

Even in the positive reviews of him, people basically admit he has a poor shooting touch, and he doesn't dribble well. And when he gets in traffic, he loses the ball too much. So, slashing and posting up in half court are not likely to be things he will be efficient at doing.
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Re: Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#985 » by sfam » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:48 pm

Halcyon wrote:Vesely does have the potential to be a "3 and D" type of player, with his length and decent shooting mechanics. However I'd prefer more of a sure thing with that pick though, and his inability to shoot by the age of 21 is a big red flag for me. If he can't shoot, he's almost useless in the halfcourt with Wall on the court feeding him the ball.

I think a pre-req going forward is that the 2 and 3 players must be able to catch and shoot from mid-range and preferably the 3. No exceptions.

Gimme a break. Lots of athletic prospects need lots of work on their shots coming into the NBA. While I'd agree its a risk, its hardly a "big red flag" like say, knee surgeries or some such. Jason Kidd came into the league as a crappy shooter and ended up learning just fine. To say Vasley can't improve is just scars of Jared Jeffries leaking through.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#986 » by doc.end » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:53 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
TGW wrote:Ruzious is right.

If Vesely had good strong hands, I'd be satisfied with him as the pick. I'm wary of guys who fumble the ball in traffic or who get stripped alot. Vesely is going to be that. He also rebounds like a point guard despite being 6 foot freaking 11. He makes Bargnani look like Rodman on the glass.

Honestly still don't see what this guy or Kawhi Leonard has on Marcus Morris. MM is a more complete player than both of them.


i wouldn't worry to much about his hands, this a seven footer who can do a eurostep on a fast break, a guy who can dribble from the free throw line, and finish with a dunk in traffic. i have seen him drive with his right and finish with his left on the right side of the basket.
He will fumble the ball if he gets hacked and doesn't power through arm grabs but refs should call the foul.
His hands are coordinated enough to catch alley hoops from half court.
marcus morris is an offensively savy player mentally but he is physically challenged. If he had physical gifts to combine with his advanced offensive mental awareness, he would be a star.
The problem with Marcus is that a physically defensive player negates morris's high offensive mental awareness. Marcus has to work much harder against a physically gifted defender because he doesn't have the physical athleticism to create an advantage.
On top of that, marcus doesn't have a physical tools to have a sustained impact on the game defensively. A physically gifted defender's only weakness is his defensive awareness and if he has a high aptitude for understanding defensive concepts, his defensive awareness will improve. Marcus will never have the physical tools forever in his career and has to rely on others to create a defensive advantage that favors his team because he loses in most physical talent matchups each night because he won't have a standing reach advantage, he won't have a lateral quickness advantage and he won't have a first explosion advantage against a physically gifted nba small forward.
If he were going up against granger, pierce, j.smith, G.Wallace, S. Marion, C.Anthony, T.Prince, A.Iggy, Deng --Magic, Cavaliers, Nets, doesn't have small forward so he might work again them, Mbah Moute--loses.
Vesely has the quickness and at 6'11 with long arm, the standing reach to force all of these players to change their shooting motion out on the perimeter.
He also can still block shots even if he is beat to the hole. Marcus will never have that. Vesely's shot may not fall some nights but you can always rely on his ability to alter shots on the perimeter consistently every game even if his shot isn't falling thus helping you win. If marcus isn't hitting a mentally crafty shot over a defender, he can't help you win the game. Secondly Vesely is giving Wall a finisher every play. He is giving Wall a target every time the opponents collapses and double on wall and Vesely goes up like McGee and gets them and we all have seen that Wall absolutely loves throwing alley hoops off the dribble.
I definitely don't see marcus going up in the air and finishing walls passes at all. marcus may work on other teams but wall is a speed demon with a high motor that is sprinting on every possession. Vesely is the same way, sprint and feels a lane on every possession and gets his team amped up with positive energy. Vesely values drops tremendously without a fast break point guard. We have one of the best fast break point guards of the decade and he's only going to have this supersonic speed for maybe 10 years if lucky so use it now. Vesely is higher on my board for Wall than even Kanter. Kanter helps out on the bench and solidifies us but Tyler does the same thing with a higher upside. Tyler's only has immaturity problems, not a criminal history so Vesely and Tyler would vault EG into the hall of fame GM's.
Blatche, McGee, and Young and his influence on the culture change in Wizards have vaulted his status in my view and of course the Savior's vision is the only reason we have anything to look forward to at all.
Obviously there's in humanity savior and then their is the wiz fan's savior. But getting Vesely and Tyler makes us contenders within two season's and our window stays open for 10 years or longer as long as we can keep all of our players.
I also like our option, if someone takes vesely...kanter or williams falls. We have good option however the scenario falls. what's more important is that the wizards have a situation that most of the top 6 teams will never see, a john wall type point guard. A vesely type player is never going to reach his potential with a Devin Harris running point guard because he is a scorer first/shooter. That drastically reduces Vesely's fast break value. A team like toronto who doesn't have a point guard that can force double teams on nearly every possession will see Vesely struggle to create his shot in a half court set with the ball in his hands because calderon can't consistently beat his man and force the defense to rotate or isn't a threat to finish in the paint and teams don't have to double him. Wall will finish in the paint because of his 40 inch vertical and speed and thus teams already know a man is left open every time wall drives. Vesely has more value to the wiz than the utah or toronto.

I don't see kanter as having much value to toronto or utah because both teams already have rebounding bigs but don't have shot blockers and bigs that protect the rim. Kanter will be another big that can't protect the rim. Kanter is more attractive to us because we already have McGee to protect the rim and only need Kanter to come in and bring consistent rebounding energy and not allow the other team to play 4 on 5 offensively like booker, seraphin, armstrong, and at times Yi allowed last season. Vesely only has value to us because we have wall. kanter only has value to us because we have mcgee. D.Williams becomes a negative because both he and wall need the ball in their hands and d.williams can't change the outcome of a game consistently defensively. And if all else fails and we have irving on the board to pick from we can easilty drop a few spots and pick up our two way post player that only needs a season before he becomes d.howard dominant with tyler.
Obviously we need a starting small forward so williams is an upgrade over booker but a scoring small forward who is below average defensively is usually pretty easy to find in the nba.

:nod: I rest my case.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#987 » by closg00 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:00 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Halcyon wrote:Vesely does have the potential to be a "3 and D" type of player, with his length and decent shooting mechanics. However I'd prefer more of a sure thing with that pick though, and his inability to shoot by the age of 21 is a big red flag for me. If he can't shoot, he's almost useless in the halfcourt with Wall on the court feeding him the ball.

I think a pre-req going forward is that the 2 and 3 players must be able to catch and shoot from mid-range and preferably the 3. No exceptions.


Agree 100%. It's an absolute necessity to surround Wall with some shooters at the 2/3.


THIS THIS THIS, the Wizards have not learned after McGuire, Al Thornton, and to a lesser extent Booker. Vesely will be YET another player that we hope will develop on offense. Vesley will be exposed in the half/court when Wall has to pass-out to him and he has to either shoot or create a shot for himself. At the end of games his putrid FT% will hurt us. But hey, the Wizards (Ernie & Unseld Jr) love Vesely.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#988 » by TheKingOfVa360 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:07 pm

Best cause scenario Kanter falls to us. But it looks like Vesley will be a Wizard. He hasn't impressed me much but after a few years in the weight room and proper coaching, he could be a good player.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#989 » by Illuminaire » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:07 pm

theboomking wrote:I'll go on record as saying that to be unwilling to trade McGee for Williams straight up is stupid. This offseason, there are two free agent centers available that are better than McGee. Chandler was also available last offseason, and upside bedamned, Kendrick Perkins is also a better player than McGee and was just traded for a reasonable sum. To say that players of McGee's caliber don't come available in free agency just isn't consistent with recent league history.


Boom:

1) Chandler is 28. Perkins is 26. Both have a history of injuries, especially Perkins who has really struggled to stay healthy when playing starter's minutes.

2) Neither of them are likely to be playing at their peak when Wall and the rest of our young players reach theirs.

3) Under the current CBA, it is *very* difficult to sign a starting caliber center as a FA.

4) The new CBA will probably make it even harder to sign FA's away from their current team.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#990 » by Illuminaire » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:10 pm

TheKingOfVa360 wrote:Best cause scenario Kanter falls to us. But it looks like Vesley will be a Wizard. He hasn't impressed me much but after a few years in the weight room and proper coaching, he could be a good player.


I would feel better about Vesely if he had a skill beyond running hard and jumping high. From all the highlights I've seen, and limited game footage, he doesn't seem to have a tangible basketball skillset.

That worries me, a lot.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#991 » by tontoz » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:12 pm

sfam wrote:By slashing and posting up in the short term.



Posting up? In order to post up you need the strength to get and keep low post position. You also need to be able to catch the ball consistently and make good post moves. I haven't seen anything to make me think he can do any of this.

Slashing? How is he going to be slashing when the defense is packed in the middle daring everyone to shoot jumpers?
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#992 » by pineappleheadindc » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:19 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
TheKingOfVa360 wrote:Best cause scenario Kanter falls to us. But it looks like Vesley will be a Wizard. He hasn't impressed me much but after a few years in the weight room and proper coaching, he could be a good player.


I would feel better about Vesely if he had a skill beyond running hard and jumping high. From all the highlights I've seen, and limited game footage, he doesn't seem to have a tangible basketball skillset.

That worries me, a lot.


I've ranted this before and you guys are going to have to hear me rant this again.

Athletic ablity insofar as running and jumping are so overrated.

And I'm tired of everyone talking about the OKC model. You know what model I want? The San Antonio model. The Dallas Model (of this year). Heck, even the Lakers model (yeah, I give you that they have Kobe).

Look at the list of NBA champions.

2011 Dallas
2010 Lakers
2009 Lakers
2008 Cs
2007 Spurs
2006 Heat
2005 Spurs

Nobody in that group with a real run and jump squad. But they're all smart. Coached well. Lakers win back-to-back with Derek Freaking Fisher at point. Dallas with Jason "old man" Kidd.

Smarts wins championships. Heart wins championships. Basketball IQ wins championships.

THAT'S what's most important. I don't care if it's a reach - but if the Wiz drafted the guy who tested out to have the best combination of basketball IQ and worth ethic, I'd be happy.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#993 » by fishercob » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:21 pm

.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#994 » by pancakes3 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:21 pm

i think more importantly is that they've got a top 20 of all time player on their squads. talent wins championships...
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#995 » by fishercob » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:30 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
theboomking wrote:I'll go on record as saying that to be unwilling to trade McGee for Williams straight up is stupid. This offseason, there are two free agent centers available that are better than McGee. Chandler was also available last offseason, and upside bedamned, Kendrick Perkins is also a better player than McGee and was just traded for a reasonable sum. To say that players of McGee's caliber don't come available in free agency just isn't consistent with recent league history.


Boom:

1) Chandler is 28. Perkins is 26. Both have a history of injuries, especially Perkins who has really struggled to stay healthy when playing starter's minutes.

2) Neither of them are likely to be playing at their peak when Wall and the rest of our young players reach theirs.

3) Under the current CBA, it is *very* difficult to sign a starting caliber center as a FA.

4) The new CBA will probably make it even harder to sign FA's away from their current team.


5) You can't count on acquiring a specific player in free agency (especially when you don't know the new CBA rules).

6) When is the last time the Wizards acquired a good player via free agency that other teams wanted? I think that would be 8 summers ago with Gilbert Arenas and he wasn't a star yet.

Until the organization shows it can attract and sign desirable free agents -- by actually doing so -- relying on free agency ahead of time is a bad option.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#996 » by theboomking » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:56 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
theboomking wrote:I'll go on record as saying that to be unwilling to trade McGee for Williams straight up is stupid. This offseason, there are two free agent centers available that are better than McGee. Chandler was also available last offseason, and upside bedamned, Kendrick Perkins is also a better player than McGee and was just traded for a reasonable sum. To say that players of McGee's caliber don't come available in free agency just isn't consistent with recent league history.


Boom:

1) Chandler is 28. Perkins is 26. Both have a history of injuries, especially Perkins who has really struggled to stay healthy when playing starter's minutes.

2) Neither of them are likely to be playing at their peak when Wall and the rest of our young players reach theirs.

3) Under the current CBA, it is *very* difficult to sign a starting caliber center as a FA.

4) The new CBA will probably make it even harder to sign FA's away from their current team.

fishercob wrote:
Illuminaire wrote:
theboomking wrote:I'll go on record as saying that to be unwilling to trade McGee for Williams straight up is stupid. This offseason, there are two free agent centers available that are better than McGee. Chandler was also available last offseason, and upside bedamned, Kendrick Perkins is also a better player than McGee and was just traded for a reasonable sum. To say that players of McGee's caliber don't come available in free agency just isn't consistent with recent league history.


Boom:

1) Chandler is 28. Perkins is 26. Both have a history of injuries, especially Perkins who has really struggled to stay healthy when playing starter's minutes.

2) Neither of them are likely to be playing at their peak when Wall and the rest of our young players reach theirs.

3) Under the current CBA, it is *very* difficult to sign a starting caliber center as a FA.

4) The new CBA will probably make it even harder to sign FA's away from their current team.


5) You can't count on acquiring a specific player in free agency (especially when you don't know the new CBA rules).

6) When is the last time the Wizards acquired a good player via free agency that other teams wanted? I think that would be 8 summers ago with Gilbert Arenas and he wasn't a star yet.

Until the organization shows it can attract and sign desirable free agents -- by actually doing so -- relying on free agency ahead of time is a bad option.


I must not have communicated my point well. My point was not that we need to sign Nene, or Chandler, or that we should have traded for Perkins. My point is that JaVale McGee is not "untouchable", as many on this board contend.

To be untouchable, you have to be irreplaceable. JaVale is not. I named 3 players that could have better than adequately replaced JaVale if we were contenders, this year. I was extrapolating that if there are 3 players, currently superior to JaVale, available this year, that it is highly unlikely that in future years, another serviceable replacement wouldn't also be available.

Fishercob, do you really think that it is unlikely that players are going to want to come here to play with Wall in Washington? If we are a decent team, and Wall keeps progressing, free agents will want to come. Big time free agents. Especially big man free agents. When was the last time a big man draft prospect professed his desire to come to Washington? Kanter did this year. You don't think Cousins would think of coming here, after saying at last year's rookie v Sophomore game that one year was too short a time to have with John Wall? I wouldn't be surprised if players of Blake Griffin's caliber wanted to play here for for Leonsis, with Wall, instead of re-upping with cheap ass Donald Sterling.

Regardless, my point was never that we need to sign a free agent center or big man. It was purely that JaVale isn't untouchable, or irreplaceable. He is neither. We may not be able to replace JaVale's highlights, but that is largely all that McGee offers at this point in his career. That wouldn't be so bad if McGee was constantly watching tape and working on his fundamentals, but he has shown no insight into what he needs to do better in order to become an elite center. I'm not that impressed by JaVale's PER. He is a low utilization player that catches the ball near the basket and benefits from playing with John Wall. McGee isn't that good on offense, or on defense. His offensive and defensive on/off stats should be much, much better considering the players we have behind him.

Maybe Williams isn't a better prospect than JaVale. Maybe EG thinks Williams won't be able to score as efficiently in the NBA, where defenders are longer and more athletic, Derrick won't be able to get to the FT as often, and the 3 point line is more distant. Maybe EG thinks Williams will be Jamison-esque on defense. Fine then. Don't trade for him.

But, if there is a player who can be a multi-year all star, who is intense, can score, who would make our team more attractive to future free agents, who would be a good running mate for Wall, and who would give us the immense cap flexibility of having our two best players on rookie contracts, philosophically, JaVale is not too high a price to pay. Not nearly.

In any case, I'm with Jerry West, who openly said that the biggest mistake you can make in a rebuild, is to overvalue the top players on a bad team.
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Re: Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#997 » by sfam » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:57 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
TheKingOfVa360 wrote:Best cause scenario Kanter falls to us. But it looks like Vesley will be a Wizard. He hasn't impressed me much but after a few years in the weight room and proper coaching, he could be a good player.


I would feel better about Vesely if he had a skill beyond running hard and jumping high. From all the highlights I've seen, and limited game footage, he doesn't seem to have a tangible basketball skillset.

That worries me, a lot.

I dunno - he seems to understand the game fairly well. If he has a decent BBIQ, is a hard worker, and has semi-decent form, I have confidence that he'll develop a shot.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#998 » by sfam » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:03 pm

tontoz wrote:
sfam wrote:By slashing and posting up in the short term.



Posting up? In order to post up you need the strength to get and keep low post position. You also need to be able to catch the ball consistently and make good post moves. I haven't seen anything to make me think he can do any of this.

Slashing? How is he going to be slashing when the defense is packed in the middle daring everyone to shoot jumpers?


He's shone he has an effective hook. But no, I don't think he'll do great posting up Dwight Howard if that's what you mean. If he's going against SFs, he should be OK. But again, I'm not expecting all-star status here out the gate. That doesn't exist at #6. If it takes Vastly a few years to bloom, I'm OK with that. And yes, I'd want Kanter or Jonas more.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#999 » by popper » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:23 pm

Please .... no vesely or any other noodle thin stickmen. We have a decent draft order this year and probably next as well. We shouldn't be tempted to trade up unless it's a slam dunk good value. There are probably 3 or 4 mid to late first rounders that will end up being exceptional basketball players. As I've stated before, we would probably get more value out of this year's draft by trading down.

If you look at all the potential this year like Brooks, Harper, J Johnon, Tyler, Singleton, Faried, BB Fredette, Shumpert, etc., etc. (insert your favorite player) we could conceivably end up with at least two, if not three, solid NBA starters.
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Re: Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4 

Post#1000 » by WizBiz » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:36 pm

The 2001 draft is going to be shown at 6pm on NBA TV if anyone's interested. :)

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