Lather me with blather -- DRAFT thread 4

[WizarDynasty]

Vesely reminds me of a young smarter scotty pippen with more hustle defensively. Offensively they are similiar. Pippen had much better dribble and shoot ability but Vesely is improving. Vesely is the better post player.
Pippen is also more fluid with the ball in his hands but Vesely is still the best running mate for wall in this entire draft. He fills our hardest to fill longterm holes. Wall increases Vesely value longterm.

[tontoz]

Well, to me that says that despite his youth he is playing good defense, playing within the offense, and providing hustle. It's tough for young players to break rotations in European ball, he must be doing something right. All the measurables (FT%, etc.) are on the offensive side. So he must be good at defense. Which would be great.

From the scouting reports, he's not a good defender. Opposing teams single him out to go after.

So... no actual skills other than dunking?

Other people seem to think that because he looks something like AK47, that makes him a good defender. It boggles the mind.

I remember having these same arguments with Hawks fans regarding Yi. Many of them wanted to draft Yi at 3 for crying out loud. They had all these youtube clips of him running the floor dunking. BFD

[sfam]

Help me understand something - Yi was picked based on his terrific workout against standing chairs. Vesely, on the other hand, plays - no, starts - in the top Euroleague.

What workouts has Vesely done? Word is he was avoiding workouts altogether until the teams started complaining. I think he is doing his first workout this week.

What does Vesely do in these games? Not much. He doesn't shoot well or create his own shot. He struggles to hold onto the ball and doesn't rebound. Obviously he is not creating for others and he can't even shoot foul shots. He shot 47% from the line this season combining the 3 leagues.

Other than dunk what can he do?

Again, how is it possible that a guy who can't do anything gets the Young Euro player of the Year award? How is it possible that a SF that can only dunk, who can't shoot and can't handle the ball starts on a top Euroleague team and by all accounts is a key piece of their success?

ANSWER: Its fairly clear - he can do lots more than dunk. That people who hate him as a pick keep repeating it doesn't make it true. You may state it as if it were a fact, but its still just an opinion - one probably not based on a whole lot of research. My opinion isn't based on detailed research either, but when I look at the vids online, I see a pretty smart player with a terrific first step and an even better finisher who knows what's going on around him. Again, I'm not saying I'm right or that Vesely is going to be the next coming of, well, Vesely, but I am saying its pretty odd to see such certainly in the negative opinions expressed here. He CLEARLY can do more than dunk, and just as clearly, is able to slash to the rim, which means he can handle the ball. Yes, he has TOs, but what's being said is the guy can't handle the ball. Lebron had tons of TOs in the finals - does this mean he can't handle the ball either? But if you're gonna base the bashing on your stats, why not talk about his defensive stats?

[doc.end]

I don't hate him. Don't hate him at all. I just get the feeling that a lot of people are enamored by the crazy athletic European (read white guy) and because of that are overlooking a lot of holes in his game. A LOT of holes. Having said that, being as there is a reasonable chance we end up with him I hope you thoughts on him are spot on and mine are way off.

Maybe what you really mean is lack of NBA style game, especially one on one isolation plays run for him.
Not holes in his game.

1) He surely would need to adapt to NBA style a bit but he proved he is a good learner and understands the game. Failure to do that would be on coaching staff a lot.

2) Good news - he is effective without being a ballhog.

[Jay81]

Vesley is the riskiest pick in the draft. One scout said he cant fail in the NBA..others saying he has no skills besides jumping and dunking.

Its way to risky to take someone like that at 6 and he dosent seem to have much upside to him. The wizards apparently want Kanter and will do what it takes to get him

[doc.end]

Help me understand something - Yi was picked based on his terrific workout against standing chairs. Vesely, on the other hand, plays - no, starts - in the top Euroleague.

What workouts has Vesely done? Word is he was avoiding workouts altogether until the teams started complaining. I think he is doing his first workout this week.

What does Vesely do in these games? Not much. He doesn't shoot well or create his own shot. He struggles to hold onto the ball and doesn't rebound. Obviously he is not creating for others and he can't even shoot foul shots. He shot 47% from the line this season combining the 3 leagues.

Other than dunk what can he do?

What an ignorance. Learn schedule of his team first. It can't be that difficult to get educated.

[tontoz]

Defensive stats? Uhh...ok

1.8 defensive rebounds per game
.9 blocks
1.3 steals

Not impressed

Not only was Yi dominant in his league he actually played well against the US in international competition. He had NBA players singing his praises. And he could actually shoot from the perimeter and foul line. Vesely can't.

And since when has passing been one of Vesely's good points? He averages more turnovers than assists.

[sfam]

Defensive stats? Uhh...ok

1.8 defensive rebounds per game
.9 blocks
1.3 steals

Not impressed

Not only was Yi dominant in his league he actually played well against the US in international competition. He had NBA players singing his praises. And he could actually shoot from the perimeter and foul line. Vesely can't.

And since when has passing been one of Vesely's good points? He averages more turnovers than assists.

"According to Synergy Sports, Jan performed very well in iso possessions, where he held his opponents to 36.4% shooting and a third of the iso possessions end in a turnover. Shows good balance and footwork on the perimeter. Great agility for guy his size, keeps his feet underneath his hips well.

His post-up defense graded out just as well--held his opponents to 26.7% shooting. Though, Vesely will need to add a few lbs. to his frame to better guard post-ups in the NBA."

EDIT: BTW, feel free to read the rest of the report which talks about his post-up moves, driving ability, moving without the basket, helping his team with the title or winning Serbian League Player of the Year - not bad for a dude who has no skills other than dunking...

http://thepaintedarea.blogspot.com/2011 ... ct_17.html

[sfam]

Vesley is the riskiest pick in the draft. One scout said he cant fail in the NBA..others saying he has no skills besides jumping and dunking.

Its way to risky to take someone like that at 6 and he dosent seem to have much upside to him. The wizards apparently want Kanter and will do what it takes to get him

I'd be thrilled if we walked away from the draft with Kanter. All I'm saying is if we get Vesely, I won't be slitting my wrists. I'll give the guy the chance to show what he can do, and will be very excited to watch him develop.

[keynote]

Grantland (aka not grantland.com) posted an interview of Biyombo:

http://espn.go.com/espn/grantland/story ... /your-deal

Grantland: A lot of teams are giving you serious consideration in the draft. There's easily 10 or 12 cities where you could wind up. Let's play a game: I'll say the name of a city and you say the first word that comes to mind. Any word you want — just the first word that pops into your head. Cool?

Biyombo: Cool.

Grantland: OK, here we go. Washington, D.C.

Biyombo: No.

Grantland: OK. Detroit.

Biyombo: Detroit? Yes.

Grantland: Toronto.

Biyombo: Yes.

Grantland: Houston.

Biyombo: Yes.

Grantland: Wait. Hold on. Do you know anything about these cities? Or are you just randomly saying "Yes" and "No"?

Biyombo: When the teams come over here to work me out, I learn about every city so I'm prepared to meet with them. I take a lot of time to learn everything I can about the city and the team, so I know what's going on. I do a lot of online research.

[tontoz]

What na ignorance. Learn schedule of his team first. It can't be that difficult to get educated.

Speaking of ignorance are you familiar with the story of the pot and the kettle?

The Wizards will be in New Jersey on Sunday to watch forward Jan Vesely of Czech Republic. Vesely, an athletic 6-foot-11 swingman, is expected to arrive from Serbia late Friday night. He originally didn’t intend to work out for NBA teams before the draft, but his representatives changed that approach with teams reluctant to invest a top-10 pick without getting to know the player.

Washington, Cleveland, Toronto and Sacramento are expected to be in attendance for Vesely’s workout, with Detroit scheduled to interview him the night before, according to a source with knowledge of the situation. Utah is also interested in Vesely, but had a chance to meet with him in Serbia last week.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... _blog.html

[manifested]

Moving without the ball is a definitely a basketball skill and from most reports this is something Vesely does very well. If you have a creative PG who can disrupt a defense it makes that skill even more valuable. Maybe someone's already made the comparison, but I think the best example for Vesely (on offense anyway) could be someone like Shawn Marion. Even in his prime, he rarely created off the dribble but was primarily a finisher/slasher by moving into space when defenses became unbalanced from collapsing on Nash. This cerebral aspect of Marion's game was still on display in this year's finals even though he isn't quite as athletic as he used to be. That's a pretty well-defined niche especially when the rest of his game isn't well developed (rebounding, passing, handling, shooting). To be valuable and get playing time, he'll need to really work on at least one or two of those.

If this was the English Premier League and he was a center forward, I'd say yeah moving without the ball, drawing fouls, and occasionally finishing chances without offering any other attributes is still a crucial piece to have. In NBA basketball, it's still valuable but I'm not sure it outweighs his lack of skill in other areas.

[RT31]

can it be thursday already? the blue/red wizards logo on DX burns my corneas.
Vesley is at best, Darius Miles. Not that that's such a bad thing. Miles would have been productive had he not gotten so banged up and had his head on straight.

I do not think basketball IQ is very coachable as someone said earlier. maybe over a long period of time (8-12 years), but someone is not going to have a low bbiq and go through 1 season and have a high bbiq (see McGee). So saying Vesley has all this athletic ability, and you can teach bbiq, is not a selling point. cause i don't want to wait 10 years for him to get it.

in defense of Yi, he's a serviceable big man. an 8th,9th guy off the bench. he's decent man on man defender, rebounder and can hit a 15-18 footer. his rotations are terrible and he falls in love with the jumper which limits his offensive game. when he had good games, he took it inside. unfortunately, that was quite infrequent. he probably should have gotten drafted in the teens. also where i think Vesley should get drafted as well. neither of them should be at #6.

[sfam]

I do not think basketball IQ is very coachable as someone said earlier. maybe over a long period of time (8-12 years), but someone is not going to have a low bbiq and go through 1 season and have a high bbiq (see McGee). So saying Vesley has all this athletic ability, and you can teach bbiq, is .

Who is saying Vesely has low BBIQ? The knock on him isn't his basketball smarts, which seem really good - the knock on him is whether he can be taught to shoot, because he clearly is lacking in that area now.

[keynote]

Has there ever been a successful SF or PF in recent NBA history who couldn't shoot or rebound?

[fishercob]

I vote for "Lather me with Dan Rather" for the next draft blather thread.

Sadly, I've actually thought about this. I was thinking

"Slather me, lather me, blather me -- Draft thread 5"

[Ruzious]

Moving without the ball is a definitely a basketball skill and from most reports this is something Vesely does very well. If you have a creative PG who can disrupt a defense it makes that skill even more valuable. Maybe someone's already made the comparison, but I think the best example for Vesely (on offense anyway) could be someone like Shawn Marion. Even in his prime, he rarely created off the dribble but was primarily a finisher/slasher by moving into space when defenses became unbalanced from collapsing on Nash. This cerebral aspect of Marion's game was still on display in this year's finals even though he isn't quite as athletic as he used to be. That's a pretty well-defined niche especially when the rest of his game isn't well developed (rebounding, passing, handling, shooting). To be valuable and get playing time, he'll need to really work on at least one or two of those.

If this was the English Premier League and he was a center forward, I'd say yeah moving without the ball, drawing fouls, and occasionally finishing chances without offering any other attributes is still a crucial piece to have. In NBA basketball, it's still valuable but I'm not sure it outweighs his lack of skill in other areas.

You're comparing him to a player who was nicknamed Matrix because he was arguably the best athlete in the game. Vesely's a good athlete... for his size. He doesn't compare as an athlete to Marion in his prime. And Marion had arguably the best setup man of all-time helping him. For over 90% of NBA players, moving without the ball doesn't do a helluvalot if you don't shoot well from outside. Ray Allen probably moves better than anyone else in the NBA without the ball. If he wasn't a great shooter, all that running without the ball would mean jack squat.

[Severn Hoos]

I vote for "Lather me with Dan Rather" for the next draft blather thread.

Sadly, I've actually thought about this. I was thinking

"Slather me, lather me, blather me -- Draft thread 5"

Hmmm....why don't you run it by doc and see what he says.

[tontoz]

I vote for "Lather me with Dan Rather" for the next draft blather thread.

Sadly, I've actually thought about this. I was thinking

"Slather me, lather me, blather me -- Draft thread 5"

That gets my vote. Nice to see someone focusing on the important things.

[montestewart]

I vote for "Lather me with Dan Rather" for the next draft blather thread.

Sadly, I've actually thought about this. I was thinking

"Slather me, lather me, blather me -- Draft thread 5"

Hell bent for lather?