***Sixerfan1976 Official Thread - Update Page 28***

[dbodner]

There is very little about your overall analysis on this site and others that would lead me to believe that you are less likely to be biased than anyone else who posts here.

If you say so.

I have no idea whether or not you had an inclination to like or dislike Big V before you watched film of him, I am simply stating that I am unwilling to accept that assumption that your opinion is based on objective analysis because you saw a bunch of film others did not see

My opinion is based on objective analysis because that is my job.

Let me explain DraftExpress to you.
DraftExpress's model is based off of two things:
1) The website.
2) Consulting European teams.

For 1, our success is dependent on being correct and reliable (or, at least, as close as you can be in these matters). Our goal is to be correct, not to knock down prospects because of the color of their hair or the color of their skin.

For 2, we advise European clubs on (primarily) outgoing collegiate players who are not playing in the US. Our success, and our future employment with said teams, is dependent on finding good fits for their team needs, and making good recommendations to those clubs. Again, being correct is of utmost important.

My opinion is based on objective analysis because my future as a scout is dependent on it. When I'm watching USC, I have no dog in the fight. I don't care whether he's white. I don't care whether he has curly died pink hair with nose rings. I don't care what country he came from. I'm scouting him to figure him out as a basketball player, then figuring out: 1) whether he has the abilities to make it in this league, then 2) figuring out where he would be a good fit.

I had been scouting Vucevic long before the Sixers ever even worked him out. I've been scouting him long before this year. I've formed my opinion on him as a basketball player not as a Sixers fan.

Frankly, I can't stand the "you're biased" argument. Rather than telling someone what about their evaluation is based off of biases, and why it's biased and inaccurate, people just throw the "you're biased" attack against anyone they don't agree with. It's a lazy, fallacy filled argument that holds no merit with me (unless you've proven what and why).

Just out of curiosity, who did you want the sixers to take at sixteen anyway?

Singleton was far and away my #1. I also would have taken Tobias Harris, Donatas, Faried (and if you've read around here, I'm not a Faried fan, at #16 at least), and Jordan Hamilton over him, and probably Tyler Honeycutt.

[dbodner]

Yeah, being athletic is a shortcoming. No bias to that. But people can also have a bias against non-athletes because they are less exciting and likely have lower ceilings.

It's like comparing power hitters to contact hitters. A lot of times people are fans of the home run hitter beyond their stats or impact on the game. People get less excited about a guy who gets less impressive hits.

Disagree. I'd take a guy like Kendrick Perkins as my starting center any day of the week. He's neither athletic nor exciting but he embodies the physicality and toughness to have an impact. That's what I'm looking for from a center.

The problem is Vucevic doesn't do anything at a high enough degree to overcome his athletic shortcomings. He doesn't have the lower body strength to be a lock down low post defender, nor the upper body strength to finish through contact. His jump shot is improving, but not automatic, and he doesn't have the foot speed to defend the perimeter or the pick and roll effectively. He has no single unique attribute to overcome his near historic lack of explosiveness (2nd worst max vert in the past decade amongst players drafted in the first round).

[Kobblehead]

It's pretty sad when it gets to the point where people are attacking the professionalism of an employed scout because he's exposing their insecurities over the pick. Grow up, guys.

[Kobblehead]

The problem is Vucevic doesn't do anything at a high enough degree to overcome his athletic shortcomings. He doesn't have the lower body strength to be a lock down low post defender, nor the upper body strength to finish through contact. His jump shot is improving, but not automatic, and he doesn't have the foot speed to defend the perimeter or the pick and roll effectively. He has no single unique attribute to overcome his near historic lack of explosiveness (2nd worst max vert in the past decade amongst players drafted in the first round).

Yeah, I'm very worried about this pick. If Vucevic's rebounding doesn't translate, this is almost a wasted pick. If that's the case, he'd be a veteran's minimum journeyman for the rest of his career.

[tk76]

He has no single unique attribute to overcome his near historic lack of explosiveness (2nd worst max vert in the past decade amongst players drafted in the first round).

If he is to overcome his lack of explosiveness it will be because he has well above average length and reach. He may lack tremendous strength now, but his physical maturation from 18-20 bodes well that he will continue to add a lot of bulk and strength the next 2-3 years. Couple this with (hopefully) good work ethic, BB IQ, rebounding instincts, touch, ambidexterity and balance and he may be able to overcome is lack of lift.

You certainly are in a better position to project him as a pro. But we'll see. he certainly was not the player I wanted them to pick. But I'm not ready to say he is pre-destined to be a role player as opposed to a quality all around center. If there is a definite problem, it is that even if he reaches his max potential he does not fill the teams long term need for an athletic big to bring out the best in Jrue and ET.

[dbodner]

As a rebounder, I like his instincts and reach. I just see him being a liability defensively (moreso on the perimeter than in the post), an inefficient offensive player, and not good enough laterally or quick enough off his feet to be a good weak side help defender.

He's a 1st or 2nd big off the bench, IMO.

[dbodner]

It's pretty sad when it gets to the point where people are attacking the professionalism of an employed scout because he's exposing their insecurities over the pick. Grow up, guys.

I have been wrong in the past and will be wrong in the future. It's about the only thing any scout or college basketball fan can guarantee. But attack my opinion, don't call me biased without telling me what I'm biased of, or why I'm biased. I just find it incredibly lazy.

[Kobblehead]

Bods, with the combination of Hawes and Vucevic, is it safe to say that the Sixers are going to get pick and rolled to death for 48 minutes a night?

If so, why wasn't this considered by the front office? Can they disguise this glaring hole by having their guards simply fight around or under the pick and just stay with the perimeter player?

[dbodner]

I think the Sixers already have been getting pick and rolled to death. I think it's been a glaring weakness at both big positions for a while, and is greatly stunting Jrue's development as a defender. I would say the addition of Vucevic has only made matters worse, since he'll be taking Battie's minutes, one of our few competent pick, and roll defenders.

[dbodner]

I think what tk and sweatlou are slightly different definitions of biases. To me, in order to be a bias it has to prevent objective analysis. There are certainly people who value some attributes more than others, but that doesn't make them not objective, it's just a difference of opinion on which attributes to place more value (clearly, all attributes are not being equal, so assigning weights to these attributes are critical. It's just getting the weighting down right).

[Kobblehead]

I see what you're saying. TK made a comment along the lines of people maybe being biased against non-athletic centers. But that's not really a bias. It's more so putting a premium on footspeed and more importantly footwork because in this PG driven league, you need those things to be serviceable on the defensive end. It's not like Vuc can just be standing under the rim and challenging each shot. He has to be able to defend the pick and roll and rotate over into a helpside position. Two very important things that his athletic limitations prevent him from doing.

[tk76]

Derek, I think you know this already, but be clear- look back at my initial post. I essentially said I think most people here have an inherent bias against a player like Vucevic... except you because you have actually done the legwork to come to an informed opinion. Then I said that I respect your opinion, but hope you will be wrong

The whole bias thing had nothing to do with your scouting. The follow up posts had to do with why I think Sixer fans (and all fans in general) are more likely to be biased against Vucevic. I have the same bias, so I'm not saying I'm exceptional in this regard. And i'm using a generalization, but its certainly possible that others have drawn conclusion more based on actually research than knee jerk reactions. I can't know what people are thinking.

[tk76]

I see what you're saying. TK made a comment along the lines of people maybe being biased against non-athletic centers. But that's not really a bias. It's more so putting a premium on footspeed...

I don't think we are talking mutually exclusive ideas. You can be biased against below the rim centers and have reasons why those players have limits. If you are biased then you disproportionately weigh your reasoning. Bias does not imply you are irrational.

For example, there is a reason why hiring a person with a criminal record is riskier. But some employers are biased against people with a record beyond the extent to which it is reasonable to where they would never consider hiring a person with a record. Those employers have valid reasoning for their concerns, but still could be biased. IMO being a non-explosive white center is a bit like being an ex-con. There have be lots of other ones out their who have sullied your reputation beyond the reasonable concerns that should be raised

BTW, you may not be biased at all. I certainly don't know. I just think there is a tendency for Sixers fans to have a bias against white, plodding centers that goes beyond their actual limitations.

[dbodner]

tk, I know. That's why I tried to distinguish that in my last post. Basically, I understand what you're saying, I just think the word bias tends to invoke something else in peoples minds (as evidenced by sweatlou and him arguing whether I could objectively analyze).

[tk76]

It's O.T., but I never buy into the concept that people can be completely objective (say a news source.) It's a good goal to try and avoid bias and try and identify it in ourselves and others- but we all are coming from a certain perspective in whatever you do. So I don't see bias as a bad word or criticism of an individual- but I'm sure most do so it that way.

[Kobblehead]

I just think there is a tendency for Sixers fans to have a bias against white, plodding centers that goes beyond their actual limitations.

See, I don't like a comment like that because it lumps posters on here unhappy about the pick with the every day morons that call into WIP. I think if you're posting on RealGM, you deserve the benefit of doubt of not being accused of having casual-fannish reactions like that.

[sweetlou23]

There is very little about your overall analysis on this site and others that would lead me to believe that you are less likely to be biased than anyone else who posts here.

If you say so.

I have no idea whether or not you had an inclination to like or dislike Big V before you watched film of him, I am simply stating that I am unwilling to accept that assumption that your opinion is based on objective analysis because you saw a bunch of film others did not see

My opinion is based on objective analysis because that is my job.

Let me explain DraftExpress to you.
DraftExpress's model is based off of two things:
1) The website.
2) Consulting European teams.

For 1, our success is dependent on being correct and reliable (or, at least, as close as you can be in these matters). Our goal is to be correct, not to knock down prospects because of the color of their hair or the color of their skin.

For 2, we advise European clubs on (primarily) outgoing collegiate players who are not playing in the US. Our success, and our future employment with said teams, is dependent on finding good fits for their team needs, and making good recommendations to those clubs. Again, being correct is of utmost important.

My opinion is based on objective analysis because my future as a scout is dependent on it. When I'm watching USC, I have no dog in the fight. I don't care whether he's white. I don't care whether he has curly died pink hair with nose rings. I don't care what country he came from. I'm scouting him to figure him out as a basketball player, then figuring out: 1) whether he has the abilities to make it in this league, then 2) figuring out where he would be a good fit.

I had been scouting Vucevic long before the Sixers ever even worked him out. I've been scouting him long before this year. I've formed my opinion on him as a basketball player not as a Sixers fan.

Frankly, I can't stand the "you're biased" argument. Rather than telling someone what about their evaluation is based off of biases, and why it's biased and inaccurate, people just throw the "you're biased" attack against anyone they don't agree with. It's a lazy, fallacy filled argument that holds no merit with me (unless you've proven what and why).

Just out of curiosity, who did you want the sixers to take at sixteen anyway?

Singleton was far and away my #1. I also would have taken Tobias Harris, Donatas, Faried (and if you've read around here, I'm not a Faried fan, at #16 at least), and Jordan Hamilton over him, and probably Tyler Honeycutt.

I'm not talking about Draft Express. I'm referring to your various contributions on your sixers oriented sites. And again, i'm not attacking you. I'm just attacking the notion that your opinion is beyond bias. I'm not saying you are biased with regard to Big V or not. I don't know the answer to that question. All I am saying is that you are not beyond being biased.

[tk76]

I just think there is a tendency for Sixers fans to have a bias against white, plodding centers that goes beyond their actual limitations.

See, I don't like a comment like that because it lumps posters on here unhappy about the pick with the every day morons that call into WIP. I think if you're posting on RealGM, you deserve the benefit of doubt of not being accused of having casual-fannish reactions like that.

That's fair.

I can see someone saying "you don't like Vucevic so you must be biased." And that certainly is unfair and an example of lumping everyone with the same opinion with a sweeping generalization.

That said, I stand by my opinion and am not ready to give people here, at WIP or elsewhere the benfit of the doubt. But maybe I'm just mean sprited.

[sweetlou23]

It's pretty sad when it gets to the point where people are attacking the professionalism of an employed scout because he's exposing their insecurities over the pick. Grow up, guys.

What are you talking about? No one is attacking anyone's professionalism. Everyone's opinion is fair game here. I do not understand what you mean by D'bod exposing other people's insecurities over the Big V pic and the grow up comment is unwarranted.

[sixerfan1976]

told the sixers are pessimistic about getting a monta ellis deal done. not agreeing on compensation, largely due to biedrins insisted inclusion and/or GSW not sure they want to trade Monta. M.Jackson pushing hard to keep him.

Sixers are exploring Houston trade with Kevin Martin and either Jordan Hill or Terrence Williams for Iguodala and Speights. Focus definitely on scorer and drafting two bigs has taken away interest in dealing with Clips.