Jerry West vs. Oscar Robertson

[Fencer reregistered]

I was just looking at some highlights, and noticed something -- Robertson had a much more modern-looking form than West, in his shooting and dribbling alike. However, that doesn't make him a better or greater player in my book. Rather, it makes me think he would translate BETTER to the modern era, because he had more "quick benefit" stuff to learn. The other reason I think he'd translate better was superior shooting range. Plus he was regarded as a better defender in his day, giving him a better chance of defending modern players.

Agree? Disagree?

[Manuel Calavera]

Did you mean to say West when you said Robertson and Robertson when you meant to say West?

[Fencer reregistered]

Did you mean to say West when you said Robertson and Robertson when you meant to say West?

No. Perhaps we have been looking at different clips.

I see Robertson's jumper has having a fairly modern form, in which he actually releases the ball while it's almost almost directly over his head. West could do that too, but he also had a lot of the running hooks and so on that were staple shots in the old days.

And notwithstanding the NBA logo, West looked like he more commonly had a less erect and more solidly one-handed dribble than Robertson.

[Dipper 13]

West perhaps had the quickest shot release ever. His moves, notably the signature 2 dribble pullup shot would still be unguardable. Never mind the fact you can't touch him without FT attempts today. Below we can see two brief clips of how quick he got into his shot off the dribble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQgXfMUUivw#t=3m17s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0ZbUk4fXk#t=8m6s

[penbeast0]

West also is the one known for his shooting range rather than Oscar . . . as for the comparisom, it's Hakeem v. DRob only more so. West was known for his clutch play which stats bear out and the defensive difference is not only in reputation as well shows up in the team defensive stats where the Royals led by Oscar were consistently poor which has to get put on the shoulders of Oscar and Jerry Lucas to a large degree. For these reasons, I go with West over Oscar despite Oscar's gaudier numbers and the fact that most contemporaries favored Oscar.

West did have the issue that he basically never went left; but modern relaxed rules on carry dribbles and the like would make any ballhandler from that era much improved today with the possible exception of Marques Haynes.

[ThaRegul8r]

Who’s better, Oscar or me? This is the one single question that has been asked more often that any other since I’ve been playing basketball. And it is really for others to decide, if it can be decided. But I personally have always felt that Oscar was the best.

He has had two big advantages over me. Number one: while we play the same position, he has greater size, which gives him some advantages. And number two: he’s a better ballhandler and passer. That’s for sure. I think we’re about equal as shooters. I’m a better outside shooter, but Oscar is better inside. I may have two advantages over him. One, I’m better defensively. And two (and I’m being so honest about this that it scares me a little), I do believe I’ve played better and done more than he has in certain situations when it counts the most.

[T]hose seeking ammunition for West in the West-Robertson comparison will find plenty of hardware in the playoff evidence. If one argues that the most important games are those played in the post-season, then one can argue that West is second only to Jordan among guards.

While most people […] chose Robertson over West […], a case can be made that West was a better player. Here’s the case. West averaged 27 points for his career to Robertson’s 25.7. He also led Oscar in NBA All-First Team selections, ten to nine. And in NBA All-First Team Defense selections it wasn’t even close. West was chosen four times to Oscar’s none. West was also superior as a clutch performer and in playoff competition. On Robertson’s behalf it could be argued that his all-around play is better. […] But it is splitting hairs to choose one over the other.

His career ppg exceeds Big O's. West Rebounded well enough as a Guard to compete w/ O. West's defensive reputation was rivaled only by Walt Frazier's among Guards who could also score (nowadays we add The Glove & MJ). Oscar's Defense wasn't comparable. For clubs needing a 2-way player, West was better.

[Fencer reregistered]

West perhaps had the quickest shot release ever. His moves, notably the signature 2 dribble pullup shot would still be unguardable. Never mind the fact you can't touch him without FT attempts today. Below we can see two brief clips of how quick he got into his shot off the dribble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQgXfMUUivw#t=3m17s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0ZbUk4fXk#t=8m6s

That first one is telling. On some shots, West looks like Ray Allen. On others, he looks antiquated. (But the shots go in either way. )

In the second one, shot toward the end of his career, West is still leaning every which way on his jumpers.

Bottom line: If I'm wrong, it's because Robertson's form looks just as screwy in other clips I haven't seen yet.

[Wavy Q]

Its hard to watch clips of basketball back in the 60's, just looks so awkward.

[lorak]

Robertson is very underrated on realGM. But he was better player than West. POY threads from the 60s show how much impact Robertson had, Magic like impact. You know, West was also better defender and more clutch player than Magic but really anyone would take the Logo before Johnson? The same is with Robertson vs West.

Who’s better, Oscar or me? This is the one single question that has been asked more often that any other since I’ve been playing basketball. And it is really for others to decide, if it can be decided. But I personally have always felt that Oscar was the best.

You see, West himself admits that Robertson was better.

[Fencer reregistered]

I'm looking through a modern lens, so for Jerry West to say Oscar was his equal as a shooter despite West's greater range doesn't ring true.

[lorak]

There's no evidence of West's greater range. In fact West have worse FT% than Robertson, so it's very doubtful that he was better shooter.

[JordansBulls]

Give me West, much better in the playoffs.

[lorak]

Give me West, much better in the playoffs.

That's another myth.
Robertson's career playoffs stats are lowered because of his later years in Milwaukee when he was second option. But when we compare his stats when he was a leader in Cincinnati to West's stats from playoffs there's no doubt that Big O was as good as Logo, or even better.

Code: Select all

Robertson's and West's playoffs statistics from 1961-62 to 1969-70

stat   OR 62-70   JW 62-70
PPG   29.7      30.9
TS%   56.6      55.6
FT%   86.9      80.6
RPG   9.3      5.9
APG   9.4      5.9


Of course someone might tell that West's prime years were different. So lets look at West's prime, which was from '65 to '72 (5 times in these 8 seasons he finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting):

Code: Select all

stat   OR 62-70   JW 65-72
PPG   29.7      31.0
TS%   56.6      54.2
FT%   86.9      82.5
RPG   9.3      4.8
APG   9.4      6.9


So West was slightly better scorer, but Robertson was more efficient. Interesting that under pressure (all playoffs games are important) Big O was much better FT shooter. He also was much better playmaker and rebounder.

[drza]

Give me West, much better in the playoffs.

That's another myth.
Robertson's career playoffs stats are lowered because of his later years in Milwaukee when he was second option. But when we compare his stats when he was a leader in Cincinnati to West's stats from playoffs there's no doubt that Big O was as good as Logo, or even better.

Code: Select all

Robertson's and West's playoffs statistics from 1961-62 to 1969-70

stat   OR 62-70   JW 62-70
PPG   29.7      30.9
TS%   56.6      55.6
FT%   86.9      80.6
RPG   9.3      5.9
APG   9.4      5.9


Of course someone might tell that West's prime years were different. So lets look at West's prime, which was from '65 to '72 (5 times in these 8 seasons he finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting):

Code: Select all

stat   OR 62-70   JW 65-72
PPG   29.7      31.0
TS%   56.6      54.2
FT%   86.9      82.5
RPG   9.3      4.8
APG   9.4      6.9


So West was slightly better scorer, but Robertson was more efficient. Interesting that under pressure (all playoffs games are important) Big O was much better FT shooter. He also was much better playmaker and rebounder.

This was the impression I got in the RPoY threads as well, that the reputation was for West to be much better in the postseason but that Oscar was just as strong individually, his teams just lost, generally to better teams. The other thing that came from RPoY was the rough offensive/defensive rating measures that someone (ElGee?) came up with, that demonstrated that Oscar was having a ridiculous offensive impact on the team, likely enough to counter West's defensive advantages.

[JordansBulls]

Give me West, much better in the playoffs.

That's another myth.
Robertson's career playoffs stats are lowered because of his later years in Milwaukee when he was second option. But when we compare his stats when he was a leader in Cincinnati to West's stats from playoffs there's no doubt that Big O was as good as Logo, or even better.

Code: Select all

Robertson's and West's playoffs statistics from 1961-62 to 1969-70

stat   OR 62-70   JW 62-70
PPG   29.7      30.9
TS%   56.6      55.6
FT%   86.9      80.6
RPG   9.3      5.9
APG   9.4      5.9


Of course someone might tell that West's prime years were different. So lets look at West's prime, which was from '65 to '72 (5 times in these 8 seasons he finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting):

Code: Select all

stat   OR 62-70   JW 65-72
PPG   29.7      31.0
TS%   56.6      54.2
FT%   86.9      82.5
RPG   9.3      4.8
APG   9.4      6.9


So West was slightly better scorer, but Robertson was more efficient. Interesting that under pressure (all playoffs games are important) Big O was much better FT shooter. He also was much better playmaker and rebounder.

They came in at the same time, and did not West end up playing with Wilt as well?

[lorak]

Old Wilt, who was basically defensive oriented center at the time, for sure he wasn't central point of offense like young Alcindor. Look, Wilt in LAL with West averaged 11.5 FGA, KAJ in MIL with Robertson - 23.6 FGA. So the point still stands - in role similar to West's (central point of offense) Robertson wasn't worse in playoffs.

[JordansBulls]

Old Wilt, who was basically defensive oriented center at the time, for sure he wasn't central point of offense like young Alcindor. Look, Wilt in LAL with West averaged 11.5 FGA, KAJ in MIL with Robertson - 23.6 FGA. So the point still stands - in role similar to West's (central point of offense) Robertson wasn't worse in playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=1971

Compared them thru 1971 because Oscar didn't make it in 1968 and 1969 so needed a few more games for him for the playoffs.

[ahonui06]

Give me West, much better in the playoffs.

West scored well, but his "clutch" factor is a myth.

If he was so "clutch" he wouldn't have lost to the same guy every year, Bill Russell.

[JordansBulls]

Give me West, much better in the playoffs.

West scored well, but his "clutch" factor is a myth.

If he was so "clutch" he wouldn't have lost to the same guy every year, Bill Russell.

Yeah he averaged nearly 38 ppg while Russell averaged 9 ppg in the 1969 finals including 6 in the pivotal game 7 and had 6 players on his own team outscore him for the series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm

[ahonui06]

Give me West, much better in the playoffs.

West scored well, but his "clutch" factor is a myth.

If he was so "clutch" he wouldn't have lost to the same guy every year, Bill Russell.

Yeah he averaged nearly 38 ppg while Russell averaged 9 ppg in the 1969 finals including 6 in the pivotal game 7 and had 6 players on his own team outscore him for the series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm

Celtics came back to win the 1969 Finals in Game 7 in LA thanks to Mr. Clutch Bill Russell. Russell's defense doesn't show up in those box scores.

West can be happy he won his bogus Finals MVP for that series though.