Top Heavy Teams vs Champ Model pt.1 Success & Fail

[Ruhiel]

In the past players have stacked teams with Defense so they can get the ball to their scorers.
ie Defense Garnett+ >> Rondo


1999-2011 Team Success (Defense)
1998-1999 Spurs
Rk Age Name Defensive Rtg Defensive Wins Shared WS/48
#1 33 - David Robinson 88 4.4* - 39mpg, 81 Games .261
#2 22 - Tim Duncan 91 4.7* - 31mpg, 64* Games .213
................
2002-2003 Spurs
Rk Age Name Defensive Rtg Defensive Wins Shared
#1 26 - Tim Duncan 94 6.9 - 39mpg, 81 Games
#2 37 - David Robinson 95 3.6* - 26mpg, 64* Games
*David: (injured)(Even Lower mpg in Playoffs [23mpg] & Still Won In the End #DuncanEffect)
..............
2003-2004 Pistons
Rk Age Name Defensive Rtg Defensive Wins Shared
#1 29 - Ben Wallace 87 6.9
#2 37 - Rasheed Wallace 95 1.7* (4.7 w/o Ben
*Rasheed: (traded twice-mid season #POR>ATL>DET)
**(only 21 Games w/Detroit before Playoffs)=
Did Rasheed PRACTICE???; Ben's Hall-Fame #s on Defense+Wallace Def. made the game easy
::::::::::

ATLANTA HAWKS FANBASE !

2009-2010 Hawks
Rk Age Name Defensive Rtg Defensive Wins Shared
#1 24 - Josh Smith 101 5.1*
#2 23 - Al Horford 105 3.9*
2009-2010 Hawks
Rk Age Name Defensive Rtg Defensive Wins Offensive Rtg
#1 24 - Josh Smith 101 5.1* 109 (+8)
#2 23 - Al Horford 105 3.9* 121 (+16)
........
#3 24 - Marvin Williams 107 2.6* 113 (+6) - backup
#4 23 - Joe Johnson 109 2.4*: 112 (+3)
#5 31 - Mike Bibby 110 1.7* : 113 (+3)
#6 29 - Jamal Crawford 110 1.7*: 114 (+4)
#3 25 - Zaza Pachulia 104 1.5 110 (+6) - backup
.........
So basically our backups > starters on defense and even some on offense and stacking defenders + scorers with Josh as a luxury is our only legitimate chance at a title.
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Balanced models: accumulate non All Star Contracts and use DEFENSE to optimize Talent.

But there's hope!! Dallas set the new record for lows of defense and thus gave hope to stacked team basketball !

They did it with bad defenders, the Pistons, Spurs, and now the Hawks will do it with offense.
* champ caliber= 102 or underneath
Failed Models
SAC 2003-04 Sacramento Kings Roster
#1 - Brad Miller 2621 minutes = 3.0 Defensive Wins
#2 - Doug Christie = 2.4 Defensive Wins

* champ caliber= 0
MIN 2003-2004 Minnesota Timberwolves Roster
#1 - 27yo - Kevin Garnett 3231 minutes = 8.0 Defensive Wins *champ caliber
#2 - 34yo - Sam Cassell 3231 minutes = 3.3 Defensive Wins
* champ caliber= 1
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PHX: Marion (102 points allowed pace) 29yo Steve Nash (112 points allowed pace)
Below average activity even with Nash:
Boris Diaw (9.7%) = fat
Kurt Thomas (11%)= slow and played a different pace.

[parson]

You're, of course, right, but I'd add that we need to revamp our offense to better utilize the players we DO have.

What I'm driving at are Horford and Joe's comments that we are a "jump-shooting team." I'm not sure Horford was speaking well of the situation when he said that. Maybe Drew's offense is designed to settle for jumpers.

Case in point: I look at Smith and I see someone who could dominate on drives and post-ups, yet we station him outside. Then he shoots from where we station him and we scream in anger. Maybe if we get him the ball closer to the basket, he'll score more and we'll scream less.

Another example: Drew looks uncomfortable with Teague driving so much, even though he can score well that way. Maybe the reason Drew hasn't wanted to play Teague is that he wants a PG who shoots like Bibby.

But your goal of accumulating more talent rings true to me. But if we can get more out of Horford and Smith (better ball movement to get them open for moves to the basket) and out of Joe (better health), we would have more talent.

[Ruhiel]

Basically everyone on the Hawks not named Josh Smith is not a championship caliber defender.
They all cannibalize each others points and shots and give up points on the other end.

with the lessening minutes and effectiveness of players ie Kobe the top heavy teams will be forced to play mostly below average players that are one dimensional and weak links.

OLD TEAM MODELS: superstar defense = WIN or superstar offense = WIN
NEW TEAM MODELS: conserve minutes and attack in waves

Note: if they are 12% and below and play with superstar they are probably old/1-dimensional/decline

**= guys who'd fuel your superstars.
*= model fell apart (age/speed)

2005-2006 miami age min WS/48 USG%
36 minutes
1 Dwyane Wade 24 38.6 0.239** 32.5 24%
30 minutes or less
2 Alonzo Mourning 35 20.0* 0.176** 17.5 18%* 20mpg
3 Shaquille O'Neal 33 30.6 0.164** 30.0 16% 30mpg

there top 3 filter talents players only played 81 minutes! out of 144 starter minutes.
But Haslem filled his role at 13% and Williams at 12%.

In the playoff matchups Mourning was limited but a superstar (20%) while on the court.
The power forward Haslem had the highest offensive rating as he was the floor spacer and slashing 4.
::::::
Mavs 2006: Best defenders Mbenga & Diop
Mavs 2011 :
age Playoffs
32 Dirk - 39mpg 21%
28 Chandler 32 mpg 18.8%
33 Terry 32 mpg 17.9%

Top 3 Defenders: Tyson 102, Kidd 104, Dirk 105
Offense: Tyson Chandler's defense and low usg% (102+ 14%), fueled everyone's offense which in turn got him open for shots (.697 TS%).

Lakers 08-09 Playoffs
Kobe 24% + Gasol 22% + Odom 17% + Ariza 14%
Now the Pistons model = no

[parson]

Basically everyone on the Hawks not named Josh Smith is not a championship caliber defender.

Disagree. Horford, Joe, Hinrich, Marvelous and Teague all do very well. Teague has all-NBA potential on defense. He did well against Derrick Rose, even with Rose getting all that referee love.

Josh Smith is our worst man defender -- and now that he's playing SF, he needs to buck up even more.
He is a truly wonderful shot-blocker, though.

[Ruhiel]

Basically everyone on the Hawks not named Josh Smith is not a championship caliber defender.

Disagree. Horford, Joe, Hinrich, Marvelous and Teague all do very well. Teague has all-NBA potential on defense. He did well against Derrick Rose, even with Rose getting all that referee love.

Are we talking about regular season or the post season??

ATL lost 20 games post trade.
Half the time we played small ball and ZONE defense.
We play a normal lineup and Jason Collins and suddenly we only allow 90 ppg.
Jamal, Hinrich, Bibby, Joe were all below average for the reg season.

Josh Smith is the only one with above 4 Defensive Wins. Per 100 possessions Even playing with Josh throughout the season, Pachulia allows 104. Williams 107.
Horford allows 105 points while hes on the floor.
Hinrich and Bibby have both had 4 games where the opposing team is on pace for 140 points.

This team is terrible on defense without Smith. ATL has idiotic signings and time and time again they sign more and more shooters.

This team is 15th defensively and since we can't get the ball on defense and play with big guards we're the 3rd slowest team in the league.

Hawks are building around the wrong players. Horford statistic wise has peaked as a prime Brad Miller without post moves.

This team is so inept at what they need to do its sad.