RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - The Greatest Player of All-Time

[GreenHat]

Yeah but to me it's the overall body of work. Again, that's why I loathe "rings" and ignoring team settings. People were a little slow on the uptake, because it wasn't scoring (we STILL overvalue volume scoring 50 years later, so...). When Russell went in the game, Boston got waaaaaaay better. That was independent of the final title.

You are right -- if he had 4 rings, he probably would be underrated. Kind of like Nate Thurmond is probably underrated (and Russ was waaaaaaay better than Nate Thurmond). But let's say Boston kept posting those ridonculou SRS's and winning the East and lost 4 or 5 times in the Finals instead of just the once. That should still be enough evidence to showcase Russell. Or similarly, if a bunch of highly regarded players retired and the team actually *improved.* (Wait, that actually happened ) Again, title at the end of the season aside.

I agree, but that's the whole point I was alluding to -- without those rings, I'd argue that Russell's reputation would plummet.

I hate when people just magically handwave rings to and away from players. If Russell had only four rings, then evidently he didn't do something in this hypothetical scenario that he did in real life, which resulted in the championships won in actuality. Didn't block that shot by Coleman at the end of Game 7 of the '57 Finals, didn't drop 30/40 in Game 7 of the '62 Finals when his entire frontcourt fouled out of the game, for example.

What if one of his HOF teammates laid an egg in one of those games they had a big game in. Would that make Russell any better or worse? Of course it shouldn't.

What if there was a team that had vastly more talent, would that make Russell worse at basketball? No

Winning rings isn't just about being the best player. Its being on the team that is better than the other in each series (a lot easier when you only have to win two instead of four). You don't even have to be the best team. Obviously you contribute to that, but so does your teammates, your coaches, your opponents, some luck, injuries, etc.

Just like a player shouldn't get all the blame for not winning it all, a player shouldn't get all the credit for winning it all. There are so many other factors.

[ThaRegul8r]

I hate when people just magically handwave rings to and away from players. If Russell had only four rings, then evidently he didn't do something in this hypothetical scenario that he did in real life, which resulted in the championships won in actuality. Didn't block that shot by Coleman at the end of Game 7 of the '57 Finals, didn't drop 30/40 in Game 7 of the '62 Finals when his entire frontcourt fouled out of the game, for example.

What if one of his HOF teammates laid an egg

Oh, you mean like Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman going a combined 5-for-40 in the aforementioned '57 Finals Game 7? You mean like that?

[ElGee]

Yeah but to me it's the overall body of work. Again, that's why I loathe "rings" and ignoring team settings. People were a little slow on the uptake, because it wasn't scoring (we STILL overvalue volume scoring 50 years later, so...). When Russell went in the game, Boston got waaaaaaay better. That was independent of the final title.

You are right -- if he had 4 rings, he probably would be underrated. Kind of like Nate Thurmond is probably underrated (and Russ was waaaaaaay better than Nate Thurmond). But let's say Boston kept posting those ridonculou SRS's and winning the East and lost 4 or 5 times in the Finals instead of just the once. That should still be enough evidence to showcase Russell. Or similarly, if a bunch of highly regarded players retired and the team actually *improved.* (Wait, that actually happened ) Again, title at the end of the season aside.

I agree, but that's the whole point I was alluding to -- without those rings, I'd argue that Russell's reputation would plummet.

Not fairly, perhaps. And you could obviously say that about virtually every player.

But I can't think of anyone else whose legacy was cemented more by winning than Russell's. He played such a cerebral and subtle style, one that didn't translate at all to the box score or surface evaluation, that his impact would largely be ignored if he didn't have all those rings to back it up. There would be no real reason to look all that closely at him.

I don't know if that made any sense. I was just curious about your opinion as an anti-ring proponent, on a player whose legacy would be drastically reduced without them.

Drza said it nicely. I do think Russell would become incredibly underrated by the masses if he only had a few titles. I actually cringe when I see people cite "11 rings" because that's not really where I see Russell's strengths (I used to think he was overrated before pouring over his career.) In terms of peak, I think he has an argument for the 3rd-best one in NBA history...and he was voted MVP in at least one of those seasons *before* he went on to win the title. So this is not a retroactive appreciation people had for him. Still, if he's stuck in Minnesota to start his career, people are going to label him a loser or something ridiculous, even if his +/- was +25...

If you're asking if I worry about how that changes my own perspective (winning bias), yes, I do. I think that's why I talk about Karl Malone so much. I -- we -- need to be careful not to suppress guys who weren't in better situations and not to prop up guys who were in good situations.


@GreenHat - those are fair points. I try to focus less on rules differences (outside player control) and more on what I perceive as competition level. For instance, I think the quality of play this year was phenomenal across the league. I think the quality of play and competition in 1999 wasn't. That's how *I* adjust for era. I don't take it any further than that, although your questions are good ones.

[penbeast0]

How did MJ not dominate two areas? Obviously scoring was one and defense was the other and if you want clutchness as a 3rd area. He actually made key plays down the stretch in pivotal games as well. Russell isn't even the all time rpg average leader.
On another note, remember Russell during his run for 8 titles won 16 series during those years and overall 25 series in the years he won titles while MJ in his runs had to win 4 series a year for 24 series. Overall Russell won 27 playoff series, while Jordan won 30 playoff series all as the best player on the team.
. . .
On your other point, the reason scoring is more important is because it is the only thing that guarantees that you win. If a team has the most rebounds in a game or blocks, free throws, you may not win, but if you have the most total points in a game it is a gurantee you would win the game.

I love you JB, you are so passionate about your idol and yet . . .

Jordan was a terrific defender but nowhere near Russell’s impact in that area. Jordan’s defense is on the level of Russell’s passing, great but not why he’s a GOAT candidate.

Russell was incredibly clutch also. It’s hard not to be with the win records of Jordan and Russell; just Russell did it with clutch rebounding and defense generally.

And while Wilt is the all time rpg leader, let’s look at those numbers. Wilt stands at 22.89, Russell at 22.45 in about 3-4 less minutes a game (their per 36 numbers are 18reb and 19.1reb respectively – Rodman stands at 14.3). Even more telling, look at the rpg of #3, Bob Pettit, with 16.22rpg. For MJ to dominate the 3rd greatest scorer the way Russell dominates the 3rd greatest rebounder, he’d have had to average 38ppg instead of 30! The difference between Russell and #3 is the difference between MJ and the #32 scorer, Amare. That’s dominance! And remember that MJ wouldn’t be #1 on the scoring charts if Wilt hadn’t been convinced to copy Russell as a lower scoring passing and defensive hub – if scoring was that much more valuable, how come a HOF coach changed this and how come it led to Wilt’s only two titles?

And while Jordan won 30 series to Russell's 27, he lost 7 series to Russell only losing 2 (one of which Russell was injured). That is a win % of .810 (great) v. 93% (incredible!) and Russell didn't get to play as many mediocre 1st round opponents so this win% differential could be even greater.

Finally, if you stop the other guy from scoring as many points as you do, you win. Period. It doesn't matter how many points you score; so Russell's defense is more valuable than MJ's offense by that rather silly standard. The book Wages of Win finds there are 4 major factors that correlate most strongly to winning and none of those 4 dominates the others. They are (a) offensive efficiency -- this is clearly Jordan's territory both as a very efficient scorer and as a guy who can create shots when the clock is running out. (b) defensive efficiency -- this is clearly Russell's territory as no one has had the consistent defensive impact he had and Jordan's defensive impact isn't close. (c) rebounding differential -- again, Russell dominates. Like defense, this is a reason big men are more valuable than little ones, positional impact being near equal. (d) turnover efficiency -- both were good passers, both created turnovers. I'd guess this favors Russell for his ability to block shots to his teammates and relatively superior passing but not by the same margins. So, it seems that impact on winning isn't just scoring, scoring, scoring or George Gervin, Allen Iverson,and Dominque Wilkins would have multiple rings.

[drza]

Also, another thing that I'd decry in this discussion is the "narrative" that Jordan was somehow "willing a team to greatness by himself" while Russell was the lucky one to have a great supporting cast. Russell may have been coached by Aurbach, but Jordan was coached by the man to break Aurbach's championships record. Russell did play with guys that made the Hall of Fame, but relative to his time his cast wasn't any more super-powered than Jordan's was with respect to his time. In the 90s, besides Chicago, how many other teams sported a very legitimate MVP candidate as the 2nd option on the team? While also sporting a third borderline-All Star caliber player at big forward and a strong cast of role players that, among them, would also get some All Star attention? To my knowledge, the answer is pretty close to zero. The mid-90s Bulls showed themselves capable of 55 wins while Jordan was playing baseball.

Now, does any of that diminish what Jordan did? OF COURSE NOT! If you're judging based on a player's individual impact, or at least trying to, then it doesn't matter how good their teammates were or weren't. That might make a difference in how many rings a player gets (which is why rings shouldn't be a stand-alone argument), but it doesn't make a difference in how good the player plays or in their impact. Which is the lion share of what I'm trying to vote on.

But I bring it up because, otherwise, I think folks do talk themselves into the narrative that Jordan was somehow doing more with less than Russell was. Yeah, Russell's teams had more scoring on them...but MJ's teammates were better defensively. In the end, a supporting cast isn't defined solely by their scoring average. There's more than one way to be valuable to a team. And Jordan's cast allowed him to focus on what he was best at, what he was needed for at any given time just as much as Russell's allowed him to play to his own strengths.

[Dipper 13]

Russell as the GOAT when it wasn't immediately clear that he's the best player from his era. The lack of 1st team nods

It appears that All NBA teams were selected by the press, not the players (who selected MVP). As far as consistent and sustained dominance along with playoff heroics, nobody outside of Jordan approaches Russell.



Baltimore Afro-American - Apr 16, 1963

[penbeast0]

I vote for Michael Jordan.


The vote has come down to Russell, Wilt and MJ.
My criterias are : 1 raw abilities and dominance 2 achievements 3 impact
criteria 1
Russell:
Most dominant defender ever, not great scorer. Very competitive and mentally unbeatable.
Wilt:
Arguably the best center ever, total dominance on the offensive end of the floor. Choked in big games sometimes. Arguably the best athlete ever played the game.
MJ:
The best scorer ever, plays both ends of the floor. Very competitive and mentally unbeatable, very clutch in big moments. Arguably the best athlete ever played the game.
MJ>>Wilt>Russell

criteria 2
Russell:
Most rings ever, although playoffs were only two rounds. Only 3 ALL-NBA first team selections could hurt his resume.
Wilt:
Only 2 rings in a easier playoffs era. Led the NBA in scoring seven years in a row.
MJ:
6 rings 5 mvps. 10 times scoring champ. Never lost a final series.
MJ=Russell>Wilt

criteria 3
MJ has a bigger impact thanks to the tv coverages and internet. His dominance and creativity made basketball a much more popular sport compared to Wilt or Russell.
MJ>Wilt=Russell

So MJ takes it.

Once again, ignores rebounding completely . . . not sure why averaging 22 rebounds a game over 13 years doesn't impress certain people but apparently it doesn't. And, peak, the greatest scorer ever is Wilt, not MJ; and Wilt's coaches talked him into giving it up to try to copy Russell . . . how's that for impact.

[rrravenred]

[On your other point, the reason scoring is more important is because it is the only thing that guarantees that you win. If a team has the most rebounds in a game or blocks, free throws, you may not win, but if you have the most total points in a game it is a gurantee you would win the game.

No, the thing that guarantees your team wins is if your team at the end of the game has more points than your opposition. THere are a lot of differing ways to contribute to that outcome.

[penbeast0]

Players simply weren't as big and tall back then, so both Russ & Wilt had a HUGE advantage that cannot be ignored(Wilt due to his size, Russ due to his athleticism). For much of his career, Russ went against guys in the 6'7'6'9 range.

You been corrected on this misstatement before but you keep repeating it. Without doing the research again, the last time you said this DrMJ showed you a list of all the centers in the league in both the year you were referring to historically and the current one and showed that, the listed heights were almost identical . . . and that's with the 60s centers being measured in socks while the 00s centers were in shoes so actually the 60s players averaged a good inch taller.

That's because the 60s were a center oriented era so it was more important to have the big post defender while today there is more a focus on wing/slasher scoring and many more bigs who play like wings with dribbling and outside shooting since the rules were changed several times to keep the Russells and Wilts from dominating the game as much. You might be right to say today's centers are quicker or more athletic (though Russell was a freak in those respects much more than in height where he was pretty average) but you are dead wrong about the height issue . . . again.

[Sedale Threatt]

Drza said it nicely.

Agreed, that was a good post.

The only thing I didn't like is the "narrative about scoring" part. That's not narrative -- there's a pretty concrete track record, established over many decades, of the greatest players being able to get clutch buckets for their team. That's a pretty nice quality.

Obviously, Russell shows us that there is more than one way to dominate, but he is an extreme outlier in this context.

Otherwise, I agreed with everything.

It's probably a foolish angle, as -- fair or not -- every player's reputation would dip without rings. I just wanted to see what your stance was.

[ThaRegul8r]

Very true. I'm sure Russell would have racked up All-D & DPOY awards, which is a major point in his favor. Even still though, Wilt seemed to be the more complete player. A guy who could score at a much higher volume and with better efficiency than Russell by a huge margin. Wilt was the better rebounder, while Russ was the far superior defender.

“From the standpoint of technique, Russell is the acknowledged rebound artist of the N.B.A. His forte is position play—getting between the basket and opponents to intercept the ball as it descends. ‘That’s the basic move,’ Russell says. ‘If a man half a head shorter has position of me, I can’t get the ball unless I foul him’.”

Jack Ramsay says that the best rebounder he ever saw was a “[t]ossup between Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. With Russell it was timing and tenacity. Chamberlain was just powerful.”

“He swept the boards with a grace and efficiency that stood in sharp contrast to Chamberlain’s raw power.”

Leaving myself out of the competition […], here, in my fairly knowledgeable opinion, are the five best centers of all time:

Bill Russell has to be number one. Possession of the ball is the single most important element of the game of basketball and Russell was the best rebounder I’ve ever seen. He gets a lot of credit for his shot blocking and defense, but rebounding—getting the damn ball—is what counts. Russell got the ball better than anyone else, so he’s the best.

: “Where I see him as the tremendous player is as a rebounder. He was the only guy who could rebound along with me, and sometimes I thought he was a better rebounder than I was. He used more things to get to the ball than I had to use. I always had the highest respect for his rebounding. […]”

Chamberlain averaged 22.9 rebounds per game over his career and Russell 22.5, a difference of only 0.4 RPG. But Chamberlain played significantly more minutes per game statistically than Russell did. Chamberlain averaged 45.8 minutes per game over his career to Russell’s 42.3 MPG. After 13 seasons in the league, both Russell and Chamberlain played exactly the same number of games—963. Here’s a comparison:

Player Yrs G Reb RPG Min MPG RPM
Russell 13 963 21620 22.5 40726 42.3 .531
Chamberlain 13 963 22398 23.3 44317 46.0 .505

Chamberlain had 778 more rebounds than Russell in the same amount of games, but they came in 3,591 more minutes. Russell actually grabbed more rebounds during the time that he was on the floor than Chamberlain did.

NBA CAREER LEADERS IN REBOUNDS-PER-MINUTE
Gm Min Reb RPM
1. Bill Russell 963 40726 21620 .531
2. Wilt Chamberlain 1045 47859 23924 .500
3. Bob Pettit 792 30690 12849 .419
4. Dennis Rodman 911 28839 11954 .415
5. Nate Thurmond 964 35875 14464 .403
6. Jerry Lucas 829 32101 12942 .403
7. Wes Unseld 984 35832 13769 .384
8. Bill Walton 468 13250 4923 .372
9. Moses Malone 1329 45071 16212 .369
10. Gus Johnson 581 20140 7379 .366

Russell averaged 19.1 rebounds per 36 minutes in the regular season to Chamberlain’s 18.0 per 36. Russell’s the all-time postseason rebound-per-game leader, averaging 24.9 rebounds per game to Chamberlain’s 24.5. Per 36, Russell has a 19.7 to 18.7 edge.

there is a side of basketball that can’t be measured in numbers. Often, it is not how many rebounds a player gets, but when does he get them? Does it happen in the middle of the second quarter when no one else is under the basket or does it happen late in the game when everyone is jumping over your back and trying to tear your head off to get to the ball? The same with blocks. Do you swat the shot when it doesn’t matter or during the last minute of play when a basket can decide the game?

Russell appealed to those with an artist’s sense of the game. His baskets, his rebounds, his blocks all seemed to come when it really meant something.

When it counts, Bill Russell is the best rebounder of all. Wilt and Nate Thurmond are great rebounding centers, […] but Russell is far and away the best the game has ever known.

Russell was the best clutch rebounder this game has ever seen. There’s no doubt about it. When they needed a rebound for them, Bill Russell went and got it for them. He made all the difference in the world.

In big games, no one was better. In the fourth quarter, he’d get every defensive rebound. How are you supposed to win when you get only one shot and there’s Russell sweeping the backboards?

With Russ in the lineup, you don’t lose those close, important games because Russ will always be there to get you the rebound you need.

[GreenHat]

I hate when people just magically handwave rings to and away from players. If Russell had only four rings, then evidently he didn't do something in this hypothetical scenario that he did in real life, which resulted in the championships won in actuality. Didn't block that shot by Coleman at the end of Game 7 of the '57 Finals, didn't drop 30/40 in Game 7 of the '62 Finals when his entire frontcourt fouled out of the game, for example.

What if one of his HOF teammates laid an egg

Oh, you mean like Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman going a combined 5-for-40 in the aforementioned '57 Finals Game 7? You mean like that?

That's totally what I meant, that Bill Russell's teammates NEVER had a bad game that they ended up winning.

And I mean like even in that example that you cherry picked, Heinshon had 37 and 23. If he only gets 33 and 23 they end up losing and that would have nothing to do with Russell. Its fortunate that he had a rookie on his team that put up 37 and 23 in game 7 of the finals, no?

[rrravenred]

Obviously Russell had the most defensive impact relative to era but even if one were to concede the point that Russell is the best defensive player of all time absolutely and not relatively, my contention is that the HUGE gap would decrease significantly if he wasn't playing in a league where 42% efg is considered elite. Not to mention a league where players can shoot threes outside his sphere of influence or where an offense can scheme to limit his impact on defense.

This is a key point (even if I'm not in love with your overall argument). The legaue has altered in ways which diminish the potential impact that Russ would have had. Russ (and to a degree Wilt) were in the perfect eras in which to maximise the impact of their skillset. This argument is also true for a lot of the top-10 contributors.

I'm unwilling to count that against him, however. Greats will generally be great in any era, as their prime advantage over their peers lies between their ears.

[JordansBulls]

To add more stats to the debate here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3175


1)
Jordan, Kareem and Wilt have led in Win Shares 9 times each and the next closest is 5.
In the playoffs Jordan led in Win Shares 7 times and Russell 5 times. Those are the top 2 in the postseason.




2)
How crazy is it that Jordan led the league in playoff WS 7 times and only even made the finals 6 times?
I know it’s fully possible to play more games than either finalist without making the finals,
but still… Actually looking at the list again I think Jordan is the only NBA player to lead the
playoff WS without making the finals. And he did it twice.



3)
Some would argue that leading in WS in the playoffs is more
valuable (since deeper in playoffs you go the more opportunity you have to generate WS) - interestingly
16 (/58) times has the reg. season WS leader
also been PS Ws leader (MJ= 6 and Kareem 2nd with 3) - But
that player has been the league MVP only 7 of those
times (MJ 3 times, 2000 Shaq, 1983 Moses Malone, 1986 Larry Bird, and Kareem in 1980) - all
of those players went on to be finals MVP, except Kareem who was injured and a young
Magic rode Kareem’s efforts to the title and finals MVP.





http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... eer_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Magic Johnson* 32.63
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08
6. Tim Duncan 28.84
7. Bill Russell* 27.76
8. Julius Erving* 26.89
9. Kobe Bryant 26.85
10. Jerry West* 26.75



http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... rly_p.html

2011 NBA LeBron James 3.81 MIA
2010 NBA Pau Gasol 4.25 LAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 4.83 CLE
2008 NBA Kevin Garnett 4.10 BOS
2007 NBA LeBron James 3.73 CLE
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 5.39 DAL
2005 NBA Chauncey Billups 4.59 DET
2004 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.86 LAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 5.94 SAS
2002 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.81 LAL
2001 NBA Kobe Bryant 3.76 LAL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 4.67 LAL
1999 NBA Tim Duncan 3.71 SAS
1998 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.81 CHI
1997 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.94 CHI
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.68 CHI
1995 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.02 ORL
1994 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 4.28 HOU
1993 NBA Charles Barkley* 4.60 PHO
1992 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.13 CHI
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.77 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.98 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.04 CHI
1988 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.99 LAL
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.68 LAL
1986 NBA Larry Bird* 4.23 BOS
1985 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.01 LAL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 4.72 BOS
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 2.84 PHI
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 3.00 PHI
1981 NBA Moses Malone* 3.46 HOU
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.26 LAL
1979 NBA Gus Williams 2.72 SEA
1978 NBA Elvin Hayes* 3.06 WSB
1977 NBA Julius Erving* 3.40 PHI
1976 NBA Dave Cowens* 2.71 BOS
1975 NBA Rick Barry* 3.09 GSW
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 4.69 MIL
1973 NBA Walt Frazier* 3.02 NYK
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 3.33 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.26 MIL
1970 NBA Jerry West* 3.19 LAL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 4.31 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 3.60 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 3.78 PHI
1966 NBA Bill Russell* 3.25 BOS
1965 NBA Bill Russell* 3.34 BOS
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 3.75 SFW
1963 NBA Bill Russell* 2.53 BOS
1962 NBA Bill Russell* 3.60 BOS
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.99 LAL
1960 NBA Bill Russell* 2.97 BOS
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 2.04 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 2.72 STL
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 1.66 STL
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 2.23 PHW
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 1.84 SYR
1954 NBA George Mikan* 3.46 MNL
1953 NBA George Mikan* 1.97 MNL
1952 NBA George Mikan* 2.37 MNL



MJ led in Playoff Win Shares 7x and Russell 5x. The most for any player




http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... early.html

2010-11 NBA LeBron James 15.59 MIA
2009-10 NBA LeBron James 18.46 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 20.25 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 17.79 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 16.34 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 17.72 DAL
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett 16.11 MIN
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 18.33 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tim Duncan 16.45 SAS
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 17.81 SAS
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 14.94 LAL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 18.65 LAL
1998-99 NBA Karl Malone 9.62 UTA
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone 16.35 UTA
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 18.30 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 20.43 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 17.46 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 19.98 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 17.24 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 17.73 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 20.30 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 18.99 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 19.80 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 21.23 CHI
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 16.89 CHI
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 15.81 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 15.67 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 14.61 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 15.10 PHI
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 15.42 HOU
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.26 LAL
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.84 LAL
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.38 LAL
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 12.70 DEN
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.81 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.01 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 17.81 BUF
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.45 MIL
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.86 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.37 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.31 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 15.15 LAL
1968-69 NBA Willis Reed* 14.69 NYK
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 20.38 PHI
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 21.87 PHI
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 21.42 PHI
1964-65 NBA Oscar Robertson* 16.95 CIN
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 24.98 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 20.94 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 23.11 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 18.83 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 17.01 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 14.75 STL
1957-58 NBA Dolph Schayes* 13.73 SYR
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.68 PHW
1955-56 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.92 PHW
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.39 PHW
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 18.30 PHW
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.33 PHW
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 16.01 PHW


MJ led in Season Win Shares 9x and Wilt and Kareem as well led in it 9x. The most for any player




http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... eer_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 27.32
2. Magic Johnson* 23.10
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.82
4. Jerry West* 21.34
5. Shaquille O'Neal 20.12
6. Kobe Bryant 19.54
7. Dirk Nowitzki 17.04
8. Julius Erving* 16.29
9. Reggie Miller 16.18
10. Wilt Chamberlain* 15.65



http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... rly_p.html

2011 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 2.72 DAL
2010 NBA Pau Gasol 3.18 LAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 3.68 CLE
2008 NBA Chris Paul 2.38 NOH
2007 NBA LeBron James 2.10 CLE
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 3.81 DAL
2005 NBA Manu Ginobili 3.01 SAS
2004 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 2.58 LAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 3.27 SAS
2002 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 2.59 LAL
2001 NBA Ray Allen 3.19 MIL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.59 LAL
1999 NBA Tim Duncan 2.06 SAS
1998 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.63 CHI
1997 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.47 CHI
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.36 CHI
1995 NBA Clyde Drexler* 2.17 HOU
1994 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.32 HOU
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.34 CHI
1992 NBA Terry Porter 2.96 POR
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.23 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.70 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.81 CHI
1988 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.18 LAL
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 2.58 LAL
1986 NBA Larry Bird* 2.71 BOS
1985 NBA Magic Johnson* 2.04 LAL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 3.04 BOS
1983 NBA Johnny Moore 1.77 SAS
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 1.95 PHI
1981 NBA Moses Malone* 2.43 HOU
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2.21 LAL
1979 NBA Gus Williams 1.99 SEA
1978 NBA Elvin Hayes* 1.39 WSB
1977 NBA Julius Erving* 2.56 PHI
1976 NBA Phil Smith 1.57 GSW
1975 NBA Rick Barry* 1.77 GSW
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.17 MIL
1973 NBA Walt Frazier* 2.27 NYK
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 2.56 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.95 MIL
1970 NBA Jerry West* 2.64 LAL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 3.23 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 3.06 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 1.83 PHI
1966 NBA Jerry West* 2.71 LAL
1965 NBA Jerry West* 1.89 LAL
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 2.12 SFW
1963 NBA Oscar Robertson* 2.04 CIN
1962 NBA Jerry West* 2.20 LAL
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.70 LAL
1960 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.01 MNL
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 1.50 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 2.58 STL
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 1.47 STL
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 1.73 PHW
1955 NBA Bill Sharman* 1.08 BOS
1954 NBA George Mikan* 1.98 MNL
1953 NBA Ernie Vandeweghe 1.00 NYK
1952 NBA Connie Simmons 1.39 NYK


MJ led in Playoff Offensive Win Shares 7x and Jerry West 6x and Magic 4x. The most for any player



http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... early.html

2010-11 NBA LeBron James 10.31 MIA
2009-10 NBA LeBron James 13.30 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 13.74 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 13.20 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 11.85 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 13.47 DAL
2004-05 NBA Amare Stoudemire 11.26 PHO
2003-04 NBA Peja Stojakovic 11.35 SAC
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 13.24 ORL
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 10.72 SAS
2000-01 NBA Ray Allen 11.49 MIL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 11.66 LAL
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 7.17 LAL
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone 12.09 UTA
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 13.29 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.20 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 10.72 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 13.33 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 12.00 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 12.11 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.86 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.68 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.61 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 15.16 CHI
1986-87 NBA Magic Johnson* 12.06 LAL
1985-86 NBA Adrian Dantley* 10.42 UTA
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 10.45 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 12.97 UTA
1982-83 NBA Kiki Vandeweghe 10.46 DEN
1981-82 NBA Adrian Dantley* 11.91 UTA
1980-81 NBA Adrian Dantley* 12.32 UTA
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9.54 LAL
1978-79 NBA Moses Malone* 10.61 HOU
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 10.76 DEN
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 11.90 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9.82 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 12.73 BUF
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 10.92 BUF
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.37 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.31 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.01 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 11.48 LAL
1968-69 NBA Oscar Robertson* 12.23 CIN
1967-68 NBA Oscar Robertson* 11.51 CIN
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 14.83 PHI
1965-66 NBA Jerry West* 14.41 LAL
1964-65 NBA Jerry West* 14.82 LAL
1963-64 NBA Oscar Robertson* 16.20 CIN
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 15.96 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 17.11 PHW
1960-61 NBA Oscar Robertson* 13.03 CIN
1959-60 NBA Cliff Hagan* 9.27 STL
1958-59 NBA Kenny Sears 11.88 NYK
1957-58 NBA George Yardley* 10.16 DET
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.59 PHW
1955-56 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.22 PHW
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.46 PHW
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.35 PHW
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.00 PHW
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 14.78 PHW


MJ led in Offensive Win Shares 8x and Kareem 6x and Neil Johnson 5x and Wilt 4x. The most for any player




PER (Player Efficiency Rating)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.73



http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... early.html

2010-11 NBA LeBron James 27.27 MIA
2009-10 NBA LeBron James 31.10
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 31.67
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 29.14
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 27.59
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 28.06
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett 28.20
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 29.44
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 30.27
2001-02 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.68
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.23
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.65
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.55
1997-98 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 28.79
1996-97 NBA Karl Malone 28.90
1995-96 NBA David Robinson* 29.41
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 29.13
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 30.66
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.70
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 27.75
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.63
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.19
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.14
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.71
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.78
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 25.61
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 26.54
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 24.64
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 25.12
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 26.77
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.48
1979-80 NBA Julius Erving* 25.36
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.47
1977-78 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.22
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.80
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.21
1974-75 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 26.36
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 24.65
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.45
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.94
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.95
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 24.64
1968-69 NBA Jerry West* 22.32
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 24.71
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 26.51
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.26
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.62
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.64
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.84
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.76
1960-61 NBA Elgin Baylor* 28.24
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.04
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 28.19
1957-58 NBA Bob Pettit* 26.26
1956-57 NBA Bob Pettit* 28.23
1955-56 NBA Bob Pettit* 27.34
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 25.50
1953-54 NBA George Mikan* 28.54
1952-53 NBA George Mikan* 28.39
1951-52 NBA George Mikan* 26.26

Kareem led in PER 9x and Wilt 8x and MJ 7x (Tied in 1996 with D.Robinson so it could be said 8x) The most for any player




http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... eer_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18



http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... rly_p.html

2011 NBA Chris Paul 28.89
2010 NBA Dwyane Wade 29.43
2009 NBA LeBron James 37.39
2008 NBA Chris Paul 30.70
2007 NBA Amare Stoudemire 29.57
2006 NBA Tim Duncan 30.39
2005 NBA Yao Ming 28.99
2004 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 27.50
2003 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.61
2002 NBA Tim Duncan 31.80
2001 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 28.67
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.45
1999 NBA Grant Hill 29.29
1998 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 31.00
1997 NBA Anfernee Hardaway 29.88
1996 NBA David Robinson* 29.10
1995 NBA Kevin Johnson 27.36
1994 NBA Charles Barkley* 27.85
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.06
1992 NBA Michael Jordan* 27.24
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.04
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.63
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.90
1988 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.95
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 28.46
1986 NBA Spud Webb 25.74
1985 NBA Michael Jordan* 24.72
1984 NBA Bernard King 27.60
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 25.72
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 22.46
1981 NBA Marques Johnson 27.65
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.91
1979 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 26.54
1978 NBA George Gervin* 29.44
1977 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35
1976 NBA Bob Lanier* 25.27
1975 NBA Bob McAdoo* 24.25
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.31
1973 NBA Jerry West* 22.67
1972 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.45
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.26
1970 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.39
1969 NBA Jerry West* 25.20
1968 NBA Jerry West* 25.13
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 25.34
1966 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 25.97
1965 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 27.09
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.22
1963 NBA Bob Pettit* 26.04
1962 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 29.62
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 28.55
1960 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 27.01
1959 NBA Cliff Hagan* 26.19
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 27.46
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 25.03
1956 NBA George Yardley* 25.36
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 24.31
1954 NBA George Mikan* 33.58
1953 NBA George Mikan* 26.25
1952 NBA George Mikan* 27.61

Kareem led in Playoff PER 7x and MJ 6x (also led in it in 1986 with a 30 PER, so really 7x) and Wilt 6x. The most for any player





http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... early.html

2010-11 NBA LeBron James 0.2442 MIA
2009-10 NBA LeBron James 0.2987 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 0.3183 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 0.2840 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2780 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2753 DAL
2004-05 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2479 DAL
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 0.2723 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 0.2617 ORL
2001-02 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2615 LAL
2000-01 NBA David Robinson* 0.2457 SAS
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2830 LAL
1998-99 NBA David Robinson* 0.2607 SAS
1997-98 NBA David Robinson* 0.2691 SAS
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2829 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3174 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 0.2727 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 0.2960 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2698 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2743 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3211 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2851 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2920 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3077 CHI
1986-87 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2627 LAL
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2438 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2380 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 0.2350 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 0.2480 PHI
1981-82 NBA Julius Erving* 0.2294 PHI
1980-81 NBA Julius Erving* 0.2311 PHI
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2266 LAL
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2186 LAL
1977-78 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2571 LAL
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2835 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2416 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 0.2416 BUF
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2495 MIL
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3225 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3399 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3256 MIL
1969-70 NBA Walt Frazier* 0.2361 NYK
1968-69 NBA Willis Reed* 0.2268 NYK
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2551 PHI
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2851 PHI
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2751 PHI
1964-65 NBA Jerry West* 0.2611 LAL
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.3251 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2641 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2857 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2395 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2445 PHW
1958-59 NBA Kenny Sears 0.2562 NYK
1957-58 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.2340 BOS
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 0.2595 PHW
1955-56 NBA Larry Foust 0.2639 FTW
1954-55 NBA Larry Foust 0.2823 FTW
1953-54 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2668 SYR
1952-53 NBA George Mikan* 0.2640 MNL
1951-52 NBA Al Cervi* 0.2967 SYR


Kareem led in WS Per 48 Minutes 9x and MJ 8x and Wilt 8x, the most for any player



http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2505
2. David Robinson* 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2480
4. Neil Johnston* 0.2413
5. Chris Paul 0.2328
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2284
7. LeBron James 0.2266
8. Magic Johnson* 0.2249
9. Charles Barkley* 0.2163
10. Tim Duncan 0.2162



http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... rly_p.html

2011 NBA Chris Paul 0.2424 NOH
2010 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2912 DAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 0.3994 CLE
2008 NBA Chris Paul 0.2887 NOH
2007 NBA Amare Stoudemire 0.2690 PHO
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2634 DAL
2005 NBA Paul Pierce 0.3009 BOS
2004 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2871 DAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 0.2792 SAS
2002 NBA Jamaal Magloire 0.2498 CHH
2001 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2602 LAL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2241 LAL
1999 NBA Marcus Camby 0.2800 NYK
1998 NBA Steve Smith 0.2688 ATL
1997 NBA Anfernee Hardaway 0.2395 ORL
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3064 CHI
1995 NBA Shawn Kemp 0.2597 SEA
1994 NBA Detlef Schrempf 0.2599 SEA
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2700 CHI
1992 NBA Karl Malone* 0.2198 UTA
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3325 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2837 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2703 CHI
1988 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 0.3855 HOU
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2650 LAL
1986 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2666 LAL
1985 NBA Sidney Moncrief 0.2169 MIL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2356 BOS
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 0.2599 PHI
1982 NBA Kevin McHale* 0.2568 BOS
1981 NBA Marques Johnson 0.2600 MIL
1980 NBA Cedric Maxwell 0.2555 BOS
1979 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2218 LAL
1978 NBA Steve Mix 0.3112 PHI
1977 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3324 LAL
1976 NBA Bob Lanier* 0.2133 DET
1975 NBA Don Nelson 0.2094 BOS
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2971 MIL
1973 NBA Oscar Robertson* 0.2362 MIL
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 0.2271 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2711 MIL
1970 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2859 MIL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 0.2735 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 0.2779 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2529 PHI
1966 NBA Jerry West* 0.2374 LAL
1965 NBA Bill Russell* 0.2857 BOS
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.3228 SFW
1963 NBA Bob Pettit* 0.2436 STL
1962 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2596 PHW
1961 NBA Bill Sharman* 0.2571 BOS
1960 NBA Elgin Baylor* 0.2646 MNL
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.3225 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 0.3124 STL
1957 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.2904 BOS
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 0.2618 PHW
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2421 SYR
1954 NBA George Mikan* 0.3912 MNL
1953 NBA George Mikan* 0.2045 MNL
1952 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2838 SYR

MJ and Kareem both led in WS per 48 Minutes in the playoffs 5x, the most for any Player.






http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... eer_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553
2. George Mikan* 0.2541
3. LeBron James 0.2218
4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078
5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2067
6. Jerry West* 0.2031
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998
8. David Robinson* 0.1992
9. Tim Duncan 0.1991



http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8535


Bill Reynolds Says:

MJ had the highest WS/48 for two decades -- the 80s and the 90s. His figure for the 90s (.280) is the highest for any player/decade ever, and his figure for the 80s (.262) is the third highest, just behind Kareem's .266 for the 70s.

What a player!

Code: Select all

The Nineties (1990-99):

Rk   Player           From   To   Tm   G   MP   PER   ORtg   USG%   DRtg   OWS   DWS   WS   WS/48 ?
3   Michael Jordan   1990   1998   CHI   585   22445   28.7   121   33.3   102   92.8   38.3   131.1   0.280
2   David Robinson   1990   1999   SAS   685   25364   27.7   117   27.9   96   78.5   59.3   137.8   0.261
1   Karl Malone   1990   1999   UTA   785   30005   26.0   117   30.4   102   95.9   51.0   146.9   0.235


Code: Select all

The Eighties (1980-89):

Rk   Player           From   To   Tm   G   MP   PER   ORtg   USG%   DRtg   OWS   DWS   WS   WS/48 ?
14   Michael Jordan   1985   1989   CHI   345   13442   29.6   120   33.8   104   53.0   20.4   73.4   0.262
2   Magic Johnson   1980   1989   LAL   716   26417   23.8   120   21.9   104   84.1   36.2   120.3   0.219
1   Larry Bird   1980   1989   BOS   717   27560   24.1   116   26.7   101   75.4   48.8   124.2   0.216
19   Charles Barkley   1985   1989   PHI   389   14297   24.4   120   23.6   105   43.9   19.3   63.1   0.21
[code]


[code]
The Seventies (1970-79):

Rk   Player           From   To   Tm   G   MP   PER   TS%   eFG%   OWS   DWS   WS   WS/48 ?
1   Kareem       1970   1979   TOT   773   31771   26.9   0.583   0.551   115.8   60.2   176.0   0.266
21   Jerry West   1970   1974   LAL   320   12351   23.6   0.554   0.484   38.8   16.3   55.0   0.214
11   Chet Walker   1970   1975   CHI   474   15809   19.6   0.559   0.483   46.8   20.2   67.0   0.204
[/code]


[code]
The Sixties (1960-69):

Rk   Player           From   To   Tm   G   MP   PER   TS%   eFG%   OWS   DWS   WS   WS/48 ?
1   Wilt         1960   1969   TOT   787   36713   28.1   0.539   0.530   125.2   73.1   198.3   0.259
2   Oscar Robertson   1961   1969   CIN   683   30223   25.3   0.571   0.487   123.1   19.8   142.8   0.227
4   Jerry West   1961   1969   LAL   612   24220   22.6   0.548   0.469   85.9   21.7   107.5   0.213
10   Bob Pettit   1960   1965   STL   435   17345   24.2   0.520   0.447   49.4   24.8   74.1   0.205
3   Bill Russell   1960   1969   BOS   776   33412   18.3   0.471   0.439   19.9   113.1   133.1   0.191
[/code]


[code]
The Fifties (1952-59):

Rk   Player           From   To   Tm   G   MP   PER   TS%   eFG%   OWS   DWS   WS   WS/48 ?
13   George Mikan   1952   1956   MNL   243   8350   26.9   0.467   0.389   21.0   22.2   43.2   0.249
2   Neil Johnston   1952   1959   PHW   516   18298   24.7   0.534   0.444   73.9   18.1   92.0   0.241
8   Bob Pettit   1955   1959   TOT   357   13345   26.9   0.499   0.421   42.4   19.5   61.9   0.223
1   Dolph Schayes   1952   1959   SYR   566   20784   23.7   0.494   0.382   57.8   37.4   95.2   0.220


[rrravenred]

Ugh. Less infodump please JB. Links are better.

[Dipper 13]

No - because the point is *relative to era.* Russell wasn't a bad offensive player -- he was probably above average. His scoring is weaker than his overall impact there (rebounding, passing), and when you look at his offense relative to the times, before moving more to the high post, that number isn't as ugly as you are making it out to be.

Conversely, his defensive dominance isn't based on "held opponent to 42% eFG!" It's that while other were holding people to 42%, he was holding them to 30% (made up numbers). His team's defense, relative to everyone else in the league, was miles ahead.

Baltimore Afro-American - Jan 12, 1963

[GreenHat]

Players simply weren't as big and tall back then, so both Russ & Wilt had a HUGE advantage that cannot be ignored(Wilt due to his size, Russ due to his athleticism). For much of his career, Russ went against guys in the 6'7'6'9 range.

You been corrected on this misstatement before but you keep repeating it. Without doing the research again, the last time you said this DrMJ showed you a list of all the centers in the league in both the year you were referring to historically and the current one and showed that, the listed heights were almost identical . . . and that's with the 60s centers being measured in socks while the 00s centers were in shoes so actually the 60s players averaged a good inch taller.

That's because the 60s were a center oriented era so it was more important to have the big post defender while today there is more a focus on wing/slasher scoring and many more bigs who play like wings with dribbling and outside shooting since the rules were changed several times to keep the Russells and Wilts from dominating the game as much. You might be right to say today's centers are quicker or more athletic (though Russell was a freak in those respects much more than in height where he was pretty average) but you are dead wrong about the height issue . . . again.

Its not just about height though. All the undersized centers today are way longer than the undersized centers of back then and for the most part thicker.

That extends throughout all the other positions too.

Reading something to answer another post I ran into this:

"First it was Easy Ed Macauley, a 6-foot-8, 190-pound center who was not intimidating"

Give him an inch or two in height for the shoes and some pounds for the college weight. He's still undersized for a center and doesn't have the length to make up for it. And he was good enough back then to get traded for Russell.

[Sedale Threatt]

Also, another thing that I'd decry in this discussion is the "narrative" that Jordan was somehow "willing a team to greatness by himself" while Russell was the lucky one to have a great supporting cast. Russell may have been coached by Aurbach, but Jordan was coached by the man to break Aurbach's championships record. Russell did play with guys that made the Hall of Fame, but relative to his time his cast wasn't any more super-powered than Jordan's was with respect to his time. In the 90s, besides Chicago, how many other teams sported a very legitimate MVP candidate as the 2nd option on the team? While also sporting a third borderline-All Star caliber player at big forward and a strong cast of role players that, among them, would also get some All Star attention? To my knowledge, the answer is pretty close to zero. The mid-90s Bulls showed themselves capable of 55 wins while Jordan was playing baseball.

Now, does any of that diminish what Jordan did? OF COURSE NOT! If you're judging based on a player's individual impact, or at least trying to, then it doesn't matter how good their teammates were or weren't. That might make a difference in how many rings a player gets (which is why rings shouldn't be a stand-alone argument), but it doesn't make a difference in how good the player plays or in their impact. Which is the lion share of what I'm trying to vote on.

But I bring it up because, otherwise, I think folks do talk themselves into the narrative that Jordan was somehow doing more with less than Russell was. Yeah, Russell's teams had more scoring on them...but MJ's teammates were better defensively. In the end, a supporting cast isn't defined solely by their scoring average. There's more than one way to be valuable to a team. And Jordan's cast allowed him to focus on what he was best at, what he was needed for at any given time just as much as Russell's allowed him to play to his own strengths.

Absolutely no question -- Jordan's championship teams were excellent.

Not the most glamorous, but more than enough. He always had two top-flight defenders with him, with Pippen and Grant/Rodman, not to mention very solid players like Cartwright and Harper. The most underrated quality was how well-constructed those teams were. They complemented him extremely well.

I don't know if I look at Jordan as doing any more or less than Russell.

I'd just argue that:

A. It's become trendy to diminish Russell's supporting casts for being a bunch of inefficient chuckers, when that was pretty much the era, in order to give him ALL of the credit for Boston's success.

B. It's patently unfair to hold Jordan's lack of early success against him compared to Russell, when the situations were totally and completely different.

[Sedale Threatt]

Ugh. Less infodump please JB. Links are better.

That's his go-to post. Quit hating.

[JordansBulls]

How did MJ not dominate two areas? Obviously scoring was one and defense was the other and if you want clutchness as a 3rd area. He actually made key plays down the stretch in pivotal games as well. Russell isn't even the all time rpg average leader.
On another note, remember Russell during his run for 8 titles won 16 series during those years and overall 25 series in the years he won titles while MJ in his runs had to win 4 series a year for 24 series. Overall Russell won 27 playoff series, while Jordan won 30 playoff series all as the best player on the team.
. . .
On your other point, the reason scoring is more important is because it is the only thing that guarantees that you win. If a team has the most rebounds in a game or blocks, free throws, you may not win, but if you have the most total points in a game it is a gurantee you would win the game.

I love you JB, you are so passionate about your idol and yet . . .

Jordan was a terrific defender but nowhere near Russell’s impact in that area. Jordan’s defense is on the level of Russell’s passing, great but not why he’s a GOAT candidate.

Russell was incredibly clutch also. It’s hard not to be with the win records of Jordan and Russell; just Russell did it with clutch rebounding and defense generally.

And while Wilt is the all time rpg leader, let’s look at those numbers. Wilt stands at 22.89, Russell at 22.45 in about 3-4 less minutes a game (their per 36 numbers are 18reb and 19.1reb respectively – Rodman stands at 14.3). Even more telling, look at the rpg of #3, Bob Pettit, with 16.22rpg. For MJ to dominate the 3rd greatest scorer the way Russell dominates the 3rd greatest rebounder, he’d have had to average 38ppg instead of 30! The difference between Russell and #3 is the difference between MJ and the #32 scorer, Amare. That’s dominance! And remember that MJ wouldn’t be #1 on the scoring charts if Wilt hadn’t been convinced to copy Russell as a lower scoring passing and defensive hub – if scoring was that much more valuable, how come a HOF coach changed this and how come it led to Wilt’s only two titles?

And while Jordan won 30 series to Russell's 27, he lost 7 series to Russell only losing 2 (one of which Russell was injured). That is a win % of .810 (great) v. 93% (incredible!) and Russell didn't get to play as many mediocre 1st round opponents so this win% differential could be even greater.

Finally, if you stop the other guy from scoring as many points as you do, you win. Period. It doesn't matter how many points you score; so Russell's defense is more valuable than MJ's offense by that rather silly standard. The book Wages of Win finds there are 4 major factors that correlate most strongly to winning and none of those 4 dominates the others. They are (a) offensive efficiency -- this is clearly Jordan's territory both as a very efficient scorer and as a guy who can create shots when the clock is running out. (b) defensive efficiency -- this is clearly Russell's territory as no one has had the consistent defensive impact he had and Jordan's defensive impact isn't close. (c) rebounding differential -- again, Russell dominates. Like defense, this is a reason big men are more valuable than little ones, positional impact being near equal. (d) turnover efficiency -- both were good passers, both created turnovers. I'd guess this favors Russell for his ability to block shots to his teammates and relatively superior passing but not by the same margins. So, it seems that impact on winning isn't just scoring, scoring, scoring or George Gervin, Allen Iverson,and Dominque Wilkins would have multiple rings.

Russell was a great defender, but let's remember Wilt averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on him. Can you really say Russell stopped the man from scoring? The greatest defender in the modern era is Hakeem
and no one ever came close to doing that on him.
Also MJ led in PPG 10x, the most ever and Wilt was next with 7.
Russell led in RPG 5x, the most ever was 11x by Wilt.

So the difference in MJ leading in scoring (GOAT Scorer) to the next is greater than Russell's because Russell actually led in half as many times in RPG as Wilt did.

Now look at the overall production of teammates.

1956-1957 rookie year 1st Title:
Name WS in order (also Russell is 4th in WS/48)

Sharman 10.4
Cousy 8.8
Heinsohn 7.1
Russell 6.2

Interesting that fellow newcomer Heinsohn had a more valuable year. Can't imagine anyone would claim that Russell won the title (his first) all by himself.
1957-1958 No title, but Russell is #1 in WS
11.3, 10.0, 8.7, 6.0, 5.4 - 5 major contributors, the famous (team over individual player proved it this year).

But hold on a minute! Russell is behind Ramsey in WS/48. 12% behind Ramsey. What do you know about that..... So every minute they were on the floor Ramsey had more value then Russell by 12%.

1958-1959 2nd Title, Russell is first in WS, but there are six major contributors: 12.9, 8.7, 7.6, 6.5, 5.9, 5.3

1959-1960 3rd Title, Russell is first in WS, but 5 other major guys: 13.8, 7.9, 7.8, 7.7, 5.9, 5.3
By WS/48 Russell was only 6.2% ahead of Sharman.
1960-1961 4th Title Russell has 1st place in WS, but viola!! Sam Jones has a better WS/48.

1962-1963 6th Title Russell 1st in WS, but again 2nd in WS behind Jones.

1965-1966 9th Title Russell is MASHED (by 27.4%) in WS/48 by Sam Jones, and topped also by Larry Siegfried (the immortal).

1966-1967 No Title; Russell is mashed in WS/48 by hard nosed Bailey Howell, and almost equaled in WS by BH as well. This is the year I started to watch them a lot. The 76'ers were much better that year.

1967-1968 10th Title; Russell 2nd in WS behind Howell, and 4th on the 12 man roster in WS/48, and only a few percentage points out of 7th.

1968-1969 11th Title; Russell again 2nd in WS and 4th in WS/48


His Teammate John Havlicek made 5 first team all nba while Russell only made 1. His teammate John Havlicek made 4 all nba first teams while Russell only made 3.

MJ always led the Bulls in WS, PER and WS/PER 48 minutes every year in Chicago when he was there for the season.


1. When Russell went to the Celtics they were a team that had been in the playoffs 6 years in a row and that was in the 2nd round or greater each time.
2. When Russell went to the Celtics, he was playing with the player that won league mvp that year in Cousy.
So while I agree that Russell help turn guys into HOF, he sure in hell didn't turn Cousy into one and he sure as hell didn't inherit a lottery team when he first went there.
Also in 1969
He had 2 teammates that were top 5 in Win Shares in the playoffs and he had 3 teammates that had a higher Win Share than he did in the playoffs and those same two teammates had a higher PER in the playoffs than Russell as well.

3. John Havlicek*-BOS 2.8
4. Willis Reed*-NYK 2.2
5. Don Nelson-BOS 1.8

Don Nelson this season simply had better overall numbers statistically than Russell did.

Also I don't see how it would hurt MJ's legacy if the Bulls got to the finals considering how much did it hurt Kareem's legacy that Magic got to the finals without him and was 2nd in MVP voting or that Magic won back to back MVP's? Or how did it hurt Russell's legacy that HONDO won 2 titles after Russell left as well?
Truth be told it didn't. Also you are using hypotheticals because the Bulls didn't win in 1994. Whereas those other things actually happened.

Bob Cousy was MVP of the league in 1957 when the Celtics won there first title and thus the best player in it. Afterwards you can say Russell was, but not that year. It is like trying to give the credit to Magic when LA won in 1980 when Kareem was the MVP of the league. If you notice it wasn't until Magic came that LA won immediately, but can you give Magic the credit for winning with LA in 1980 or is it Kareem? The same applies in 1957 with Cousy and Russell.

Imagine MJ going to Detroit in 1985 with Isiah winning league MVP and MJ missed 1/3 of the season and let's say Sampson was a rookie that year and won ROY and then the Pistons win a bunch of titles, Sampson gets hurt like he did and Isiah retires and then Grant Hill comes along and MJ still wins. This is what happened with Russell essentially just on a far greater scale.