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Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion thread 

Post#161 » by inonba » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:00 pm

brownbobcat wrote:The prisoner's dilemma doesn't really have anything to do with cheating. It's a construct whereby both players would benefit if they cooperated. The payoff system is such that you will always stand to benefit more by not cooperating, though, and this results in both players not cooperating and experiencing the worst outcome.

= Incentive to cheat, people will cheat. Ask an economic professor, and that's the way he/she would explain it. Not sure if you actually studied economics before or just looked up the definition.

brownbobcat wrote:In the PD, a player suffers if he cooperates and the other doesn't. In the NBA, a GM definitely benefits if he "cooperates" (by not signing stupid contracts), while others hand out big deals. I think the current system results in SOME players being overpaid drastically, but I don't think they're overpaid as a collective group. At least, not to the extent that the problem couldn't be fixed by owners simply losing money and forcing themselves to spend less. Most contracts are eventually moveable. Arenas, Rashard, Vince, Hedo, CWebb, KG, LaFrentz, Baron Davis, and so on.


First off, KG shouldn't be on the list. Second, the cost of getting rid of Baron Davis and Raef LaFrentz was Kyrie Irving and Brandon Roy. Rashard was traded for Gilbert, and so on. The problems aren't really self correcting, as they are just moved from one place to another. Self correcting would imply there was something that can be done to their contracts to reflect their market worth after the fact. I guess is where we would differ in our opinions. You think some are overpaid, I think most and I say most because of bidding war between owners chasing a small number of quality free agents. This is also where I would argue speculation also play a big part of why salaries are inflated. Too many players/agent demand base on potential and not on actual performace.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion thread 

Post#162 » by Mr.Raptorsingh » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:19 pm

According to Ken Berger's twitter account, Owners have informed the players that there will be a lockout, rather than a CBA extension.

Ken Berger
BREAKING: Owners have informed players they are locking out. #NBA #lockout


And so it begins..
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion thread 

Post#163 » by Reignman » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:42 pm

yeah, ESPN reporting that the lockout has officially started.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion thread 

Post#164 » by DG88 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:46 pm

Lockout it's happening boys
daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Fisher; owners informed players they have votes for lockout, will lock them out at midnight.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion thread 

Post#165 » by bboyskinnylegs » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm

so much for any last second moves from us before a work stoppage.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion thread 

Post#166 » by flipmode18 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:49 pm

well thats depressing
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion thread 

Post#167 » by brownbobcat » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:50 pm

inonba wrote:= Incentive to cheat, people will cheat. Ask an economic professor, and that's the way he/she would explain it. Not sure if you actually studied economics before or just looked up the definition.

Dude, while I'm no professor, I do have a degree in economics - the prisoner's dilemma is about strategy sets and optimizing payoffs. Game theory, in this instance and context, is not about cheating. How is it about cheating when you aren't breaking any rules or don't have any unfair advantages?

inonba wrote:First off, KG shouldn't be on the list. Second, the cost of getting rid of Baron Davis and Raef LaFrentz was Kyrie Irving and Brandon Roy. Rashard was traded for Gilbert, and so on. The problems aren't really self correcting, as they are just moved from one place to another. Self correcting would imply there was something that can be done to their contracts to reflect their market worth after the fact. I guess is where we would differ in our opinions. You think some are overpaid, I think most and I say most because of bidding war between owners chasing a small number of quality free agents. This is also where I would argue speculation also play a big part of why salaries are inflated. Too many players/agent demand base on potential and not on actual performace.

KG is on the list because of his massive contract, which was tradeable despite its size. The point is that contracts can and have been moved. At the time of those trades, it wasn't known with certainty that those picks would turn out to be Irving and Roy. LaFrentz and his huge contract have been traded many times, and it'd be more accurate to say he was moved for Randy Foye, not Roy. Self correction does not mean that you can revise the contract value, any more than you can go back in time and pay less for a house that saw its value crash in 2008. It merely means GMs should learn from their mistakes and not hand out max value contracts to guys like Tim Thomas or Tom Gugliotta - which we have seen in small measures.

Just because there are a small number of quality free agents does not necessarily imply everyone is overpaid as a whole. That doesn't make it different than any other kind of market, just because supply is inelastic. GMs chase a small number of players because only a few guys in this league can make a significant difference on the court. Again, this is a business and there is a difference between investment and speculation. If you repeatedly get burned by overpaying, you should eventually learn your lesson unless you're Isiah Thomas.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#168 » by DG88 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:51 pm

NEW YORK (AP) -- NBA players are locked out, possibly jeopardizing next season.
Union chief Billy Hunter said Thursday afternoon that owners had locked out the players after failing to reach a new collective bargaining agreement.

With this latest action, two of four major professional sports in the United States are locked out. The NFL locked out its players in March, and the two sides have been in discussions this week, trying to work toward a new deal.
Despite a three-hour meeting Thursday, the NBA and its players could not close the enormous gap that remained in their positions. The CBA was due to expire at midnight.

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/06/30/labo ... ndex.html#
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#169 » by Mr.Raptorsingh » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:52 pm

And here I was eagerly awaiting Free Agency....
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion thread 

Post#170 » by Parataxis » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:52 pm

inonba wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:The prisoner's dilemma doesn't really have anything to do with cheating. It's a construct whereby both players would benefit if they cooperated. The payoff system is such that you will always stand to benefit more by not cooperating, though, and this results in both players not cooperating and experiencing the worst outcome.

= Incentive to cheat, people will cheat. Ask an economic professor, and that's the way he/she would explain it. Not sure if you actually studied economics before or just looked up the definition.


You're confusing Game Theory (the general economic theory aka Rational Choice Theory) with the Prisoner's Dilemma (a specific game within Game Theory).
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#171 » by gojoorange » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:52 pm

Hopefully some good will come out of this lockout that will make the league more competitive.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#172 » by Gold Chain » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:59 pm

Aw funk.

Well, I don't watch sports in the summer anyways, so I suppose it might be a year without any leagues. :(
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#173 » by Mr.Raptorsingh » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:00 pm

Watching Stern's Press Conf. right now...

Dude is despondent, sounds disappointed.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#174 » by Mr.Raptorsingh » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:03 pm

Adam Silver knows his sh*t lol
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#175 » by DG88 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:16 pm

Stern doesn't look happy right now. I think he's pissed at the players
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#176 » by Mr.Raptorsingh » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:18 pm

DG88 wrote:Stern doesn't look happy right now. I think he's pissed at the players


Yup. I think he's looking for blood now, so to speak.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#177 » by DG88 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:22 pm

Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:
DG88 wrote:Stern doesn't look happy right now. I think he's pissed at the players


Yup. I think he's looking for blood now, so to speak.

It's crazy to think that over a decade ago the average salary for players wasn't even in the millions. Now on average most make 5 million. After awhile owners can only supply so much money. The players are going to have to make some serious cuts to the amount of money they can make. Especially in this economy where the US is getting closer to being bankrupt.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#178 » by Parthenon » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:28 pm

What happens to the TPE now that the lockout is underway?
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#179 » by jsmith » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:31 pm

I completely see the owner's point of view. From a pure cost of living standpoint, the numbers are rediculous.

Year Cap Avg Salary
1984-85 $3.6 million $330,000

2003-04 $43.84 million $4,917,000

for an increase of:
1406%

Total inflation over the period from January 1984 to January 2005 is 87.14%
(http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Infl ... ulator.asp)

Therefor the adjusted salaries based on inflation and cost of living increases would be:
$617,562.00

And that means the salaries are overinflated by 705%.

I mean, that is a little bit ridiculous. I know the owners make tonnes of money (some of them), but no business is going to survive with raises in that range. It is not viable in my opinion.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#180 » by bboyskinnylegs » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:31 pm

Parthenon wrote:What happens to the TPE now that the lockout is underway?

we don't know... it will likely expire, unless if Cleveland is successful in obtaining an extension until x number of days into free agency

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