ImageImageImageImageImage

Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

Moderators: Morris_Shatford, 7 Footer, DG88, niQ, Duffman100, tsherkin, Reeko, lebron stopper, HiJiNX

User avatar
Relentless88
RealGM
Posts: 11,794
And1: 101
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
       

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#181 » by Relentless88 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:37 pm

DG88 wrote:
Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:
DG88 wrote:Stern doesn't look happy right now. I think he's pissed at the players


Yup. I think he's looking for blood now, so to speak.

It's crazy to think that over a decade ago the average salary for players wasn't even in the millions. Now on average most make 5 million. After awhile owners can only supply so much money. The players are going to have to make some serious cuts to the amount of money they can make. Especially in this economy where the US is getting closer to being bankrupt.

Yep. I'm with the owners on this. The players are overpaid. You can't have someone like Solomon Alabi making 4 times the amount of a doctor while supplying 58 minutes of "work".

Yes I know the players generate most the revenue but they definitely need to take serious cuts.
brownbobcat
Head Coach
Posts: 6,838
And1: 3,790
Joined: Jun 09, 2006

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#182 » by brownbobcat » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:37 pm

jsmith wrote:I completely see the owner's point of view. From a pure cost of living standpoint, the numbers are rediculous.

Year Cap Avg Salary
1984-85 $3.6 million $330,000

2003-04 $43.84 million $4,917,000

for an increase of:
1406%

Total inflation over the period from January 1984 to January 2005 is 87.14%
(http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Infl ... ulator.asp)

Therefor the adjusted salaries based on inflation and cost of living increases would be:
$617,562.00

And that means the salaries are overinflated by 705%.

I mean, that is a little bit ridiculous. I know the owners make tonnes of money (some of them), but no business is going to survive with raises in that range. It is not viable in my opinion.

OK, and where's the comparison of revenue from 1985 to present?
jsmith
Senior
Posts: 539
And1: 9
Joined: Apr 07, 2008

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#183 » by jsmith » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:42 pm

Couldn't find the numbers for present, but I would assume they would be worse considering the cap goes up to $58.04 million from about 44 in 6 years.
HomieOmey
Head Coach
Posts: 6,063
And1: 563
Joined: Jun 29, 2009
Location: TO
Contact:

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#184 » by HomieOmey » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:47 pm

So is it just Val who can play in Europe this season or is Kanter and Biyombo fair game to play in Europe as well? My guess is even if Kanter could, the Jazz would hold out to play whatever games are left to play this season.
Image
TurboZ
Yeezus_
RealGM
Posts: 11,028
And1: 14,092
Joined: Feb 18, 2009
Location: Toronto
     

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#185 » by Yeezus_ » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:59 pm

Don't worry guys Watch the Throne drops Monday
Yeezy SZN approaching
User avatar
Major Giz
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,987
And1: 1,308
Joined: May 18, 2006
Location: @pearljamdad

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#186 » by Major Giz » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:02 pm

Bonner, the NHL deal is the worst in history. NHL players aren't complaining while making their millions. IF THEY DESERVE IT, THEY GET PAID.

Too many scrubs making too much. You could probably name 20 without blinking an eye.
Image
dagger
RealGM
Posts: 41,369
And1: 14,414
Joined: Aug 19, 2002
         

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#187 » by dagger » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:03 pm

Stern supposedly said at the press conference that the league owners have agreed to increase revenue sharing something like threefold from $60 million, presumably to something around $180 million.
2019 will never be forgotten because FLAGS FLY FOREVER
DG88
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 39,161
And1: 29,970
Joined: Jul 26, 2008
Location: You don't know my location but I know yours
     

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#188 » by DG88 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:04 pm

Ken Berger's proposal of a new CBA
NEW YORK -- As the NBA heads into a long, dark summer and beyond with the expiration of the collective bargaining agreement, there appears to be only one way to bridge the gap between players and owners:

Pain. Lots of it.

We could come up with brilliant, innovative ways to fix the broken system that has the NBA willing to waste one of the high points it has experienced in the past two decades, and it would be pointless. The players are clinging too stubbornly to the status quo, while owners are determined not to budge until they solve all their problems with massive salary concessions from the players. Translation: See you in September. Or November. Or maybe even January.


Derek Fisher and Billy Hunter can make concessions in revenue sharing to gain leverage in later negotiations. (AP) The bad thing for the owners and players is that they've run across someone just as stubborn as they are.
That would be me, the guy forging ahead with the Berger Plan -- a flawed, imperfect, but practical approach to solving the NBA's labor dispute in ways that would be better for both sides than a lengthy lockout.

More in link
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/1527 ... a_txt_0001
Image
dagger
RealGM
Posts: 41,369
And1: 14,414
Joined: Aug 19, 2002
         

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#189 » by dagger » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:04 pm

Major Giz wrote:Bonner, the NHL deal is the worst in history. NHL players aren't complaining while making their millions. IF THEY DESERVE IT, THEY GET PAID.

Too many scrubs making too much. You could probably name 20 without blinking an eye.


NHL deal doesn't seem to bad to me. The league's revenues have been growing steadily, the cap has risen every year since the lockout. Part of that is the Canadian dollar, but part of it is rising television revenues, too.
2019 will never be forgotten because FLAGS FLY FOREVER
User avatar
LieCheatSteal
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,891
And1: 418
Joined: Nov 19, 2005
Location: Philadelphia via Toronto

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#190 » by LieCheatSteal » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:14 pm

How is the NHL deal bad?

Pre-deal, franchises couldn't sustain the major contract increases. Now, franchises are more stable and are moving back to cities that couldn't withstand major contract increases ie Winnipeg. Pre-deal, there were creations of "super" teams with loads of money to outbid everyone for crappy, over the hill free agents ie Toronto and New York Rangers. Now, teams like Toronto and the Rangers are being protected from themselves and smaller market teams with cap space can get in on the free agent bidding. There's more parity in the league now and hockey has grown a lot on a US level, more than it has for a while now, especially on Versus, which feature hockey as amongst its main attractions, unlike ESPN. I also don't see the players complaining. They still sign whopping contracts (albeit ridiculously long ones).

So, a deal is bad only it didn't save a league. It did.
Two years from being two years away.
BLKMASS
Banned User
Posts: 977
And1: 124
Joined: Mar 13, 2011

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#191 » by BLKMASS » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:28 pm

Relentless88 wrote:Yep. I'm with the owners on this. The players are overpaid. You can't have someone like Solomon Alabi making 4 times the amount of a doctor while supplying 58 minutes of "work".

Yes I know the players generate most the revenue but they definitely need to take serious cuts.



The player salaries are too high... undeniably. This is some ways ruins the game as well because this jackass players (LeBitch) start to believe they're a living God with all this cash... Many of the time it may result in apathetic game play from talented players. "Who gives a **** bout winning bball games when I'm a millionaire"
But should much of the money that the players generate go to the fatass owners? They're even more undeserving.
bstein14
RealGM
Posts: 32,928
And1: 9,747
Joined: Jun 22, 2001

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#192 » by bstein14 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:32 pm

What I really hate about this is their average salary is $5 million per player... That's just nuts.

And really most teams have at least 2-3 minimum salary projects making less than $1 million per year.

The Kings are in a world of hurt and in need of a move and the Hornets are also in financial trouble and owned by the league.... if they axed those 2 teams and limited it to 13 players per team for the remaining 28 teams we'd be just fine. Go back to 28 teams just like it was before the last two expansion franchises... getting out of two bad markets. And saving the travel expenses of 2 extra players and their salaries will also save every team about $2+ million a year.

Instead of having 450 player to pay the 28 owners would have 364 players to pay and a little extra national TV revenue to all the teams too.
User avatar
James_Raptors
RealGM
Posts: 22,700
And1: 12,043
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
Location: Born in Toronto,living in NEWFOUNDLAND baby!
         

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#193 » by James_Raptors » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:37 pm

The NHL deal is bad because it forces teams to spend (it has a floor) who simply cannot make a profit doing so. Honestly, their system is flawed and/or there are teams who cannot support NHL hockey in their current market. Something needs to give. Last I heard, at least 9 NHL owners were looking to sell and get the hell out as quickly as possible. It's difficult to convince a new owner to come in and take on all that potential debt. Those puzzle pieces simply don't match up properly.
08-14-'21:
(re: Scottie Barnes)
-Top 3 Raptors of all-time, 5+ ASG, Min 1 All-NBA 1st /2nd,Min 3 All-Def 1st or 2nd team,between years 2-3 in the running for best current player on our roster,best Raptor on the team, multiple years in a row

RIP Hater
Parthenon
Sophomore
Posts: 109
And1: 27
Joined: Jul 09, 2009
Location: GTA

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#194 » by Parthenon » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:08 pm

bboyskinnylegs wrote:
Parthenon wrote:What happens to the TPE now that the lockout is underway?

we don't know... it will likely expire, unless if Cleveland is successful in obtaining an extension until x number of days into free agency


Why don't the Raptors appeal themselves?
User avatar
satyr9
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,892
And1: 563
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
     

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#195 » by satyr9 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:19 pm

There's an ESPN piece by Larry Coon (he of the fantastic CBA faq): http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... als-110630

Nice and easy read to understand the argument about losses without really being for either side.

That being said, I tend to lean to the player's perspective about the losses. Under the owner's version those losses include the entire cost of purchasing a team, but not the potential future sale of "intangible" assets. Just because a sports franchise doesn't have paper assets adding up to 370 million or 500 million or whatever doesn't mean the purchase price is going to be less. Yes, these are investments and they deserve a ROI, but if the Nets were writing off 40 million in a single year off of 200 million of intangible purchase price, then they're trying to re-coup their entire purchase price in like 5 years, which is a pretty fantastic rate and no wonder they aren't making it for a company they bought in the 100's of millions of dollars.

Now, I'm so far from an accountant, someone is free to come and correct me, but by my reckoning the league is including losses that make future sales of franchises 100% profit and doing so in very short windows of time (like you've already paid off the entire mortgage on your home when you sell it again). That's not barely turning a profit, that's turning as fantastic a profit as you can get anywhere.

Unfortunately for Mr. Coon, I may have just butchered what he was trying to explain, even after I said it was a nice and easy read, but I was mostly drawing conclusions of my own from his info not cribbing what he was saying so it's my inferences, not his article, that would be at fault.
ska
Senior
Posts: 531
And1: 2
Joined: Apr 10, 2008

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#196 » by ska » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:35 pm

Please tell me if:

1)Nba player with a contract can't play in US in another league and they will earn no money during the lockout period ?
2)Nba player with a contract can play in Europe ?
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 58,910
And1: 18,253
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#197 » by Schad » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:48 pm

DG88 wrote:Ken Berger's proposal of a new CBA
More in link
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/1527 ... a_txt_0001


Berger's entirely right...there's no reason to overhaul what is a generally effective system. Just alter the bloody BRI percentages by a couple points and have at 'er. But the owners don't just want to eliminate their often-fictitious losses; they want to crush the union and make the kind of profits that NFL owners reap. And so we'll lose half a season or more of basketball as they try to wring out each additional penny.

Please tell me if:

1)Nba player with a contract can't play in US in another league and they will earn no money during the lockout period ?
2)Nba player with a contract can play in Europe ?


They cannot play in Europe; FIBA prevents it. Starting up a new league that wouldn't uphold NBA contracts is a possibility, but when attempted in the NHL and NFL previously, it was an abject failure.
Image
**** your asterisk.
BLKMASS
Banned User
Posts: 977
And1: 124
Joined: Mar 13, 2011

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#198 » by BLKMASS » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:51 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:
Berger's entirely right...there's no reason to overhaul what is a generally effective system. Just alter the bloody BRI percentages by a couple points and have at 'er. But the owners don't just want to eliminate their often-fictitious losses; they want to crush the union and make the kind of profits that NFL owners reap. And so we'll lose half a season or more of basketball as they try to wring out each additional penny.



:o fml..
Kayjay
Banned User
Posts: 4,839
And1: 180
Joined: Nov 30, 2008

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#199 » by Kayjay » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:51 pm

korea and china should be a possibility though, right?
theonlyeastcoastrapsfan
RealGM
Posts: 26,821
And1: 9,000
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Location: Hotlantic Canada
 

Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks discussion (Players Lockout p1 

Post#200 » by theonlyeastcoastrapsfan » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:53 pm

I think the real issue is among the owners. They could come to deal with the players, but there may not be agreement among the owners on things like revenue sharing and hard or soft cap. It might be easier for stern to try and bleed the players and lower costs that way than to try and get his bosses to see eye to eye on revenue sharing and making is a level playing field for big and small markets.

Return to Toronto Raptors