RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2

[Doormatt]

For me it was a toss up of Russell/MJ for #1, so with #2 I'm going to have to go with Russ. Pretty much all the arguments have already been made for him in the last thread. A GOAT defender/rebounder who provided everything his team needed, and then some, to turn them into the greatest dynasty ever. I think Penbeast in the last thread had a great post about him:

<cut, great read though>

On the pro side, Russell is arguably the greatest rebounder of all time – easily the all-time leader in rebounds per 36 minutes at 19.1 (Wilt was only 18.0 per 36, he just played ungodly minutes) although it is tough to compare him to Rodman because of the problem with different calculations of team rebounds and pace differentials, still he is at worst second. His rebounding dominance is comparable to Jordan’s scoring dominance only great rebounding volume correlates more highly with team success than great scoring volume! He was also the greatest passing center of his era; a better passer for a center than MJ for a guard. He was also a great leader and teammate with everyone that ever played with him singing his praises unanimously. And, he won that 1969 title with an aging and weakened Celtic team with appreciably less talent around him than his main rivals, particularly Wilt. His weakness is his scoring. In his early years, he was a decent scorer (15-20 ppg) with excellent efficiency for his era (top 5 in the league in FG% his first 4 years) though the raw percentage was an unimpressive 44% or so; but in a league where the league average was around 40. Then they moved him outside to take advantage of his passing skills and open lanes for Havlicek and Sam Jones to drive and later for Bailey Howell to set up in the post; he was not an outside shooter (poor FT%) and his shooting suffered accordingly BUT his team continued to win every year and he never complained about sacrificing his individual game for team goals (unlike Jordan). So, for Russell, his case comes down to (1) GOAT winner, (2) GOAT defensive force, (3) GOAT rebounder = GOAT.

[GilmoreFan]

That's why I said "unless Baller or Pen say so". I suggested a list of voters from the people who voted in the first one, to stop late vote spamming, Pen PM'd me saying "sure, put a list up", and I did so (it's on the main thread). If they want him to vote, he will.

Personally I don't see the value of adding a 37 post ballboy who offered no reasons, made 2 quite silly votes, and has no contributed in the lead up to the project, but then that's just me.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Right now it's between KAJ & Wilt for me, though I'm open to any other suggestions. Russell's lack of offensive ability, still weighs heavily for me. Wilt getting All-NBA 1st team 7 to 3 times over Russell, is also still on my mind. Russ's MVPs certainly show his impact, but Wilt & Russ are pretty equal in MVP shares. Stat-wise, Wilt has the edge, efficiency...Wilt again wins out.

As for KAJ, His accolades + stats trump both Wilt & Russell. And like Wilt, KAJ would be a beast in any era, due to his complete game. I guess the big knock on both KAJ is his team impact, and overall nasty disposition. I do wonder how KAJ didn't lead the Lakers further in the 70's, since the NBA's talent was diluted, and there really weren't any centers on his level, IMO

Honorable mention goes to most of the Top 10. Honestly, after MJ, things get a bit murky for me. Both Magic & Bird dominated their eras. Why should they be left out of discussion? Shaq, Kobe, Duncan are the kids of the group, and I fear that will create a bias against them. When looking at their era dominance, and ability across eras, they truly are on par career-wise. Only Hakeem & Dr.J fall behind, IMO.

As a matter of fact, if you take MJ out of the equation, you'll notice that the age bias predicts what the Top 10 typically looks liek on RealGm. Russell/Wilt/KAJ, usually duke it out for #2-4. Then the 80's guys Magic/Bird battle for #5-6 to create the "Immortal 6", and then the kids Shaq/TD/Kobe usually round out the Top 9.

Ask yourselves, if Shaq or KAJ or Hakeem or DRob were to be placed on the Celtics instead of Russell, how differently would they be viewed? Conversely, put Russell in Dwight's palce, or in Shaq's, or in KAJ's, or Hakeem's, or KG's. Where would he rank?

[Gongxi]

I suppose my KAJ and Karl Malone votes from the last thread bears maintaining, since they're both options in this thread.

[GreenHat]

So why is KG just getting nominated when he's good enough to get the #2 vote?

Well, I don't think he is THAT good.

Neither do I. I guess the real Q is - how much better of a basketball player is Bill Russell than Kevin Garnett?

I want an answer that does not involve rings or accolades.

I asked the same question at the other thread.

I think he's better, but the question is how much better is he? Especially given the offensive gap.

On that note, Doctor MJ I replied to a bunch of your posts in the now dead thread, just wanted you to know in case you wanted to take a look.

[34Dayz]

nvm.

[JordansBulls]

I suppose my KAJ and Karl Malone votes from the last thread bears maintaining, since they're both options in this thread.

Why Karl over Moses?

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Shaquille O'Neal
Nomination: Oscar Robertson

Sorry, but you're not on the list of voters, so unless the 2 guys running the project want to extend the vote to you and your 37 posts, this should be disregarded...

Ah sorry... my mistake, I thought anyone could vote.

We would love to have you, but we had a thread for 3 weeks asking who wanted to participate. You can participate if you want, but right now the voting panel is closed.

[Doormatt]

Oh yeah, I nominate Jerry West.

[34Dayz]

We would love to have you, but we had a thread for 3 weeks asking who wanted to participate. You can participate if you want, but right now the voting panel is closed.

its no problem.. have fun, ill catch the next one.

[Gongxi]

Karl was an arguable top 5 player for over 10 years. Moses' peak may have been a little better, but I don't think it went on for long enough. It's a close call, though. I'm sure everyone agrees that Bill Walton's prime is too short to place over Malone's excellence over three separate decades, but Moses? It gets closer to the line between peak trumping longevity and vice versa. And I think Moses falls on the wrong side of that line.

Karl had 14 straight seasons of 20/9+. 12 of those were 20/10+. 9 of those were 25/10+. That, coupled with the legendary few amount of games missed, is sort of ridiculous.

When you compare that to Moses, the difference is clear.11 20/9s, 11 20/10s, 5 25/10s. Now, he was the better rebounder, and those arbitrary benchmarks don't highlight that. But I simply think Karl was a premier player for longer than Moses was, and I'm not completely convinced that Moses was any better at their very best anyway.

[Dr Positivity]

I think I'd nominate Garnett over either Malone, tbh

[GilmoreFan]

Moses won the MVP over prime Kareem, and I don't think it was a controversial, or even wrong decision. While the 1979 RPOY award gives it to Kareem, it's at least a discussion between the two. Moses was named in the first team over Kareem in 83 and 82 as well, when Kareem was only just tailing off from his prime. Is there any doubt at all Moses was a clear top 5 NBA player for a 7 year stretch (79-85)? I think his peak definitely trumps Karl Malone for impact. It's not like Karl was Tim Duncan, kicking heads and taking names in the playoffs, he was generally a mediocre performer, losing many series (9 first round defeats with Stockton!), and often going down to teams that should have been inferior. I like what Moses offers alot more.

[Dr Positivity]

I'd side with Karl over Moses. As mentioned, it seems like peak is a => thing for Moses at best and Karl was clearly at that level for longer. I'm not a WS guy, but it's a pretty stark difference between them. Karl 10x over 15 Ws, Moses 2x. Karl 13x over 13 Ws, Moses 4x. Karl 15x over 10 WS, Moses 7x.

Obviously you can't trust WS but that generally ties in with my opinion of Karl vs Moses, that even if Moses was a little bigger in his biggest years, Karl going off for literally 13 years at a slightly lower level makes up for it. As for the ring, I think we can all agree the 83 team was ridiculously stacked as they were a near title winner even before adding a reigning MVP

Though as I alluded to, there's a number of players I have before either (West, Oscar, Garnett, possibly LBJ and Wade) so this isn't my argument right now I suppose

[Fencer reregistered]

To summarize the most contentious points about Russell -- Russell did the best things to contribute to winning in his era. Period. The consistent winning is powerful evidence for that, as are the many MVP awards (even when he was 2nd-team rather than 1st-team all-NBA), as are the consistently effusive comments from his contemporaries. And nobody has suggested a way he could have been better in rebounding, defense, outlet passing, or high post passing, in which areas he by all evidence was respectively the GOAT (or GOAT runner-up), the GOAT, the GOAT runner-up, and a strong contender for GOAT. Similarly pick-setting and so on.

So any argument against Russell is equivalent to a form of "Fine, but if something else had been needed, he wouldn't have been able to deliver", where the "something else" has to be scoring (perhaps plus passing out of the post, if he were doing more low-post scoring). Based on available video, he dunked just fine, so what we're really talking about is that his moves were restricted to the inaccurate, sweeping hook shots of the day.

Is that a fair summary?

[Dr Positivity]

Moses won the MVP over prime Kareem, and I don't think it was a controversial, or even wrong decision. .

Well, Karl won MVP over prime MJ In both cases I think, the voters were bored of giving it a guy who'd won 4+ times. Rose beating Lebron is another good example of "this guy has MVPs, our standards are now immediately higher to give it to him AGAIN", IMO

[GilmoreFan]

Yeh, but in Karl's (and especially Rose's) case it was a) unjustified, and b) against a late-prime Jordan (not peak Jordan). In Kareem's case there was serious debate at the time about who was better, and that's reflected in Moses beating him for some all-NBA teams. I think people thought Moses was alot closer to near-peak Kareem than people thought Karl was close to late prime Jordan. Indeed, Kareem was under alot of scrutiny after he went to LA, and if the team doesn't get Magic he would be perceived very differently (and I say that as someone who just voted Kareem as #2 all-time).

[Dr Positivity]

I don't know, just looking at it, Kareem finished 4th in 79 behind Gervin and Hayes too. I think Moses beating him was more people being down on Kareem that year, having his worst scoring year to date, only winning 47 with talented players like Dantley/Wilkes/Nixon, having lost in the playoffs year after year with LA. It's easy to see how they could be swayed into forgetting him a bit - meanwhile here's Moses and Gervin in their first few years breaking out as superstars and possibly looking like the kings of the 80s to come, and the two #1 seeds Wiz and Sonics just played a Game 7 of the Finals last year.. not a ton of room for Kareem and his underwhelming Lakers. Just like Durant finished over Wade in 10 in MVP votes and had way more talk even though really, Wade has always been better and it's not close. 4th is not an insult most years. Erving was the one really forgotten in 78 and 79 by MVP votes. Was still on the map statistically and getting wins and got a #10 and goose-egg those two years. Again, I don't think it reflects how good Erving was or what the league thought of him... just happens, especially in the aftermath of the 77 team getting the 2011 Mavs over Heat treatment by the Blazers

[GilmoreFan]

My point is Moses MVP's look a hell of alot more impressive to me than Karl's bull$#@! ones. Karl got 1 because voters were tired of giving it to MJ (his 97 win makes no sense at all), and 1 because of seniority in the shortened season, when in retrospect Duncan should have gotten that MVP. Moses has a good case for some of his MVP's at least, something the RPOY project also bears out, and he was beating out alot of impressive candidates. Who else did Karl beat in 97? A past prime Barkley? Gary Payton? Please.

[Doormatt]

We would love to have you, but we had a thread for 3 weeks asking who wanted to participate. You can participate if you want, but right now the voting panel is closed.

its no problem.. have fun, ill catch the next one.

You should participate if you want, though you're going to have explain things like why you would vote Shaq #2. I'm not sure if you're gonna wanna wait for the next one, since the last time this was done was 3 years ago.