RealGM Top 100 #3

[ronnymac2]

AUF, why so much love for Barkley? Nowizki, Wade, LeBron, Garnett, Malone, Robinson, Fraizer, West, Robertson, Havlicek ALL bare a mention before him, pretty easily. As great of a RS he's had and how much peak dominance he's had, he doesn't have the playoff accolades to compare with any of these guys. And while LeBron may not either when it comes to championships, he's clearly got a peak that's considered a GOAT level for about 3-4 seasons now, that maybe only 4 players in league history might be capable of matching. That's a considerable advantage of Barkley, while Malone's got that kind of superstar peak and prime continuing for 10+ seasons.

Baller, Barkley is a dominant individual playoff performer. The dude came up with monster series/games/moments for many years. He didn't consistently fail like Robinson did, and he was a better basketball player than Havlicek and Frazier were.

Charles vs. Karl, KG, and even Dirk are debatable. I've got West and Robertson ahead of him though.

[Gongxi]

^^^^
I tend to agree. All the great PFs, really, are so close that I'd almost say it's a matter of personal preference and ease in creating the optimal team around them.

[JordansBulls]

AUF, why so much love for Barkley? Nowizki, Wade, LeBron, Garnett, Malone, Robinson, Fraizer, West, Robertson, Havlicek ALL bare a mention before him, pretty easily. As great of a RS he's had and how much peak dominance he's had, he doesn't have the playoff accolades to compare with any of these guys. And while LeBron may not either when it comes to championships, he's clearly got a peak that's considered a GOAT level for about 3-4 seasons now, that maybe only 4 players in league history might be capable of matching. That's a considerable advantage of Barkley, while Malone's got that kind of superstar peak and prime continuing for 10+ seasons.

Baller, Barkley is a dominant individual playoff performer. The dude came up with monster series/games/moments for many years. He didn't consistently fail like Robinson did, and he was a better basketball player than Havlicek and Frazier were.

Charles vs. Karl, KG, and even Dirk are debatable. I've got West and Robertson ahead of him though.

I agree with most of what you said, I think Hondo has a case over Sir Charles though.

[Baller 24]

AUF, why so much love for Barkley? Nowizki, Wade, LeBron, Garnett, Malone, Robinson, Fraizer, West, Robertson, Havlicek ALL bare a mention before him, pretty easily. As great of a RS he's had and how much peak dominance he's had, he doesn't have the playoff accolades to compare with any of these guys. And while LeBron may not either when it comes to championships, he's clearly got a peak that's considered a GOAT level for about 3-4 seasons now, that maybe only 4 players in league history might be capable of matching. That's a considerable advantage of Barkley, while Malone's got that kind of superstar peak and prime continuing for 10+ seasons.

Baller, Barkley is a dominant individual playoff performer. The dude came up with monster series/games/moments for many years. He didn't consistently fail like Robinson did, and he was a better basketball player than Havlicek and Frazier were.

Charles vs. Karl, KG, and even Dirk are debatable. I've got West and Robertson ahead of him though.

No doubt he was, but if we're also including their accomplishments at peak form, I've got Fraizer and Hondo ahead slightly.

[penbeast0]

I might agree on Havlicek who I think is overrated offensively . . . in the 70s he was a terrrific second banana but in the 60s, he was extremely inefficient even for his era.

However, there is no way Barkley was a better basketball player than Frazier. More athletic, okay. More efficient and greater volume, yes, though Frazier was as much ahead of his PG peers as Barkley was ahead of his PF peers.

However, there's more to the game than scoring. Barkley was a great rebounder but, at least in his Philly days (he got better in Phoenix) he was a careless passer and of course, an even more careless defender. His one strength defensively is his quickness for his bulk, he could hold position and recover quickly. However, his defensive IQ was awful, he himself said that when Larry Bird retired he was sad because there was no worse defensive player left in the league. He missed rotations and didn't work hard at that end. Add to that his legendary partying and ego; he was a poor practice player and didn't listen to coaches much either.

Now take the rest of Frazier's game. He was an excellent rebounding guard, averaging 6 a game over the course of his career, his rep as a distributor is much better than his assist numbers from his teammates and peers -- Holtzman's system didn't use a ball dominant point, and his defense is either the best or second best of all time (Payton). He was also super clutch and led the Knicks to 2 titles as their best player (although Reed got the "inspirational" Finals MVP). He is clearly above Barkley on my top 100 list and ranks as the 4th best PF of all time pretty easily behind only Magic/Oscar/West.

[Baller 24]

I have Barkley as my #3 PF of all-time, slighty ahead of Dirk, who's slighty ahead of KG.

Barkley is the greatest offensive PF ever. While Dirk is a better shooter, Barkley had good shot, and a devastating post game. He was also a monster on the offensive boards, and a great passer. From 87'-90', Barkley led the league in TS%, and was 65%+ all those years. His career TS was 61.2%.

Barkley is also on par, if not better than KG as a rebounder. In 87' where Chuck posted 14.6 rpg, he also grabbed 5.7 offensive boards at a 16.7% rate. Barkley had 13 years with 11+ rpg to KG's 8.

Defensively....well, that's the reason Barkley is around the #15 range, and not the #5. He was a decent post defender, even against guys like Shaq, and his defensive rebounding was great. But, he was lazy on rotations, and due to being out of shape many of his years, didn't have the stamina to put forth much defensive effort. nevermind the fact that he was 6'6 and very undersized.

Playoff-wise, Barkley isn't much different from most of the players in the #12-20 range. He had a shot in 93', but came up short against MJ. His offensive numbers dropped a bit from the RS, and he had his short-comings like most 1 title/ringless HOFers do.

Overall, Barkley had 2.438 MVP shares, and 8 Top 6 MVP finishes. He was either 1st or 2nd team All-NBA for 10 straight years.

I'll repeat the same thing, he's awesome, probably one of the most lethal and greatest offensive weapons of all-time, absolutely with his volume and efficiency paired with his dominant skills as a basketball player, but at peak and prime form, his short-comings have to be discredited at some point. Barkley on the '97 Rockets was huge, if he hadn't gotten injured they would have been the best team in the western conference, they started out very hot, and in the playoffs, it was him who was the biggest force against the Sonics (a team the Rockets before that have never beaten in the playoffs, Hakeem struggled defensively against their dominant offense, where he needed help, and Barkley was the perfect fit).

However with Nowitzki & Garnett, I'll give you this for Kevin. He's got the accolades locked up on the All-NBA side, very easily with a total of 9 All-NBA Teams (4 firsts). Then he's also got the very dominance on defense, where he's been a one of the best this decade with 11 (9 firsts), and he's also slightly above Barkley on MVP win-shares. While also at peak form, they're as comparable as any of the all-time greats, statistically speaking. But that extra playoff run, where Garnett is the clear best on the '08 Celtics while anchoring a defense that's statistically amongst the all-time great. He's got the clear advantage over Barkley, FROM your point of view that is, relying on a strict proportion of NBA accolades. Especially considering the advantage Garnett has defensively his significant between the two, compared to Barkley's advantage over Garnett, while it is a CLEAR advantage to Barkley, the difference isn't big enough to overcome the clear advantage on defense. Those are just my two-cents.

As for Nowitzki, it's kind of different, he's basically a scoring version of Bird inside a 7 foot body. We've never seen a skillset this got for a big-man his height, and I'm just giving him the extra boost from his dominant playoff run, while he's also got the accolades to rank up there with Barkley.

[drza]

I know most are considering this a foregone conclusion for Kareem, and I don't really have the time to post much tonight, but...at the moment I'm seriously considering Magic for the #3 spot.

Interesting. I'd like to hear the argument.

More of bullet points than a coherent argument. I was hoping there would be some others that may have had similar thoughts and formulated them already, but it doesn't look like it. So, some thoughts...

1) I've found that there are some players that...for want of a better way to put it, they look better from a distance. If you just go by the big accomplishments, Kareem seems like an obvious choice. 6 titles, 6 MVPs, scoring record, longevity. It's a CV worthy of the best ever.

But in the RPoY project when we looked closer, Wilt may have been the only other all-time great that cooled on me more than Kareem did. In fact, had Wilt come first in the order we voted, my voting record on Kareem may have been different. Most specifically, both had the dominant stats but both somewhat paled in comparison to a rival that didn't score nearly as much but seemed to have bigger impacts when any attempt was made to move beyond the pure box scores. Wilt/Russell ended up being the tipping point for me because it was so clear and repetitive, the impact that Russell was having despite Wilt's video game numbers.

But with Kareem the rival, Walton, only had a few healthy peak seasons so it was too short of a period for me to fully pull the trigger at the time. I'm pretty sure that when in doubt, I tended to side with Kareem with the thought process that Walton had a strong case, but when in doubt I used Kareem's much bigger scoring numbers as the tie-breaker. But upon further reflection, Walton's injuries allowed for better +/- projections than even the rough estimates used for Wilt/Russell a generation later. And Kareem had a few injuries too, that allowed for similar calculations. And in the comparisons, Walton's impact difference dwarfed Kareem's. Now, I'd never argue that Walton should be higher than Kareem on the list for the obvious longevity concerns, but...if I open the possibility that Walton was making a bigger impact than Kareem at his best, I have to then re-consider if Kareem's peak was quite as GOAT-ish as the box scores and MVPs suggest. And if his impact WASN'T quite as GOAT-ish as I thought, then does he have a bit more in common with Wilt than with the Russell's and Jordan's of the world?

2) The NBA/ABA dichotomy. It's interesting to me the way that the ABA is held against Dr. J...the argument is that he put up video game stats in a weaker league, but that when he came to the NBA, while still great, he never replicated the huge numbers he showed in the ABA. Then, lately, there's been a bit of a push-back among Doc J supporters that the ABA actually had a similar competition level as the NBA. That J's numbers shouldn't be discounted, because he was doing it in a league that was just as strong as the NBA was. And in a year-to-year competition like the RPoY project, that's fine because you're comparing within the year. But in the scheme of things, an ABA "as strong" as the NBA just means that the available talent in the league was split in half. Which also came right after NBA expansion, which also arguably split the available talent in the league in half compared to the pre-expansion 60s.

I don't necessarily put a huge amount of energy into trying to normalize league quality across era beyond the shot-clock/integration era. That said, I can't help noticing that Kareem's numbers seemed a lot more impressive in the post-expansion/ABA period than after the leagues merged, and that the lion-share of Kareem's MVPs also came in this period. The same way that we take Doc J's 29-point/12-rebound average (that he never replicated in the NBA) and his 3 ABA MVPs with a grain of salt, I wonder if we should take Kareem's 30-point/16-rebound average from pre-merger (that he never replicated after the merger) and his 4 pre-merger MVPs also with a grain of salt. I don't doubt that Kareem was often the best player in the world during the 70s. But I do wonder if his raw numbers and accolades make us believe that he was a better player w/r.t. history than we would have believed if those numbers and accolades weren't quite so dominant-looking in a single, more concentrated league.

3) Kareem vs. alternatives. I, too, would still tend to favor Kareem over Wilt. The questions that I raised in point 1 about Kareem were more evident for Wilt, and I find the other arguments that folks have made compelling so I'd keep Kareem above Wilt.

The next folks in the equation that could possibly earn any traction here are Magic, Bird, possibly Shaq. Of the 3, the one that I find most compelling is Magic. Yes, his career was only 12 years to Kareem's 20. But. To the extent we were able to determine, IIRC Magic was having a huge impact from very early on. He came in, and the Lakers offense immediately changed levels. As someone (Doc MJ?) pointed out, Magic joins Oscar as the only 2 players to immediately and obviously be connected with some of the greatest offenses of all-time over the course of their career. Nash joins that group in Phoenix, and Kareem as he was playing with both Magic and Oscar, but the 2 huge point guards are the only two that are consistently in that huge offensive group. In fact, Magic's offensive impact...might it be similar to the defensive impact that just won Russell the #2 slot in another career that spanned only 13 years?

4) Magic. Magic's gross career resume is actually pretty darn close to Kareem's, considering Kareem played almost twice as long. Kareem has 6 rings, Magic has 5. Kareem has Magic 6 - 3 on MVPs, but consider what I wrote in point (2) above...might Dr. J or someone else have edged Kareem a few times through those years? Or, put another way, Kareem finished top-3 in the MVP vote 9 times in his career. Magic finished top-3 in the MVP vote...9 times in his career. But whereas Magic was getting edged by Bird or Jordan, Kareem's main competition wasn't in his same league. I say all of this as someone that doesn't even love ranking by accolades, but in this case I'm making a first-blush argument that Magic's name should be mentioned with Kareem's. While longevity has it's place, if Magic racked up roughly the same major accolades as Kareem but in half of the time...might that not be an indication that he was moving at a better pace through his years than Kareem was? And since Magic's upper level career was still over a decade long, I'm not sure that I really count his early retirement against him THAT strongly.

5) Beyond the accolades. Again, outside of the last decade we don't have any real in-depth +/- numbers for older players. But from the rough work we could do, Magic's impact measured out as a pretty consistent A+ while Kareem's at times wasn't quite to that level. Magic very quickly grew into the team engine for those Lakers, while Kareem was always considered more of a talented individual than a leader. Kareem used his awesome abilities, like Wilt, to make himself the best individual producer in the game. Magic used his awesome abilities, like Russell, to make the biggest team impact in the league. At the moment, before you smarter historians come through and tear my case apart, I'm not sure that I'm not more impressed with Magic's overall career than I am with Kareem's.

[ElGee]

Magic and Kareem are a coin flip for me at No. 3, and when that's the case I usually side with peak play. Yes, I do think peak Magic is better than peak Kareem. The other tricky issue with Magic is that he had some kind of perfect storm with HIV. This wasn't an injury, and maybe he would have been addicted to drugs if he played 5 years earlier...I doubt it. But when HIV came in, our education about it, and then forcing him out (as if there aren't HIV positive athletes in the world today still competing)...and again it's hard for me to not think "man, I'd rather have Magic on my team" over a career. Obviously he could still totally ball in 1992, and who is to say if the commish weren't different or certain players didn't push for it, Magic might have played then even with the virus. I usually stay away from any what ifs (Russell started in the 50s...but WHAT IF MICHAEL JORDAN DIDN"T HAVE AN OLDER BROTHER!?), but in this case when it's so close I'll give a slight mental edge to Johnson.

Drza has a nice points above. I imagine we're going into greater detail in the next thread on Magic, but if anyone wants further details I'll provide them. For me, it's

Vote: Magic Johnson
Nominate: Karl Malone

[FJS]

My vote goes to KAJ

6 MVP, alltime scorer, 19 times allstar 2 finals MVP...
Well, he was a beast in offense and pretty good in defense.


My nomitaion: Karl Malone

[Dr Positivity]

On Kareem/Walton and Wilt/Russell

I have no problem with Kareem losing to Portland in 77. Dantley has proven to be a guy teams are better off without, after that, they really didn't have anything and the Blazers were clearly a behemoth. Kareem was awesome in defeat in 77 which is enough for me. I compare those years more to early 60s Wilt or like present day Dwight Howard, than the 68 Sixers and 69 Lakers

The Seattle 78 and 79 Ls look a little worse for the team and Kareem with more talent like Nixon, Wilkes coming in, but I think it's pretty clear the Lakers just didn't have a great flow or chemistry without Magic, which could be Kareem's fault especially compared to a consumate team vibes guy like Walton and Russell, but it could also just be a result of a lot of losing and having bad roster balance - for the same reason you could say, can you blame Dwight for the Magic's effort and chemistry getting flushed this year, sure I suppose, but then again, it's hard to keep that stuff up with a planking Vince, Hedo (twice), Arenas, paid and not trying Shard, etc. coming in and out of town.

[ThaRegul8r]

Vis-a-vis Kareem vs. Wilt, I see both sides of the argument that supporters of each respective player presents. I'll try to present both sides, because I dislike simply giving a vote with no explanation, I wish to generate discussion on this, and I haven't made up my own mind yet.

ADVANTAGES ON KAREEM'S LEDGER

Kareem Abdul Jabbar is a record six-time NBA Most Valuable Player (1970-71, ’71-72, ’73-74, ’75-76, ’76-77, ’79-80), 19-time All-Star, 10-time All-NBA First Team selection, five-team All-NBA Second Team selection, five-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection, six-time NBA All-Defensive Second Team selection, six-time NBA champion, two-time NBA Finals MVP and the NBA’s all-time leader in points, minutes, field goals made and field goals attempted.

Kareem led the league in field-goal percentage once and finished second five times (1970-71, ’71-72, ’73-74, ’78-79, ’79-80), third once (1972-73), fourth five times (1974-75, ’77-78, ’81-82, ’82-83, ’84-85), and fifth three times (1975-76, ’80-81, ’86-87)—15 top five finishes. He put up the two highest field-goal percentages with a 30 points-per-game scoring average in a single season and had three of the top seven, and finished second in the league in true shooting percentage twice, third three times, and had two more top five finishes and six top ten finishes.

Kareem led the league in blocked shots four times—the most since they’ve kept track of the stat in 1973-74, and that’s without his first four seasons being recorded. Kareem finished first or second in the league in blocked shots the first seven years the statistic was recorded, and in the top three the first nine years blocks were recorded, which was his 13th season in the league. He had five seasons finishing in the top five in scoring, rebounding and blocked shots, with back-to-back seasons finishing in the top three—he finished second in scoring and first in rebounds and blocks in 1975-76.

Kareem led the league in Player Efficiency Rating nine times (29.0 in 1970-71, 29.9 in 1971-72, 28.5 in 1972-73, 26.4 in 1974-75, 27.2 in 1975-76, 27.8 in 1976-77, 29.2 in 1977-78, 25.5 in 1978-79, 25.5 in 1980-81), finishing second three times (1969-70 [to Jerry West 24.6-22.5], ’73-74 [Bob McAdoo 24.7-24.4], 1979-80 [to Julius Erving 25.4-25.3]). In the entire decade of the 1970s, Kareem either led or finished second in the league in PER. In NBA history only WILT CHAMBERLAIN accomplished this feat, leading the league in PER for seven consecutive seasons from 1961-62 to 1967-68, and finishing second in 1960-61 and 1968-69. Kareem finished first or second in Player Efficiency Rating for the first 12 years of his career, leading a record nine times. No one else in the history of the game has ever done that.

Kareem was the most dominant player of the '70s.

Kareem was drafted by the Milwaukee Bucks, who’d finished 27-55 the previous season—the second-worst record in the league. With Abdul-Jabbar, the Bucks finished 56-26—a 29-game turnaround which was the greatest in NBA history at the time, and made it to the Eastern Division Finals before losing to New York in five. A year later they would acquire Oscar Robertson from Cincinnati, and they went a league-best 66-16 during the regular season and 12-2 during the playoffs, sweeping the Baltimore Bullets by an average of 9.25 points per game to win the NBA championship, Abdul-Jabbar averaging 27 points, 18.5 rebounds and 2.8 assists in 42 minutes per game, shooting 60.5 percent from the field and 76.2 percent from the line as the Finals MVP.

Kareem was the leading scorer on three of the Lakers’ five championship teams in the 1980s. In the 1979-80 season, Abdul-Jabbar was the league MVP, averaging 24.8 points (6th in the league), 10.8 rebounds (8th), 4.5 assists and 3.41 blocked shots (1st), shooting 60.4 percent from the field (2nd) in 38.3 minutes per game, and First Team NBA All-Defense. During the playoffs he averaged 31.9 points, 12.1 rebounds, 3.1 assists and 3.87 blocked shots per game, shooting 57.9 percent from the field, and in the NBA Finals against the Philadelphia 76ers, averaged 33.4 points on 54.9 percent shooting, 13.6 rebounds, 4.6 blocked shots and 3.2 assists in 40.6 minutes per game before spraining his ankle in the third quarter of Game 5 in Los Angeles where he had 40 points on 16-for-24 shooting (66.7%), 15 rebounds and four blocked shots in 41 minutes. In 1981-82, Abdul-Jabbar averaged a team-high 23.9 points per game (6th in the league), 8.7 rebounds (19th, second on the team behind Magic’s 9.6), 3.0 assists, and 2.72 blocked shots (3rd) in 35.2 minutes per game, shooting 57.9 percent from the field (4th). In 1984-85, Abdul-Jabbar averaged a team-high 22.0 points per game (20th in the league), 7.9 rebounds, 3.2 assists, and 2.05 blocked shots (10th), shooting 59.9 percent from the field (4th) in 33.3 minutes per game, and was Second Team All-NBA.

Wilt was the greatest volume scorer in NBA history. However, while Kareem never reached the volume that Wilt did, he was more efficient in his volume scoring.

HIGHEST FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE IN A SEASON, WITH 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FGM FG%
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 1063 .577
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 1159 .574
3. Adrian Dantley Utah 1981-82 30.3 1586 904 .570
4. Karl Malone Utah 1989-90 31.0 1627 914 .562
5. Adrian Dantley Utah 1980-81 30.7 1627 909 .559
6. Adrian Dantley Utah 1983-84 30.6 1438 802 .558
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1972-73 30.2 1772 982 .554
8. Bob McAdoo Buffalo 1973-74 30.6 1647 901 .547
9. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1965-66 33.5 1990 1074 .540
10. Michael Jordan Chicago 1990-91 31.5 1837 990 .539
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11. Michael Jordan Chicago 1988-89 32.5 1795 966 .538
12. Michael Jordan Chicago 1987-88 35.0 1998 1069 .535
13. Bernard King New York 1984-85 32.9 1303 691 .530
14. Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco 1962-63 44.8 2770 1463 .528
15. George Gervin San Antonio 1979-80 33.1 1940 1024 .528
16. Michael Jordan Chicago 1989-90 33.6 1964 1034 .526
17. Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco 1963-64 36.9 2298 1204 .524
18. Walt Bellamy Chicago 1961-62 31.6 1875 973 .519
19. Michael Jordan Chicago 1991-92 30.1 1818 943 .519
20. Moses Malone Houston 1981-82 31.1 1822 945 .519
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21. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1974-75 30.0 1584 812 .513
22. Bob McAdoo New York 1974-75 34.5 2138 1095 .512
23. Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco 1964-65 34.7 2083 1063 .510
24. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1960-61 38.4 2457 1251 .509
25. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1961-62 50.4 3159 1597 .506
26. George Gervin San Antonio 1981-82 32.3 1987 993 .500

Here are the most efficient 30 ppg seasons in NBA history:

HIGHEST TRUE SHOOTING PERCENTAGE IN A SEASON, WITH 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FTA Pts TS%
1. Adrian Dantley Utah 1983-84 30.6 1438 946 2418 .652
2. Adrian Dantley Utah 1981-82 30.3 1586 818 2457 .631
3. Karl Malone Utah 1989-90 31.0 1627 913 2540 .626
4. Adrian Dantley Utah 1980-81 30.7 1627 784 2452 .622
5. Michael Jordan Chicago 1988-89 32.5 1795 793 2633 .614
6. Michael Jordan Chicago 1989-90 33.6 1964 699 2753 .60597
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 681 2596 .60579
8. Michael Jordan Chicago 1990-91 31.5 1837 671 2580 .605
9. Michael Jordan Chicago 1987-88 35.0 1998 860 2868 .6034
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 732 2822 .6027
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11. Bob McAdoo Buffalo 1973-74 30.6 1647 579 2261 .594
12. George Gervin San Antonio 1979-80 33.1 1940 593 2585 .587
13. Bernard King New York 1984-85 32.9 1303 552 1809 .585
14. Oscar Robertson Cincinnati 1966-67 30.5 1699 843 2412 .583
15. Michael Jordan Chicago 1995-96 30.4 1850 657 2491 .582
16. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1972-73 30.2 1772 460 2292 .580
17. Kobe Bryant Los Angeles 2006-07 31.6 1757 768 2430 .57997
18. Michael Jordan Chicago 1991-92 30.1 1818 590 2404 .579
19. Moses Malone Houston 1981-82 31.1 1822 827 2520 .5764
20. Oscar Robertson Cincinnati 1963-64 31.4 1740 938 2480 .5760
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21. Dwayne Wade Miami 2008-09 30.2 1739 771 2386 .574
22. Jerry West Los Angeles 1965-66 31.3 1731 977 2476 .573
23. Jerry West Los Angeles 1964-65 31.0 1655 789 2292 .572
24. Jerry West Los Angeles 1969-70 31.2 1673 785 2309 .57199
25. Bob McAdoo New York 1974-75 34.5 2138 796 2831 .569
26. LeBron James Cleveland 2005-06 31.4 1823 814 2478 .568
27. LeBron James Cleveland 2007-08 30.0 1642 771 2250 .5678
28. Tracy McGrady Orlando 2002-03 32.1 1813 726 2407 .564
29. Michael Jordan Chicago 1992-93 32.6 2003 569 2541 .5638
30. Oscar Robertson Cincinnati 1965-66 31.3 1723 881 2378 .563
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31. George Gervin San Antonio 1981-82 32.3 1987 642 2551 .562
32. Oscar Robertson Cincinnati 1964-65 30.4 1681 793 2279 .561
33. Kobe Bryant Los Angeles 2005-06 35.4 2173 819 2832 .559
34. Oscar Robertson Cincinnati 1960-61 30.5 1600 794 2165 .555
35. Nate Archibald Kansas City 1972-73 34.0 2106 783 2719 .5548
36. Walt Bellamy Chicago 1961-62 31.6 1875 853 2495 .55437
37. Oscar Robertson Cincinnati 1961-62 30.8 1810 872 2432 .55432
38. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1974-75 30.0 1584 426 1949 .55012
39. Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco 1962-63 44.8 2770 1113 3586 .55005
40. Kobe Bryant Los Angeles 2002-03 30.0 1924 713 2461 .5499
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41. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1965-66 33.5 1990 976 2649 .547
42. Lloyd B. Free San Diego 1979-80 30.2 1556 760 2055 .544
43. Allen Iverson Philadelphia 2005-06 33.0 1822 829 2377 .543
44. Bob McAdoo Buffalo 1975-76 31.1 1918 734 2427 .542
45. Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco 1963-64 36.9 2298 1016 2948 .537
46. Dominique Wilkins Atlanta 1985-86 30.3 1897 705 2366 .53597
47. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1961-62 50.4 3159 1363 4029 .53595
48. Dominique Wilkins Atlanta 1987-88 30.7 1957 655 2397 .534
49. Allen Iverson Philadelphia 2004-05 30.7 1818 786 2302 .532
50. Rick Barry San Francisco 1966-67 35.6 2240 852 2775 .531
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51. Bob Pettit Atlanta 1961-62 31.1 1928 901 2429 .522
52. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1960-61 38.4 2457 1054 3033 .5192
53. Elgin Baylor Los Angeles 1962-63 34.0 2273 790 2719 .5188
54. Allen Iverson Philadelphia 2000-01 31.1 1813 719 2207 .518
55. Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco 1964-65 34.7 2083 880 2534 .513
56. Rick Barry San Francisco 1974-75 30.6 2217 436 2450 .509

(I know I updated it with Kevin Durant, yet I don't see his name. This must be a backup document I had.)

Chamberlain was the greatest volume scorer in the history of the game, but Abdul-Jabbar was more efficient during his high-scoring seasons than Chamberlain was during his. Kareem has the seventh, 10th, 16th, and 36th-most efficient 30-point-per-game seasons in NBA history, while Wilt’s most efficient 30-point-per-game season comes in at 37th, and he has the 39th, 43rd, 45th, and 50th most efficient 30 ppg seasons. No one ever scored the volume with the efficiency that Kareem did in 1971-72: 34.8 points per game on 60.2% TS. Kareem is one of only four men in NBA history (with Adrian Dantley, Karl Malone and Michael Jordan) to average 30 points a game for a season on .600+ true shooting percentage, and one of three men to do it more than once. Kareem shot 55.9 percent from the floor for his career.

Unlike Chamberlain, Kareem was able to win a title as the league’s leading scorer (31.7 points-per-game in 1970-71). No one had done it since GEORGE MIKAN, and no one did it again until Michael Jordan did it from 1991 to 1993 and 1996 to 1998 and SHAQUILLE O’NEAL in 2000. Wilt became more efficient once he curtailed his scoring, and put up the GOAT single season in 1967.

Kareem was a vastly superior free-throw shooter than Chamberlain, shooting 72.1 percent from the free-throw line for his career to Chamberlain’s 51.1 percent. In Game 6 of the 1988 NBA Finals against the Detroit Pistons, at the age of 41, Abdul-Jabbar was fouled by Bill Laimbeer with 14 seconds left and the Lakers down by one, stepped to the line and hit both free throws to give the Lakers a 103-102 win, tying the series at three games apiece and sending it to Game 7. Thus you could throw the ball to Kareem for the final shot and not have to worry about teams fouling him:

Kareem’s Game-Winners

#1) 1971 All-Star Game, January 13, 1971 — Alcindor banked in a five-footer and converted a free throw after being fouled with 48 seconds left to put the West ahead 108-105, and the West won 108-107.

#2) January 27, 1971 — Alcindor scored 53 points on 22-for-31 shooting (71.0%) to tie his NBA single-game high and hit the game-winning basket with 16 seconds left to give Milwaukee a 132-129 win over Boston.

#3) March 28, 1973 — Kareem hit a 20-foot jump shot with 1:03 to play to beat the Lakers 85-84. Kareem scored 24 for the game.

#4) Game 6 1974 NBA Finals — Kareem hit a skyhook to give Milwaukee a 102-101 win to tie the series at 3-3 and send it to a deciding Game 7 in Milwaukee.

#5) January 13, 1976 — Kareem hit a 25-foot jump shot to beat the Bulls 104-102. “With three seconds left to play and the score tied, Abdul-Jabbar came outside to take the inbounds pass from Cornell Warner, turned to the basket and fired. Who said the big guy was only good around the basket?” (Lawrence Journal-World, Jan. 14, 1976). “I guess I tried to mimic Wilt Chamberlain’s style,” Abdul-Jabbar said. “I didn’t hesitate. I used to practice that shot a lot in high school, but in the pros the skyhook has obviously been my bread-and-butter shot.”

#6) January 10, 1977 — Kareem hit a jump hook with four seconds left to give the Lakers a 101-99 win over the Clippers. Scored a season-high 40 points.

#7) January 27, 1979 — Kareem scored a season-high 40 points, eight in the final two minutes to give LA a 111-109 win. “Kareem hit two field goals and four free throws in the final minutes to give the Lakers the win” (Eugene-Register Guard, Jan. 28, 1979).

#7) 1979 Western Conference Semifinals — In Game 3, Kareem scored 29 points on 13-for-19 shooting, with 16 rebounds, eight steals and six blocked shots, and hit a 10 foot hook shot with 12 seconds left to give LA a 112-111 victory and 2-1 series win over Denver.

#8) October 12, 1979 — Kareem hit an 18-foot skyhook at the buzzer for a 103-102 win over the San Diego Clippers in the season opener. This game is memorable for Magic Johnson jumping on Jabbar and hugging him. “In the locker room after the game, I said, ‘Magic, we’ve got 81 more games.’ He understood where I was coming from. We were in this for the long haul.”

#9) February 28, 1982 — Kareem hit a 15-foot hook shot with two seconds left to give the Lakers a 102-101 win over the Cleveland Cavaliers.

#10) November 27, 1983 — Kareem hit a sky hook to break a 99-99 tie with 2:37 remaining. “James Worthy made a free throw with 14 seconds left and Chicago was able to get off only a wild 3-point shot by Dave Corzine at the buzzer” (NY Times, Nov. 28, 1983). LA won 103-100.

#10) 1983 Western Conference vs. Portland — In Game 3, Kareem hit a 16-foot fadeaway to give the Lakers the win.

#11) December 17, 1984 — Kareem hit two skyhooks in the last nine seconds to give the Lakers a 117-116 win over the Atlanta Hawks in Atlanta (The Milwaukee Journal, Dec. 18, 1984).

#12) January 6, 1985 — Kareem hit a 12-foot jump shot at the buzzer for a 99-98 win over San Antonio for their ninth consecutive victory. Abdul-Jabbar led all scorers with 28 and all rebounders with 11 (Ocala Star-Banner, Jan. 7, 1985). “There were four guys surrounding me waiting for the hook, but I used my baseline jumper. We practiced that over the last week and the only time I use it is when I don’t have the hook.”

#13) November 29, 1985 — “Kareem Abdul-Jabbar took an inbounds pass from James Worthy, faked a sky hook and made a 10-foot fallaway jumper over Sonic backup center George Johnson with three seconds left to lift the Lakers to a 108-107 win before a sellout crowd of 17,505 at the Forum” (L.A. Times, Nov. 30, 1985).

#14) 1988 NBA Finals vs. Detroit — Kareem made two free throws with 14 seconds remaining to give LA a 103-102 win and force the series to a seventh and deciding game at the LA Forum.

Finals Performances

1971: Kareem averaged 27 points on 60.5 percent shooting from the floor, 76.2 percent shooting from the line and 63.4 percent true shooting, 18.5 rebounds and 2.8 assists in 42 minutes per game in the 1971 NBA Finals against the Baltimore Bullets, and was Finals Most Valuable Player. He had 31 points on 13-for-16 shooting from the floor and 85.2 percent true shooting and 17 rebounds in a 98-88 Game 1 win, 27 points on 13-for-22 shooting from the floor (59.1%) and 60.2 percent true shooting and 24 rebounds in a 102-83 Game 2, 23 points and 20 rebounds in a 107-99 Game 3 win, and 27 points on 10-for-16 shooting from the floor (62.5%) and 64.8 percent true shooting, 12 rebounds and seven assists in a 118-106 Game 4 win.

1974: Kareem averaged 32.6 points on 52.4 percent shooting from the floor, 70.8 percent shooting from the line and 55.3 percent true shooting, 12.1 rebounds, 5.4 assists and 2.14 blocked shots in a series-high 49.3 minutes per game in the 1974 NBA Finals against the Boston Celtics. He had 35 points, 14 rebounds, five assists and three blocked shots in 46 minutes in Game 1; 36 points, 15 rebounds, six assists and three blocked shots in 53 minutes in a 105-96 Game 2 overtime win; 34 points on 14-for-24 shooting (58.3%), 14 rebounds, six assists and three blocked shots in 48 minutes in a 97-89 Game 4 win at Boston, 37 points, 11 rebounds, six assists and two blocked shots in 48 minutes in Game 5; 34 points on 16-for-26 shooting (61.5%), eight rebounds, six assists and a 15-foot skyhook with three seconds left to give Milwaukee a 102-101 win in overtime in Game 6. He had 26 points, 13 rebounds and four assists in Game 7, but Boston won 102-87.

*As Elliot Kalb noted, Richie Powers reffed Games 1, 3, 5, and 7 of the Finals, all of which Milwwaukee lost. Boston was 0-3 in the games Powers didn't referee.

1980: Kareem averaged 33.4 points on 54.9 percent shooting and 57.8 percent true shooting, 13.6 rebounds, 4.6 blocked shots and 3.2 assists in 40.6 minutes per game. He had 33 points on 14-for-21 shooting (66.7%) and 71.1 percent true shooting, 14 rebounds, six blocked shots and five assists in a 109-102 Game 1 win, 38 points on 19-for-31 shooting from the floor (61.3%), 14 rebounds, three assists, five blocked shots and two steals in a 104-107 Game 2 loss, 33 points, 14 rebounds, four blocked shots and three assists in a 111-101 Game 3 win, and 40 points on 16-for-24 shooting (66.7%) and 71.5 percent true shooting, 15 rebounds and four blocked shots in 41 minutes in a 103-103 Game 5 win after injuring his left ankle in the third quarter.

1985: After having a mere 12 points and three rebounds in a 148-114 Game 1 loss, Kareem rebounded with 30 points on 15-for-26 shooting (57.7%), 17 rebounds, eight assists and three blocked shots in a 109-102 Game 2 win, 26 points on 10-for-13 shooting (76.9%), 14 rebounds, seven assists, two blocks and two steals in a 136-111 Game 3 win, 36 points on 16-for-26 shooting (61.5%), seven rebounds, seven assists and three blocks in a 120-111 Game 5 win, and 29 points on 13-for-21 shooting (61.9%), seven rebounds and four assists in a 111-100 Game 6 win. In the Lakers’ four wins, Abdul-Jabbar averaged 30.3 points on 62.8 percent shooting and 64.7 percent true shooting, 11.3 rebounds, 6.5 assists and 2 blocked shots.


ADVANTAGES ON WILT'S LEDGER

“Though [7 feet 2 inches] tall, Abdul-Jabbar is not a good rebounder. Because of his size, he has done adequately in the statistics, but he could do more” (The Pro Game: The World of Professional Basketball [New York: McGraw-Hill, 1975], p. 47).

Alcindor undoubtedly will grow tougher and heavier, even if he does not grow taller as he grows older. He will become emotionally more secure and technically more efficient, but those who say Lew now is stronger and better coordinated than Chamberlain at a comparable stage, don’t know a weanling from a colt.

Privately the pros laugh at the comparison. Alcindor has a better shot, but is not the rebounder Wilt was. Nor does he possess the versatility of the all-around athlete that Chamberlain did when he was a college youngster. As a freshman in 1956 Wilt possibly could have made the U.S. Olympic team in weight lifting, volley ball or track and field as well as basketball. It isn’t generally known that he was running as first-string end on the Kansas frosh football team until Allen put a stop to it. In inter-frosh track meets conducted by mail, Chamberlain’s distances in the shot were never bettered. He also ran the 440 and could high jump 6-10.

Humbly it is suggested here that basketball will survive Alcindor, just as it did Wilt, who could eat Lew whole at the moment. Let patience be our Tom Thumb rule and give the boy a chance to grow into a man.

Wilt Chamberlain wrote, “Kareem is a fine shooter, with a soft, delicate touch. But he isn’t nearly as good a rebounder as he should be. He’s good, all right, maybe great, but not as great as Nate Thurmond or Bill Russell or a few other guys” (Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door [New York: Macmillan, 1973], p. 34).

In 1969-70, Abdul-Jabbar was third in the league in rebounding (14.5 rpg), behind the 6-foot-9 Elvin Hayes (16.9) and 6-foot-7 Wes Unseld (16.7). In 1970-71 he was fourth (16.0 rpg) behind Wilt Chamberlain (18.2 rpg), Unseld (16.9), and Hayes (16.6). In ’71-72, he was third (16.6 rpg) behind Chamberlain (19.2) and Unseld (17.6). In ’72-73, he was fourth in the league (16.1 rpg) behind Chamberlain (18.6 rpg), the 6-foot-11 Nate Thurmond (17.1 rpg), and the 6-foot-9 inch Dave Cowens (16.2 rpg). In ’73-74 he finished fourth (14.5 rpg) behind Hayes (18.1 rpg), Cowens (15.7 rpg), and the 6-foot-9-inch Bob McAdoo (15.1 rpg). In ’74-75 he finished fifth (14.0 rpg) behind Unseld (14.8 rpg), Cowens (14.7 rpg), 6-foot-10 Sam Lacey (14.2 rpg) and McAdoo (14.1 rpg). In ’75-76 he led the league with 16.9 rpg. In ’76-77 he finished second (13.3 rpg), to Bill Walton (14.4 rpg). In ’77-78 he finished seventh (12.9 rpg) behind 6-foot-7 Truck Robinson (15.7 rpg), 6-foot-10 Moses Malone (15.0 rpg), Cowens (14.0 rpg), Hayes (13.3), 6-foot-11 Swen Nater (13.2), and the 7-foot-2 Artis Gilmore (13.1 rpg). In ’78-79 he finished third behind Malone (17.6 rpg) and the 7-foot Rich Kelley (12.8 rpg). In ’79-80 he finished eighth behind Nater (15.0 rpg), Malone (14.5 rpg), Unseld (13.3 rpg), the 6-foot-11-inch Caldwell Jones (11.9 rpg), 6-foot-11-inch Jack Sikma (11.07 rpg), Hayes (11.06 rpg), and 7-foot Robert Parish (10.9 rpg). In ’80-81 he finished seventh (10.26 rpg) behind Malone (14.8 rpg), Nater (12.4 rpg), 6-foot-8-inch Larry Smith (12.1 rpg), 6-9 Larry Bird (10.9 rpg), Sikma (10.4 rpg), and 6-7 Kenny Carr (10.3 rpg). In 1981-82 he dipped to 8.7 rebounds per game, and never grabbed double-figure rebounds again. His rebound rate was 0.1 above the career rebound rate of Rik Smits (13.3). From 1975-76 on, Abdul-Jabbar steadily declined in rebounding, going from leading the league with 16.9 at 28, to 13.3, 12.9, 12.8, 10.8, 10.3, 8.7, 7.5, and 7.3, yearly decreases of 21.3%, 3.0%, 0.8%, 15.6%, 4.6%, 15.5%, 13.8%, and 2.7%.

Whereas Rodman gets praised for outrebounding bigger players, Kareem was being outrebounded by smaller players, and at the age that he turned into Rik Smits, Chamberlain averaged a league-leading 18.2 rebounds per game in 1970-71, out-rebounding a young Kareem 18.2-16.0 for the regular season, and out-rebounding him 18.8-17.2 head-to-head in the postseason.

Wilt said there were a few other guys Kareem wasn't as good as on the boards. Tim Duncan, who has drawn comparisons to Kareem, was a better rebounder, with 11 seasons with a TRB% over 18, including four seasons over 19%—19.6, 19.4, 19.0, 19.0, 18.9, 18.9, 18.8, 18.7, 18.3, 18.1, 18.0. Shaquille O'Neal was better. As was Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson.

Kareem's three best rebound rates (19.6, 18.9, 18.4) closely resemble those of Rony Seikaly (19.8, 18.6, 18.3). Only Kareem has three more seasons of 18.2, 18.1, 18.1, while Seikaly had two seasons of 17.6 and 17.4 afterwards. Bill Laimbeer turns out to be a better match: his six best rebound rates were 19.7, 18.7, 18.6, 18.3, 18.0, 18.0; Kareem's six best are 19.6, 18.9, 18.4, 18.2, 18.1, 18.1. Laimbeer is the superior offensive rebounder, with six seasons of a high ORB% than Kareem's best (9.2%), while Kareem was the superior peak defensive rebounder, though Laimbeer kept it up longer than Kareem did.

The most similar offensive rebounder to Kareem is Bill Cartwright, with ORB%s of 9.6, 8.8, 8.7, 8.4, 7.8, 7.5, 7.5, 7.4, 7.4, 7.0 to Kareem's 9.2, 8.8, 8.7, 8.0, 7.8, 7.7, 7.6, 7.6, 7.6, 7.6, 7.4, 7.3, 7.3, and 7.2. On the defensive boards, Kareem is comparable to Tyson Chandler: DRB%s of 27.3, 27.0, 26.6, 26.1, 26.1, 24.2, 21.0, 20.5 to Kareem's 30.5, 27.2, 26.8, 26.7, 26.4, 23.9, 22.2, 21.5. Kareem had the highest single season rate of the two, but aside from that, the rest of their DRB%s are similar.

Advantage undoubtably to Wilt. Wilt was a GOAT level rebounder, while Kareem was a Bill Laimbeer-level rebounder overall, a Tyson Chandler-level rebounder on the defensive boards, and a Bill Cartwright-level rebounder on the offensive boards.

Advantage Wilt.

Wilt Chamberlain was an NBA All-Defensive First Team selection in 1971-72 and 1972-73, his final two seasons in the league, while Abdul-Jabbar didn’t make the All-Defensive Team at all. During the time they were both in the league at the same time, Chamberlain had 2 All-Defensive First Team selections to Kareem’s 0 First Team All-Defense selections and 1 Second-Team All Defense selection (Kareem was Second Team All-Defense in ’69-70, but Wilt played 12 games).

In the 1971-72 WCF, Wilt was the Russell to Kareem's Wilt, and as Russell had done to him, so he did to Kareem, and his defensive was pivotal in leading the Lakers to the NBA Finals. In Game 6, Wilt had 22 points on 8-for-12 (66.7%) shooting, 24 rebounds and nine blocked shots—five of them on Kareem, and held Kareem—who had 37 points on 16-for-36 shooting (44.4%), 25 rebounds and eight assists—to 2-for-8 shooting (25%) in the game’s final 10 minutes as the Lakers won 104-100 to advance to the NBA Finals. West scored 12 of his 25 points in the fourth quarter, and Chamberlain nine, as the Lakers came back from a 10-point deficit. TIME magazine wrote: “In the N.B.A.’s western division title series with Milwaukee, he decisively outplayed basketball’s newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior.”

Advantage Wilt.

So far as dominance goes, the NBA record book could be renamed The Wilt Chamberlain Story, despite attempts by the NBA to claim records for other players that they do not in fact have, and which are owned by Wilt.

Advantage Wilt.

Wilt had the size and athleticism advantage.


Both had their negative intangibles. The Lakers floundered until Magic arrived and revitalized the franchise. Kareem won six titles, but had one of the two greatest point guards in NBA history at that point in time for every one. Credit goes to both, Wilt, for buying into Bill Sharman's system, and Kareem for deferring to Magic and not letting ego get in the way of doing what was best for the team in order to win titles.

Wilt met with constant frustration at the hands of Russell and the Celtics (which made him rather defensive with always being compared to Russell), and Kareem had some embarrassing flameouts (e.g, shut down by Thurmond and upset in the first rebound of the '73 playoffs, decimated by Moses Malone on the boards and swept in the '83 Finals).

Would both sides say this is a fair assessment of pros and cons on each side or have anything to add that I've overlooked?

Discuss.

[Fencer reregistered]

Why not just rate him on how good he was at playing basketball?

I prefer to rate guys on how good they are at contributing to the winning of basketball games and most particularly basketball championships (or deep-in-the-playoffs playoff series). Not coordinating your on-court activities well with your teammates doesn't lead to the winning of games.

[Fencer reregistered]

2. Small players have smaller impact on D than on O, so Oscar's advantage on offense is more valuable than West's advantage on defense.

I wouldn't take that for granted. If you can inhibit somebody from scoring, that can be just as useful as if you scored yourself.

[Dr Positivity]

Just adding to your game winners list, Kareem hits the GW in the 1980 Game 5. Game is tied with 35 seconds left and he gets a 3 pt play to crack it open.

That's an impressive list for him - 74 and 80 are Jordan/Shaq-esque Finals stats

[Gongxi]

Okay, well I think we've seen just about hands down the GOAT post regarding Wilt vs. KAJ. No reason to have a project about that. A lot to chew on.

And Fencer, it's really quite impossible to tell how good you are at contributing to winning versus another person without simply looking at how well each player played basketball. Winning is dependent upon a great many more factors (teammates, coaches, GMs, competition, etc) than how you play basketball (all of those factors are much more muted in comparison). The ring ain't at all the thing when it comes to individual players.

[ThaRegul8r]

Just adding to your game winners list, Kareem hits the GW in the 1980 Game 5. Game is tied with 35 seconds left and he gets a 3 pt play to crack it open.

Thank you. I didn't think it was an exhaustive list, but it was what I had up to this point.

[Fencer reregistered]

And Fencer, it's really quite impossible to tell how good you are at contributing to winning versus another person without simply looking at how well each player played basketball. Winning is dependent upon a great many more factors (teammates, coaches, GMs, competition, etc) than how you play basketball (all of those factors are much more muted in comparison). The ring ain't at all the thing when it comes to individual players.

I wasn't saying that rings are dispositive. But I am saying that the opinions of people who were on the court with you, were in the locker room with you, watched you from courtside, etc. matter considerably. A defensive guy who stifles plays before they can get underway is pretty hard to identify except by anecdotal evidence. A guy from before the heavily-televised era, who threw lots of great passes that didn't get counted as official assists, is pretty hard to identify except by anecdotal evidence. A guy who inhibited practice, or who was remarkably successful in encouraging guys to try their best for each other, or who damaged team cohesion, is pretty hard to identify except by anecdotal evidence.

I'm further saying, as was said better earlier, that rings make flaws in your game excusable -- if you won with those flaws, who's to say it wasn't a good choice to leave them in place? Russell played on offense at a place on the court where he was an excellent passer, but a poor scorer. Why does this diminish his greatness to any significant extent?

[NoRoleModel]

Okay, well I think we've seen just about hands down the GOAT post regarding Wilt vs. KAJ. No reason to have a project about that. A lot to chew on.

And Fencer, it's really quite impossible to tell how good you are at contributing to winning versus another person without simply looking at how well each player played basketball. Winning is dependent upon a great many more factors (teammates, coaches, GMs, competition, etc) than how you play basketball (all of those factors are much more muted in comparison). The ring ain't at all the thing when it comes to individual players.

I definitely see your position and won't argue against it too much. However, I do see the value of a player who can fit his game to maximize his team's chances of winning, even at the expense of forgoing some of his strengths and stats. I think the true measure of a basketball player lies somewhere between your definition and Fencer's.

[Doctor MJ]

Oscar Robertson was an angry man. Not in a Michael Jordan, you-suck-too-much-to-be-on-my-team kind of way, but in a I-might-strangle-you-in-a-fit-of-rage kind of way. Growing up where he did, when he did, I don't blame him. But his biography just oozed with rage.

This is pretty much exactly my feeling on the man.

[lorak]

2. Small players have smaller impact on D than on O, so Oscar's advantage on offense is more valuable than West's advantage on defense.

I wouldn't take that for granted. If you can inhibit somebody from scoring, that can be just as useful as if you scored yourself.

In this case offense is more than just scoring. Robertson was anchoring great offenses, just like Russell great defenses. And West never was as good defensively as Kidd (one of the few small players who impacted defense on team level = we could say that he was the most important part of very good defensive teams).

Besides, any examples of West effectively guarding some stars in the playoffs? Really 6-2 player has impressive defensive impact on the game? (Comparable to Robertson's impact on offense?) Really?