RealGM Top 100 #4

[penbeast0]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:
Karl Malone


# 2x NBA MVP (1997, 1999)
# 14x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1989, 1993)
# 11x All-NBA First Team Selection (1988-1999)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986-2000)
# 1x All-NBA Third Team Selectin (2001)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1997-1999)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1988)
# 1986 All-Rookie 1st Team
# Elected to the Basketball HOF in 2010 as a player

Moses Malone

* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)


Julius Erving

NBA Champion (1983)
2× ABA Champion (1974, 1976)
2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1981)
3× ABA Most Valuable Player (1974–1976)
11× NBA All-Star (1977–1987)
5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
5× All-NBA First Team (1978, 1980–1983)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1977, 1984)
4× All-ABA First Team (1973–1976)
All-ABA Second Team (1972)
ABA All-Defensive First Team (1976)
ABA All-Rookie First Team (1972)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
ABA All-Time Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Wilt Chamberlain

* 2x NBA champion (1967, 1972)
* 4x NBA MVP (1960, 1966-1968)
* 13x NBA All-Star (1960-1969, 1971-1973)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1972)
* 7x All-NBA First Team Selection (1960-1962, 1964, 1966-1968)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1963, 1965, 1972)
* 2x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1972-1973)
* 1960 NBA Rookie of the Year
* 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1960)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* NBA 35th Anniversary Team
Magic Johnson


* 5× NBA Champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
* 3× NBA MVP (1987, 1989–1990)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1983–1991)
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1982)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
* 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Larry Bird

# 3x NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
# 3x NBA MVP (1984-1986)
# 12x All-Star (1980-1988, 1990-1992)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
# 9x All-NBA First Team Selection (1980-1988)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1990)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1982-1984)
# 1980 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
# 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1982)
# 3x NBA Three-Point Shootout winner (1986-1988)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Shaquille O'Neal

*4-time NBA Champion
*2000 NBA MVP
*92-'93 NBA Rookie of the Year
*3-time NBA Finals MVP
*3-time All-Star MVP
*14-time All-Star
*7 time All NBA First Team
*2 time All NBA Second Team
*3 time All NBA Third Team
*3 time All NBA Second Defensive Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Tim Duncan

4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)
Hakeem Olajuwon

* 2x NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
* 1x NBA MVP (1994)
* 12x All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
* 2x Finals MVP (1994-1995)
* 2x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
* 6x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
* 3x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
* 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
* 4x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)
* 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Kobe Bryant

5× NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007)
9× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)

[penbeast0]

Vote Wilt Chamberlain
Nominate Jerry West

Just a reminder, Wilt didn't have trouble dominating every center he played except Bill Russell who was the GOAT center and GOAT defensive force in this survey. In fact he was .500 or greater in playoff series against every other top team, including Kareem (tie), Nate Thurmond, Zelmo Beat, Willis Reed, etc.

Against Russell he was 1-7
HOF Dolph Schayes 2-1
Zelmo Beaty 3-0
Jerry Lucas 3-0 (F/C with Embry/Dierking/Jackson)
Nate Thurmond 2-0
Walt Bellamy 1-0
Willis Reed 2-1 (one year Reed played PF)
Tom Boerwinkle 2-0
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1-1

He had a winning record against every center he faced in the playoffs except Russell and Jabbar and he split 2 series with Jabbar. You could say Wilt had trouble facing top centers in the playoffs or you could just say he had trouble with Russell; the rest of the time his results look better than any other center you could name post Mikan (compare to Jabbar, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, DRob, Ewing, Thurmond, Dwight, etc.)

v. Russell 1-7
v. Everyone Else 16-3
Wilt wasn't a choker, Russell was just the best. Wilt dominated his league and virtually every statistical chart too.
.

[Black Feet]

Agree with penbeast0

Vote - Wilt
Nominate - The Logo

[GilmoreFan]

As I noted in the previous thread, I think this comes down to 3 guys for me: Wilt, Magic and Duncan. I'm actually not sure which way I'm going to vote yet, but after thinking about it and looking over more of the stats I'm leaning increasingly to Duncan. Others will make the case for Magic and Wilt, so I'll make the pro-Duncan case here:

The case for Tim Duncan.

With the problematic Russell now voted in, the 4th place comes down to 3 guys for me; Wilt, Magic and Duncan. Everyone knows the case for Wilt, and many people will be making the pro-Magic case, indeed some people will probably be making a pro-Shaq case. This means it falls to someone to give the case for Duncan, who I think deserves serious consideration at 4, and is a very strong choice for 5 or 6. So let’s look as concisely as we can at the arguments for Tim Duncan over Magic and Wilt (and Shaq).

Has a perfect record

I saw people emphasising how Bill Russell “won when he was supposed to, as well as when he wasn’t supposed to”, but that is even more true of Tim Duncan, whose impact over his career has been simply staggering. Over the last 14 years he has carried the Spurs to an average win record of 57.4 wins (99 has been pro-rated obviously). In his 10 year prime (ending after 07) he never once lost in the playoffs to a team he was supposed to beat.
98- rookie, everyone gives you a pass when you don’t win the title (good for top 5 in the MVP vote, and was already on the all-nba 1st team, which he made the next 8 years, and again in 07).
99- Wins championship in dominant fashion as teams best player.
00- injured for playofs
01- loses to prime Shaq and Kobe
02- loses to prime Shaq and Kobe
03- Wins championship (beats prime Shaq and Kobe with garbage team)
04- injures foot in the regular season (teams goes 50-16 while healthy), despite incredible would be game winning shot he loses to prime Shaq and Kobe (and Karl Malone), and a shot that probably wouldn’t be counted today since there is no physical way to catch and release a ball in 0.4 seconds, and had the timer been started the moment Fisher touched it, it wouldn’t have counted). If Duncan doesn’t miss 16 games this year, he wins his 3rd MVP in a row.
05- Wins championship
06- loses to the excellent Dirk Mavs in 7 games, but take a look at the ridiculous stats he put up this series. Duncan carried them to a boneheaded foul away from winning, this loss is on Parker and Manu.
07- Wins championship
After that Tim isn’t in his prime, though he still continues to have excellent performances, only going down in 08 to the much more stacked Lakers. His per 36 numbers are eerily similar, despite the drop off from his prime, particularly his mobility and defence, which doesn’t show up on paper as much.

There are just no examples of blatant failures like we can see for Magic (81, 86, 90 all stand out as very disappointing outcomes), Wilt everyone knows about, and Shaq has too many to name.

Impact is absurd. Can succeed with a star who also plays inside, or trash, or all-stars who handle the ball alot

What’s impressive is how he was able to succeed with often garbage teams. Sure, in some years like 05 or 07 or 99 he has an excellent support cast. But try looking at years like 2002 or 2003, and you begin to see an impact that is rivalled by only a handful of players in history.

2002- worst 58 win support cast in history

In 2002 Duncan somehow carried a trash team to 58 wins and a 2nd round appearance, where they lost 4-1 to the Lakers with prime Shaq and Kobe. For all people (rightly) are impressed by Lebron in 09 or 10, what Duncan did in this year is possibly more impressive. His help was almost non-existent. D.Rob was a shell of himself in 2002, especially in the playoffs, where he played 4/10 games and played for only 20mpg, which resulted in 4.5ppg and 5.8rpg, and in the Spurs only win against the Lakers in that series D.Rob didn't even play. He didn't play for games 1 or 2 either, where the Spurs only lost by 6 and 3 points. The idea D.Rob was a factor of any significance is nonsense. The closing game he put up 0-3-4 (4 fouls).

Duncan had starters like the corpse of Steve Smith (out of the NBA right after), least intelligent player in the NBA A.Daniels, 35 yr old Dan Ferry's skeleton, fell out of the NBA afterwards Charles Smith, and 59 games of a Bowen who didn't know how to shoot in the Spurs system yet (seriously, look up his shooting, it was horrendous that year, he literally had zero offence). Parker was as raw as his rookie numbers show, and that’s pretty frickin raw. I’ve seen people astoundingly claim D.Rob was an all-star this year, but it’s utter nonsense, he was really washed up at this point in his career. There’s a reason he didn’t make the all-star team (he lost to Wally World!), didn’t make an all-defensive team (something even old man Mutumbo did this year), hadn’t made one in years in fact. I don’t think people realise just how bad this team was. To give you an idea I want to highlight one particular event which helps give you an idea of how sucky this team was without him. In the 2002 playoffs against the Sonics, Duncan’s father died causing him to miss a game. In the game that Duncan missed, the Sonics killed the Spurs, and were up at halftime by 57-31. Once Duncan returned the next game, the result was very different as Duncan led the Spurs to a lead of 55-26 at the half. It’s a stark contrast.

2003... greatest over-achievement season of all-time?

In 2003 Parker was so raw, a little known energy player named Speedy Claxton stole his minutes in the playoffs.

Malik was an undersized, unathletic, often overweight, energy guy off the bench who started a mere 85 games in his 813 game career (44 of those starts for the Isiah Knicks). He was a sucktaculous player frequently. When the Spurs gave him a $42mill/7 year contract to entice Tim to stay (because they were best friends) they were roundly condemned for massively overpaying. Thankfully for the Spurs, Isiah took his contract on.

D.Rob was a shell in 2003. He played 64 games for 26mpg and put up 8.5 and 7.9, playing like a stiff alot of the time. He was worse in the playoffs. Much worse. In game 4 he actually had more turnovers than points (1-0), and twice as many fouls as rebounds (6-3). He was a non-factor that series almost. In game 2 he played 17 minutes for a pitiful 4 points, 4 boards and 4 fouls. The Spurs won by 19 anyway. In game 3 when the result was reversed D.Rob was again a non-factor, 15 minutes for 4 points and 4 boards from 1-3 shooting. In game 4 D.Rob played 14 minutes, posting 6 fouls, 0 points and 3 boards. The next game 6 & 7 on 3/7 shooting, and the deciding game 7-5. The only decent game he had was game 1. D.Rob was basically a non-factor in the playoffs (and regular season generally) for a similar ratio. He'd have one solid game, then a 5 duds. Someone who is solid 1/6 games and pitiful the rest is not a desirable big man. Especially not when he misses games and can't physically play for more than 26mpg.

Manu played 20mpg for a reason, he was incredibly raw and all over the place. He shot poorly, he caused turnovers. S.Jax was such a rising star the best offer he got in the offseason was $1mill per year from the Hawks. The Spurs had offered a 3 year deal starting at $1.4 mill, but he turned it down. Nobody saw S.Jax as any kind of star in 2003, and while he later rose to the heights of MLE player (and then "overpaid GSW player") that was some years off. Bowen was a good defender, and a terrible offensive player. Teams understood his flaws, which is probably why they never offered him a big pay day to come play for them. He earnt over $4mill I think once in his career (barely). He was a very hard player to utilise, because he had no offence at all, no handles, no passing, just defence and the ability to hit a wide open corner 3. Without TD there to suck in defenders, Bowen becomes a huge liability.

Smith and Ferry were washed out. There is no shortage of bench bums who can hit 3's, but the reason they ride the pine is because they suck holistically as players, and such was true of Ferry and Smith in 2003.

1/15 ESPN analysts picked them to win the title in 03. Nobody really gave them a hope in hell. Duncan taking these guys to the title over prime Shaq and Kobe might be the greatest single man effort in the history of the NBA playoffs. I hear a lot of people whine that Horry let the team down in the playoffs to explain away the loss. I have 3 responses to that:
1) You shouldn’t be relying on a bench player to bail you out when you have prime frickin Shaq and Kobe
2) A lot of the reason Horry played so bad was because he was being guarded by Duncan. Not all the reason, but it’s strange people draw a disconnect between Horry playing badly, and Duncan guarding him a lot. Most importantly though,
3) Horry’s shooting actually had very little impact on the outcome. Taking a look at the numbers it's hard to see the argument that Horry's cold shooting (partly induced by good defence) was the decisive failure down the stretch. In the games the Spurs won Horry was 0-3 (Spurs win by 5), 0-2 (Spurs win by 19), 0-6 (Spurs win by 2), 0-2 (Spurs win by 28). The only one of those games it would have made an obvious difference in is game 5 (I think it's unrealistic to expect Horry to shoot 2-3 with Duncan guarding him most of the game), and I think a much bigger factor in that game was Kobe taking an incredible 31 shots (for sub-500 shooting), rather than lobbing it downlow to Shaq (though he took 38 shots in the game 1 loss... 38!) The Lakers bench in particular shot well that game. I can point to any game and say "if player X shoots better, they win", indeed should I cry about S.Jax, who didn't hit a 3 except in game 4 (which the Spurs lost), the rest of the series he was 0-10! Full credit to Tim, he really carried the Spurs that series.

Great all around player, no holes in his game like Magic

Everyone knows Duncan was jobbed for DPOY multiple times because he didn’t post gaudy stats or have his coaches lobby for him, he’s even better than all those defensive teams suggest. As a defender you can build your whole defence around him, and ask him to anchor it, even when your team is otherwise bad defensively. There’s a reason he led all those Spurs teams to great defensive ratings and records for so many years. He’s more valuable than Shaq on defence by a good way, not least of all because of the consistency and effort.

Offensively too he’s basically flawless in his prime as a post player, even having range like his bank shot. Players who would have minimal value like Bonner or Bowen or washed out Steve Smith can have value on his team because he sucks in the defenders down low, and creates so many open shots. In fact the Spurs pretty much ran every play through him back in 02 and 03 when the team was weak, where the plays would involve giving him the ball, and giving the opposing team 2 bad options. Double Duncan and create an overlap, which would give his shooters space, or give him single man coverage, in which case he was almost certain to score (especially peak Duncan). And it worked, his impact was so incredible he was always able to win when he was supposed to, and other times when he was not. He has good longevity too.

I don’t think Shaq compares because of the inconsistency of effort over his career, which is the main reason the result of his career was so disappointing. Shaq should have been a top 3 player ever, but he didn’t put the effort in and too many years lost when he should have easily won a title (03, 04, 99, etc). On defence Shaq could have been a DPOY candidate, but he was often lazy on this end too. He was still awesome of course, but based on the career he actually had his impact was considerably less than Duncan.

Do Magic and Wilt give you enough to justify taking them over Duncan? I’m just not sure anymore, it seems to me Duncan has a bigger impact than Magic in a lot of ways. It’s not as pretty, but it’s damn effective. All the intangibles for him are excellent too.

Imagine Duncan had the same help Shaq had from 98-07. How many titles does he win? Probably no fewer than 8, and as many as 10. Heck, put Duncan on Shaq's teams from 98-11 and they'd probably win 10-12 easy. Duncan wouldn't be the best player on the team in 2010 or 2011 (probably), but otherwise he would be. Indeed, is there a plausible argument for him not winning every title from 99 through to 2011? Maybe you could make the argument for a few years, but I'm not seeing it.

[rrravenred]

Torn. Before the last thread, I would have had Wilt comfortably here, but Dr MJ's statement that Wilt is outside his top ten really gives me pause for thought. The other three I'm considering here (Magic, Bird, Duncan, with Shaq as a remote possibility) all have their own strengths and caveats, but I wasn't expecting to consider them at 4.

I'll wait to see the arguments posted first before I decide.

West, OTOH, is my nomiation, in a hair's breadth from Oscar.

[GilmoreFan]

Yeh, my nomination is going to be either Lebron or KG, depending which way the wind is blowing.

[shawngoat23]

Vote: Wilt Chamberlain
Nominate: Jerry West

[Dr Positivity]

Playing elimination...

Bird: As I suspect most of us will, I put Magic over him. Got the edge in the 87 rubber match and has more years. It's a minor advantage, but it's pretty undeniable.

Wilt: I have Shaq over him unless someone can convince me otherwise. Shaq is the evolutionary Wilt as the 'omigod how do i guard this guy' massive C, with leaving some leadership qualities on the table - and Shaq impresses me more in the playoffs. There is a clear cut reason Shaq has 4 titles and Wilt has 2: Shaq took it to another level when it mattered and locked down a 3peat once he had the most talent. Wilt probably should've 3peated from 67-69... but laid an egg in 68 and 69. More than that, I trust Shaq more in the playoffs. He's ready to go, and probably too happy go lucky and dumb to overthink the situation like Wilt or David Robinson or Lebron. It's enough to separate them for me

So that leaves Magic, Shaq, Duncan. I'm going to leave my vote for later cause I can't decide at all

[Dr Positivity]

Has a perfect record

I agree with most of your post, but I wouldn't call his record perfect. 2004 he had some shaky games as LA erased that lead. 01 and 02 Lakers going 4-0 and 4-1 on them isn't great. As for the Dallas series, he played fine, but he and Dirk have always been a "neither of us can guard each other" thing. All in all, I'd say losing to the 2006 Mavericks can't be described a completely forgiveable blemish

[Fencer reregistered]

I'm not going to give the #4 slot to somebody of whom we say "He should have tried harder" or "He should have been less selfish" or "He didn't train hard (by the standards of his times)" or "He interfered with practice" -- not so long as Magic, Bird, or Duncan are still on the board, with their accomplishments that no other candidate beat by much. Hence, no Wilt and no Shaq for me.

Bird and Magic's teams were very close in quality, so it would be convenient to look at their teammates. Unfortunately, that would be a very long discussion -- how do you rate the aged version of #3 on our list, plus Worthy, plus a bunch of high-quality non-All-Stars (one of whom even won DPOY), vs. McHale, Parish, DJ, borderline all-star Ainge, and some other good pieces?

I'd say the ways Bird was great in scoring and passing were more diverse than the ways Magic was great in passing. Also, while his 2nd-team All-NBA defense awards are unconvincing, they at least suggest he can be placed ahead of Magic in that area. So as per the other thread, I'm inclined to put Bird's peak over Magic's. Bird also gets the intangibles edge, in that Magic had a brief period of bad intangibles early in his career, and Bird never did. On the other hand, Magic clearly wins in longevity-of-utter-greatness.

Also, Magic was the more tranformational player. The idea that you really want a PG controlling your offense was established through him, a few prior examples -- Cousy! -- notwithstanding. And it was established firmly enough to survive the fact that Phil Jackson teams have won almost half the intervening championships without one.

Magic over Bird, but it's close.

As for Duncan -- I just don't get that feeling of transcendent greatness. So I'll put him below the other guys with resumes truly comparable to his.

Magic over Bird over Duncan over everybody else.

As for the next nominee, I first proposed Jerry West three votes ago. The Logo is literally iconic. His heart was unsurpassed among great players, except perhaps by Russell, Jordan, and Bird, all of whom will be on the list well ahead of him. He had a very strong run in the MVP voting. He should be one of the guys on the list after the top 9 are taken care of. (So should Oscar, but we can add him soon.)

Magic Johnson for #4.
Jerry West for the rolling list of 10 candidates.

[Wavy Q]

Vote for Magic, I dont highly value Wilt's accomplishments, and I also believe that Magic was more valuable than Bird

Nomiate Jerry West

[Dr Positivity]

From last thread

These are West's Finals pts totals if anyone's wondering, from http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1963.htm Has FGs and not FGA most years, so hard to get FG% but looks like he shot great except for 65 and 72

62 - (can't find boxscore)
63 - 28, 25, 42, 18, 32, 32 (average: 29.5ppg)
65 - 26, 45, 43, 22, 33 (average: 33.8ppg)
66 - 41, 18, 34, 45, 31, 32, 36 (average: 33.9ppg)
68 - 25, 35, 33, 38, 35, 22 (average: 31.3ppg)
69 - 53, 41, 24, 40, 39, 26, 42 (average: 37.8ppg)
70 - 33, 34, 34, 37, 20, 33, 28 (average: 31.2ppg)
72 - 12, 15, 21, 28, 23, (average: 19.8ppg)
73 - 24, 32, 31, 23, 12, (average: 22.2ppg)

And these came against one of the greatest defensive teams ever literally every Finals. He balled and it really proves, how the rings argument can falter. West led awesome teams who made the Finals every year and then he kicked ass in the Finals, but just kept losing close. In what would should Kobe's 2010 title be more valued than one of West's huge Finals.. I don't know. The guy is basically MJ in the Finals with all those 30, 40 pt+ games and huge averages

West was a bad man in the Finals/playoffs. As far as I'm concerned going 1 for 9 in the Finals instead of 3 or 4 for 9 means very little. His team was good enough, he raised his game, and he just ran into some epic Celtics and Knicks teams. I'm shocked Karl Malone got in before him and Oscar with Karl's instances of shrinkage (though I'm sure the real argument for that will come later)

[GilmoreFan]

In 2004 he was on a grossly inferior team, and had Karl Malone and Shaq guarding him, and often able to double him. Especially because with no 2nd star Duncan badly needed the shooters to play well, to prevent the Lakers keying in on him defensively. Instead the Spurs were very average, shooting 306. including an awful 3-24 in the closing game which was the key cause for the teams loss, or 6-23 in a one point loss in game 5. If the Spurs win that game 5 they probably win the series anyway. Unlike Horry in 03 (which I went over game by game) the Spurs shooting was fatal this year. As for Duncan, his performance over the series was excellent: 20.66ppg, 12.5rpg, 3.66apg, 1spg, 1.66bpg, while shooting 472. from the field, and hitting that ridiculous should have been winning shot in game 5 (where he was double teamed by Shaq on the play). If he had some help, his numbers would look even better.

In 01 and 02 Duncan's team was totally outmatched. What on earth could be expected of him. Duncan kept the games close at least, while broken down D.Rob was almost non-existent in the 02 playoffs (literally, I posted numbers on this) and was manhandled in 01.

As for the Mavs in 06, several key things to note:
1) Tim had a minor foot injury, but let's ignore that
2) The series went to 7 games, and if not for a Manu screw-up in the last seconds of an OT game 7, the Spurs win. If Manu and Parker play better, the Spurs win.
3) The Mavs had a better support cast for Dirk, a deeper one too, and
4) Duncan played awesome that series. He posted 32.28ppg over the series, 11.57rpg, 3.7apg, 1spg, 2.57bpg and shot a stellar 555. FG%. He couldn't have played better.

[An Unbiased Fan]

This is a REALLY hard pick for me.

If you look at the best players from each decade, you can see that 3 are gone, and 3 are left.

50' - Mikan
60's - Russell #2
70's - KAJ #3
80's - Magic
90's - MJ #1
00's - Kobe

Mikan gets downgraded some due to era. I already have Magic over Bird, and Kobe over Duncan. Wilt & Shaq are both kinda in the same boat for me, not sure who I rank higher between the 2. Hakeem, Malone, and Dr. J are on the bottom tier.

Since both Bird & Duncan are behind players on my list, that leaves Magic, Kobe, Wilt, Shaq. Which sets up two questions for me, who's the greatest Laker...Magic or Kobe. And who was better Wilt or Shaq.

Funny enough, Magic was the player I grew up on. But after watching both players for most of their careers, I think I Kobe is the better player. He's the greatest scorer of his era, the greatest perimeter defender of his era, he's right there with Duncan for the most accoaldes of his era, and led his team to the most playoff success of his era. Kobe's peak(06'-10') consisted of 5 straight years of both All-NBA/All-D 1st teams, 2.731 MVP shares, 2 scoring titles, 2 rings, 2 Finals MVP, 4 40+ PPG months(only he and Wilt 40 years beforeever had more than 1), 45 40-point games, 19 50-point games, 5 60-point games(2nd most in history just in those 5 years), and in the playoffs posted 30ppg/6rpg/5apg on 58.3% TS mostly in a tough Western Conference.

It's tough to guage because Magic & Kobe had nearly the same playoff success in their prime years. Magic is the greatest PG ever, and perhaps the greatest offensive player ever. I thought Magic would be my #4 yesterday, but how can I put him above Kobe when I think Kobe is the greatest Laker.

As for Wilt & Shaq. I'm leaning towards Wilt, because he led the league in rpg 11 of 13 years(over Russell), and obviously domianted the scoring charts. Shaq never led the league in rebound or blocks, and never made All-D 1st team, which is confusing for a guy who called himself the MDE, and who was playing in the weakest era for centers ever.

[Dr Positivity]

Duncan shot 4 for 14, 5 for 13, and 7 for 18 in Games 3, 4, 6 + 6 TOVs in Game 3 and 7 in Game 6. It doesn't mean that much, everyone who plays that many playoff games is bound to throw up bad nights, many of which forgotten in Ws (such as Magic's 4 for 14, 10 TOV quad double in Game 5 of the 1980 series or Shaq putting up just 17 and 18 pts in Games 6 and 7 against Portland, and particularly taking 9 shots total in the G7, which would've been a Lebron/Wilt like historical beatdown for him if Portland hits anything that 4th quarter)

But I'd hesitate on perfect record when he lost to the Mavs and flawed 04 Lakers. Spurs didn't win every time Duncan had the better team IMO which is how I would define perfect record.

[An Unbiased Fan]

In 2004 he was on a grossly inferior team, and had Karl Malone and Shaq guarding him, and often able to double him.

HUH? The Spurs had the better record, how were they "grossly inferior"? Parker added 50 points in the 2 games they won. They were up 2-0.

In game 3 TD goes 4-14 and scores a whopping 10 points.

In game 4 TD goes 5-13 and scores 19 points. Meanwhile...Kobe flys in from Colorado right before the game, and dropps 42.

In game 6 of the closeout, TD goes 7-18 and scores 20.

Are you really saying a 40-year old Malone shutdown Duncan?

[GilmoreFan]

That's right, unbiased fan is about to step over that magical line which is the difference between "maybe it'll all make sense in the end" and "what on earth is he thinking?!" and vote Kobe Bryant, who was never even the best player for a single year he played (see RPOY project), who was clearly inferior to other players during his own career (Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, KG, etc) as the #3 of all time (I say #3 because I'm pretty sure he doesn't have Russell ahead of Kobe either). ROFL!

At to Mustafa... you say "Spurs didn't win every time Duncan had the better team IMO which is how I would define perfect record"... but the Lakers had the better team in 04! They had prime Shaq and Kobe, and even a still excellent Karl Malone. The Mavs had the better support cast in 06 too. Take out Dirk and Duncan, which team wins more games. It's the Mavs. I realise it's now in vogue to hate on some of these guys, but while Josh Howard is now a washed out headcase, he was also an all-star once, and an excellent player. Jason Terry isn't Tony Parker, but he's close. Devin Harris wasn't an all-star yet, but he was an excellent player for the Mavs, whose stats and minutes were decreased by playing on a deep team. Dampier was one of the better centers in the NBA, Diop had a career year in 06, Stackhouse was an excellent bench player, KVH was a good bench guy, and they actually performed well too.

Take a look at the Spurs starting line-up for game 7- Duncan, Bowen, Finley, Parker, Manu. It's not an error. The Spurs match up situation was so dire they had to start SF's as their big men. The only big guy off the bench was 9 minutes of Robert Horry. While I think the Spurs had the best 2 Robins by a modest margin, overall the Mavs team was much better balanced, and more talented. The same problem is visible in game 6 (except for 27 seconds of Oberto), game 5, game 4 (except for 1 second of Rasho), and well most of the series. The reason the Spurs weren't playing Oberto, Nazr and Rasho is because they were trash, and hopelessly outmatched.

[GilmoreFan]

Ugh, "unbiased fan". Of course Malone didn't shut down Duncan, if you actually read my posts you'd know that wasn't what was being said.

And the # of regular season wins doesn't necessarily indicate who the better team is. The Lakers, much like many past champs, were coasting in the regular season (they had injuries too), and waiting to ramp it up in the regular season. It's like saying the Bulls and Spurs were the favourites to win it all this year, because they had the best overall records. absurd.

[An Unbiased Fan]

That's right, unbiased fan is about to step over that magical line which is the difference between "maybe it'll all make sense in the end" and "what on earth is he thinking?!" and vote Kobe Bryant, who was never even the best player for a single year he played (see RPOY project), who was clearly inferior to other players during his own career (Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, KG, etc) as the #3 of all time. ROFL!

1) We're on #4, not #3.

2) Where did I say I was voting for Kobe.

I laid out some thoughts on how the current group compares, but I'm far from being definite on any choice.

[GilmoreFan]

See edit above.