RealGM Top 100 #4

[GilmoreFan]

So after Wilt makes it, next on the list is Ewing right Warspite? Like prime Shaq... but better.

Btw, I know people can change their minds, but didn't you have Duncan ahead of Wilt on your top 10 during the nomination process Warspite?

[ronnymac2]

This isn't about how Shaq underachieved relative to his potential. Like you said, it's how they actually played. I'm not positing that Shaq was almighty during his prime or that he was unstoppable. I will not posit that opinion at any point in this thread.


But everybody needs to stop being so enamored by what they think (rightfully or wrongfully) Shaq could have been. Blasting him because you think he could have done better (which he may or may not have been able to do, but let's go on that premise since I believe it is reasonable) is the same thing as thinking he was impossible to stop for 15 years straight. It's the same thing. It's two sides of the same coin.

I'm going to go over exactly what he did. And I'm going to ask for people to forget about Shaq's hype pre-NBA and legacy post-NBA until I'm done doing that. Just erase any pre-conceived notions regarding the player, good or bad.

I want the same ends as you do- for everybody to merely look at what the individual player did.

If I'm a professional hot dog eater and I down 80 hot dogs ("Wilt"-ing Joey Chestnut in the process) without training and it's 20 more than anybody else in the competition, I still win, even if they do tests on me later scientifically proving that if I worked at it as hard as my fellow competitors, I could have eaten 100. The fact is, I still got the golden weiner.

Again, I'm going to ask people to simply look at the actual results.

[ThaRegul8r]

Wilt: I have Shaq over him unless someone can convince me otherwise. Shaq is the evolutionary Wilt as the 'omigod how do i guard this guy' massive C, with leaving some leadership qualities on the table - and Shaq impresses me more in the playoffs. There is a clear cut reason Shaq has 4 titles and Wilt has 2: Shaq took it to another level when it mattered and locked down a 3peat once he had the most talent. Wilt probably should've 3peated from 67-69... but laid an egg in 68 and 69. More than that, I trust Shaq more in the playoffs. He's ready to go, and probably too happy go lucky and dumb to overthink the situation like Wilt or David Robinson or Lebron. It's enough to separate them for me

Okay, here's the case for Shaq:

O’Neal took three different franchises to the NBA Finals (Orlando, Los Angeles, Miami), making six Finals appearances, averaging 28.8 points on 60.2 percent shooting, 13.1 rebounds, 3.4 assists and 2.07 blocked shots in 42.2 minutes per game in 30 Finals games. In the 1992-93 season, he took an Orlando Magic team that was 21-61 the previous year to a 41-41 record, and in three years took them to their first NBA Finals appearance in only the fifth year of their existence. He joined the Lakers, taking them from 48-34 to 53-29, and four NBA Finals appearances and three NBA titles in eight years. He then joined a Miami team that was 42-40 and took them to an Eastern Conference-best 59-23 record. A season later, they won their first NBA title in franchise history.

O’Neal retired as the fourth-most prolific scorer in NBA playoff history with 5,250 points, trailing only Michael Jordan (5,987), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (5,762), and Kobe Bryant (5,280) and with the nineteenth-highest scoring average at 24.3 ppg. He ranks third in postseason rebounds (2,508) behind Russell (4,104) and Chamberlain (3,913), third in blocked shots (459) behind Kareem (476) and Hakeem Olajuwon (472), third in field goals made (2,041) behind Kareem (2,356) and Jordan (2,188), fifth in field goals attempted (3,627) behind Jordan (4,497), Abdul-Jabbar (4,422) and Bryant (4,198), and fifth in field-goal percentage (.563) behind Dwight Howard (.600), Kurt Rambis (.574), Otis Thope (.569) and Mark West (.566). O’Neal averaged 32.6 points on 60.1 percent shooting (59.7% TS), 13.8 rebounds, 3.6 assists and 2.38 blocked shots in 44.0 minutes in the NBA Finals with the Magic and the Lakers, 33.6 points on 60.2 percent shooting, 14.1 rebounds, 3.1 assists and 2.35 blocked shots in 43.9 minutes in four NBA Finals with the Lakers, and 35.9 points on 59.5 percent shooting (59.1% TS), 15.2 rebounds, 3.5 assists and 2.93 blocked shots in 44.3 minutes per game during the three-peat.

This is could be said to separate O’Neal from Chamberlain.

In 1993, Chamberlain was interviewed by Roy Firestone:

Roy Firestone: Shaq. They are saying he’s the new Wilt. That he may be, before it’s over, greater than Wilt.

Wilt Chamberlain: He is worthy of all the accolades.

Firestone: Okay.

Chamberlain: And he sh—

Firestone (interrupting): So you think he’s going to be another Wilt—maybe better than you.

Chamberlain: Maybe, yeah. I think, I think—

Firestone (interrupting): You do?

Chamberlain: Yeah, ’cause he’s already doin’ some things that I’ve never done. First of all—

Firestone: Wait a minute!

Chamberlain: Yeah.

Firestone: Wait a minute, I, I gotta stop you here, Wilt, hold the phone here. You’re tellin’ me—Wilt Chamberlain is tellin’ me—that he thinks someone is gonna be better than he is,

Chamberlain: Mmm. (nods)

Firestone: Right now you think that he’s got all the potential to be better than you.

Chamberlain: Yeah.

Firestone: You’re saying that?

Chamberlain: Yeah. I’m sayin’ that because he already has a drive in an area that I didn’t have.

Firestone: Which is?

Chamberlain: Goin’ to the basket. Uh, durin’ my career—and mainly in my early days when I was scorin’ all those points—I-I had this thing in my head that I wanted to show people I was a complete basketball player. Y’ understand? And by doing that I developed the fadeaway jump shot, and the fingerroll and the hook shot, and all the tools that on offense basketball players had. When maybe... Wilt Chamberlain should’ve been goin’ to the basket and breaking guys’ hands off, y’ understand? And that would’ve made me... even more devastating. He’s doin’ that already.

Firestone: Maybe I should read something else that what you’re saying. Maybe this is a thin way of saying—a thinly-veiled way of saying—that Shaq isn’t a complete player.

Chamberlain: Well of course that, but the man’s only twenty, twenty years old.

“Most of Wilt’s dunks weren’t scary,” said Tom Meschery. “He would gently fingerroll the ball in, just a little flick of the wrist and the ball gently dropped through the rim” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA, in the Words of the Men Who Played, Coached, and Built Pro Basketball [New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992] p. 238).

“I […] believe he was sometimes embarrassed by his own strength,” said Norm Drucker. “That was why he didn’t like to dunk the ball hard—he’d rather take his fallaway jumper or his finger roll. He didn’t want to be known as a seven-foot giant, but as a basketball player with basketball skills” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 238).

“People tried to diminish what Wilt accomplished by saying he was so big, so he could score 50 a night,” said Leonard Koppett. “But that was taking away from his ability and his dignity, and I think that also was why he didn’t dunk as often as you’d have thought he would” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, pp. 238-39).

“Wilt wanted to be the greatest basketball player ever,” said Nate Thurmond. “That’s why he developed the fadeaway. It was a difficult, highly skilled shot” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 233).

Shaq didn't care how he was perceived; he used his size and strength to his advantage. His nickname was "The Diesel." That should tell you all you need to know about his approach.

Here's my counterargument. I wrote this a long time ago:

Rebounding and defense. Despite being the most physically imposing player in NBA history, O’Neal has never led the league in rebounding. Chamberlain led the league in rebounding a record 11 times (1959-60—’62-63, ’65-66—’68-69, ’70-71—’72-73). Looking at other all-time great centers, Russell led the league in rebounding four times (1957-58, ’58-59, ’63-64, ’64-65), Abdul-Jabbar led the league once (1975-76), Olajuwon led the league twice (1988-89, ’89-90). Shaq is the only one of the GOAT center candidates who never once led the league in rebounding. Looking at centers below him on the all-time list, David Robinson led the league in rebounding once (1990-91). Moses Malone six times (1978-79, 1980-81—'84-85). George Mikan led the league in rebounding (1952-53). Even injury-riddled Bill Walton led the league in rebounding once (1976-77). Looking at ESPN's list of Greatest Centers of All Time, you have to go down to Patrick Ewing listed at #10 to finally come across an all-time great center who never led the league in rebounding at any point in his career. Shaq is the clear anomaly.

Shaq never led the league in blocked shots either. Olajuwon led the league in blocks three times (’89-90 [4.59 bpg], ’90-91 [3.95 bpg], ’92-93 [4.17 bpg]), Abdul-Jabbar led the league four times (1974-75, ’75-76 [4.12 bpg, over a block a game more than second-place Elmore Smith], ’78-79 [3.95 bpg], ’79-80), and blocks weren’t recorded for Chamberlain and Russell, but referee Earl Strom said, “Wilt and Russell were getting 8-10 blocks a game for most of their careers” (Tall Tales p. 346). Again, Shaq is the odd man out. Bill Walton led in blocks in 1976-77. David Robinson led in 1991-92. Shaq’s career highs in rebounding (13.9) and blocked shots (3.53) both came in his first year in the league, and he declined every year after that.

The NBA All-Defensive Teams didn’t come into existence until the 1968-69 season. Chamberlain was First Team All-Defense in 1971-72 and ’72-73 at 35 and 36 years old ahead of a 30- and 31-year-old Nate Thurmond, one of the greatest defensive centers of all time. He was the best defensive center in the league at 35 and 36 years old.

O’Neal was never First Team All-Defense, making Second Team All-Defense in 1999-2000 behind Alonzo Mourning, in 2000-01 behind Dikembe Mutombo, and in 2002-03 behind Ben Wallace.

Looking at other great centers, Olajuwon was a five-time NBA All-Defensive First Teamer (1987, ’88, ’90, ’93, ’94) and two-time Defensive Player of the Year. Abdul-Jabbar was a five-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection. Russell was an NBA All-Defensive First Teamer in the first year of its existence. David Robinson, another contemporary of O’Neal’s, led the league in rebounding in 1990-91 (13.0 rpg), led the league in blocked shots in ’91-92 (4.49 bpg), was a four-time NBA All-Defensive First Teamer (1990-91, ’91-92, ’94-95, ’95-96), and 1991-92 Defensive Player of the Year.

Once again, Shaq is the sore thumb standing out, who never gave the commitment to rebounding and defense as the other greats. And yet we're left wondering what could have been:

In the 1999-2000 season, Shaq grabbed 13.6 rebounds (2nd in the league [behind Dikembe Mutombo (14.1)], second-highest of his career), blocked 3.03 shots per game (3rd in league, second-highest of his career), led the league in defensive win shares (a career-best 7.0), and finished second in the Defensive Player of the Year voting to Alonzo Mourning, anchoring a Los Angeles Lakers defense that led the league in opponents’ field goal percentage (41.6%), defensive efficiency (95.6 points allowed per 100 possessions) and defensive rebounds (2,738), and ranked sixth in fewest points allowed (92.3 points per game).

Where the hell was this all the time????? If he was capable of playing defense like this, capable of playing Defensive Player of the Year caliber ball and having that kind of effect on the Laker team defense, why was he not doing it???? Shaq showed that he was capable of playing great defense, yet he never fulfilled that potential. It only goes to show how great he could have been.

During his feud with Kobe Bryant, he said, “I have to be fed the ball. When the dog is fed, he’ll guard the yard. When he’s not, anybody can come in.” Disgusting.

Work ethic. O’Neal’s work ethic has always been questionable. He would come into training camp out of shape. He waited until a few weeks before training camp of the 2002-2003 season to have surgery on his injured toe, instead of having it done during the summer. “I got hurt on company time, I’ll heal on company time,” he said. In 2003 he was heavier than in previous seasons. After O’Neal was traded to the Miami Heat, he weighed in at 330 pounds. Rick Barry offered to work with him on his free-throws, and Shaq said, “Rick Barry’s resume is not good enough to even come into my office to be qualified for a job. I will shoot negative-30 percent before I shoot underhanded.”

Durability. O’Neal’s missed a lot of games in his career. O’Neal played 81 games his first two seasons in the league, then played 79, 54, 51, 60, 49 in the strike-shortened 1998-99 season, 79, 74, 67, 67, 67, 73, 59, 40, 61, 75, 53, and 37 in 2010-11. Excluding the 50-game 1999 season, O’Neal’s averaged 63.8 games a season over his career. Wilt played 72, 79, 80, 80, 80, 73, 79, 81, 82, 81, 12 in 1969-70 due to a knee injury, 82, 82, and 82. That’s an average of 74.6 games a season, 79.5 if you eliminate 1969-70.

Chamberlain led the league in minutes played for eight seasons. Looking at the record book for most minutes played in a season:

MOST MINUTES PER GAME
Player MPG Season
Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia (3882/80) 48.5 1961-62
Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia (3773/79) 47.8 1960-61
Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco (3806/80) 47.6 1962-63
Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia (3737/79) 47.3 1965-66
Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia (3836/82) 46.8 1867-68
Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia (3338/72) 46.4 1959-60
Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia (3689/80) 46.1 1963-64
Nate Archibald, KC-Omaha (3681/80) 46.0 1972-73
(“NBA Almanac.” basketball.com. http://www.basketball.com/nba/records/N ... Mins.shtml)

He played 47,859 minutes in his career, averaging 45.8 minutes a game. Shaq played 40.0 minutes per game in 1999-2000, and 39.8 in 1993-94, and 39.5 in 2000-01.

Wilt plays more games, and he’s on the floor major minutes. At 34 years old Wilt played 82 games and 44.3 minutes, averaging 20.7 points on 54.5 percent shooting, a league-leading 18.2 rebounds and 4.3 assists. Shaq at 34 played 40 games and 28.4 minutes per, averaging 17.3 points on 59.1 percent shooting, 7.4 rebounds, 2.0 assists and a career-low 1.38 blocked shots. At 35, Wilt played 82 games and 42.3 minutes per, averaging 14.8 points on a league-leading 64.9 percent shooting, a league-leading 19.2 rebounds per game, and 4.0 assists, was First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense, and third in the MVP voting. At 35, Shaq played 61 games and 28.7 per, averaging 13.6 points on 59.3 percent shooting, 9.1 rebounds, 1.5 assists and 1.44 blocked shots. And logging these minutes, Wilt never fouled out of a game in 1,205 regular season and playoff games, and 55,418 regular season and playoff minutes.

Versatility. “No star athlete has ever given his boss more for his money than Wilt did during his career. Eddie Gottlieb wanted Wilt to score like no man ever had, so Wilt did. Alex [Hannum] and some of his other coaches wanted him to pass and play defense, so he did that and played 48 minutes a night” (Tall Tales p. 329). “I came into the league as a scorer; then, with the 76ers, in the middle and late 1960s, I became an assist man; then, with the Lakers, I became a defensive specialist. I always tried to do as much as I could in every phase of the game for every team, but I’ve had to change the emphasis, depending on what my coach wanted and what was required to mesh with the skills and shortcomings of my various teammates” (Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door [New York: Macmillan, 1973], p. 113). “He was probably the most versatile basketball player we’ve ever seen,” said Phil Taylor of Sports Illustrated.

Playoff Competition. Of Chamberlain’s 160 playoff games, 49 came against Bill Russell (30.6%). 30 percent of Chamberlain’s games were against the greatest defensive center of all time. Chamberlain played 62 playoff games after 1969, meaning than while Russell was in the league, Chamberlain played 98 postseason games, meaning exactly half of them were against the greatest defensive center of all time. Chamberlain went through Russell and Thurmond—the two greatest defensive centers of his era—to win his first title in 1967, and went through Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Jerry Lucas to win in 1972. During the Lakers’ three-peat, O’Neal went through Rik Smits in 2000, a 35-year old Dikembe Mutombo in 2001, and Todd MacCulloch, Jason Collins and Aaron Williams in 2002.

Wilt faced Russell in the playoffs in 1960 (ECF), 1962 (ECF), 1964 (Finals), 1965 (ECF), 1966 (ECF), 1967 (ECF), 1968 (Finals), and 1969 (Finals), Willis Reed in 1968 (EC Semifinals), 1970 (Finals), and 1973 (Finals), Jerry Lucas in 1972 (Finals), Nate Thurmond in 1967 (Finals), 1969 (Western Conference Semifinals), and 1973 (WCF), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1971 (WCF), 1972 (WCF).

EVERY YEAR WILT WAS FACING A HALL OF FAME CENTER AND TOP 50 PLAYER OF ALL TIME IN THE PLAYOFFS. Wilt played 49 games against Russell, 17 against Willis Reed, 17 against Nate Thurmond, 11 against Kareem, and five against Jerry Lucas. 99 of his 160 playoff games (61.9%).

In 1994, O’Neal was swept by Indiana and Rik Smits (15.7 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 1.05 bpg, .534 FG%) in the first round. Orlando was 50-32 and Indiana 47-35. In 1995, O’Neal faced Boston’s Eric Montross in the first round, Chicago’s Luc Longley in the Eastern Conference Semi-finals, Rik Smits (17.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 1.4 apg, .526 FG%) in the Eastern Conference Finals, and was swept by Hakeem Olajuwon (27.8 ppg [2nd], 10.8 rpg [8th], 3.5 apg, 3.36 bpg [2nd], .517 FG%, Third Team All-NBA) in the NBA Finals. In 1996, O’Neal swept Detroit’s Otis Thorpe in the first round, faced Atlanta’s Andrew Lang in the EC Semis, and was swept by Chicago’s Luc Longley in the Eastern Conference Finals. In 1997 he faced Portland’s Arvydas Sabonis (13.4 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 2.1 apg) and Chris Dudley in the first round, and lost in five to Utah’s Greg Ostertag in the WC Semis. In 1998 he faced Sabonis (16.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg [9th], 3.0 apg, .493 FG%) in the first round, Seattle’s Sam Perkins (6-9, 235) in the WC Semis, and was swept by Utah’s Greg Ostertag in the WC Finals. In 1999 he beat a 36-year-old Hakeem Olajuwon (18.9 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.46 bpg, .514 FG%, Third Team All-NBA) in four in the first round, and was swept by San Antonio’s David Robinson (15.8 ppg, 10.0 rpg [10th], 2.1 apg, 2.43 bpg [9th], .509 FG% [5th], 31.7 mpg) in the WC Semis.

In 2000 he went through Sacramento’s Vlade Divac (12.3 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.0 apg, .503 FG%) in five in the first round, Phoenix’s Luc Longley, Mark West and Oliver Miller in five in the WC Semis, Portland’s Arvydas Sabonis (11.8 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 1.8 apg, .505 FG%) in seven in the WCF, and Indiana’s Rik Smits (12.9 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 1.1 apg) in six in the NBA Finals. In 2001 he went through Sabonis (10.1 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 1.5 apg) in three in the first round, Divac (12.0 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.9 apg) in four in the WC Semis, David Robinson (14.4 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 1.5 apg, 2.46 bpg [8th], 29.6 mpg, Third Team All NBA) in four in the WCF, and Defensive Player of the Year Dikembe Mutombo (10.0 ppg, 13.5 rpg [1st], 1.0 apg, 2.71 bpg [5th], .484 FG%, Second Team All-NBA) in five in the NBA Finals. In 2002, he went through Sabonis in three in the first round, Robinson (12.2 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.2 apg, 1.79 bpg, .507 FG%, 29.5 mpg) in 5 in the semis, Divac (11.1 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 3.7 apg) in seven in the WCF, and New Jersey’s Todd MacCulloch (9.7 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.44 bpg, 24.2 mpg), Jason Collins (4.5 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 1.1 apg, 18.3 mpg) and Aaron Williams (7.2 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 0.9 apg, 18.9 mpg) in the Finals.

In 2003, O’Neal faced Minnesota’s Rasho Nesterovic in the first round, and lost to David Robinson (8.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.73 bpg, 26.2 mpg) in the semis. In 2004 he faced Houston’s Yao Ming (17.5 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.90 bpg, .522 FG%, Third Team All-NBA) in the first round, Rasho Nesterovic in six in the Western Conference Semis, Minnesota’s Michael Olowokandi and Ervin Johnson in the WCF, and lost to Detroit’s Ben Wallace (9.5 ppg, 12.4 rpg [3rd], 1.7 apg, 3.04 bpg [2nd], 1.77 spg, Second Team All-NBA) in five in the NBA Finals. In 2005 with the Heat he faced New Jersey’s Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins in the first round, Washington’s Brendan Haywood in the EC Semis, and lost to Ben Wallace (9.7 ppg, 12.2 rpg [2nd], 1.7 apg, 2.38 bpg [5th], 1.43 spg, Third Team All-NBA, DPOY) in seven in the ECF. In 2006 he went through Chicago’s Tyson Chandler in the first round, New Jersey’s Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins in the Semis, Ben Wallace in the ECF, and Dallas’ Erick Dampier and DeSagana Diop in the NBA Finals. In 2007 he was swept by Chicago’s Ben Wallace and P.J. Brown in the first round.

Shaq was eliminated from the playoffs by Rik Smits (1994), Hakeem Olajuwon (1995), Luc Longley (1996), Greg Ostertag (1997, 1998), David Robinson (1999, 2003), and Ben Wallace (2004, 2005, 2007). Wilt was eliminated by Russell (1960 [Second Team All-NBA, 2nd in MVP voting], ’62 [Second Team All-NBA, MVP], ’64-66 [MVP], ’68 [Second Team All-NBA], ’69 [First Team All-Defense, 4th in MVP voting]), Kareem, and Willis Reed (1970 [First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense, MVP; 21.7 ppg, 13.9 rpg [6th], 2.0 apg, .507 FG%], 1973). Shaq played 8 games against Hakeem Olajuwon and 19 against David Robinson. That’s 27 of 198 career postseason games (13.6%).

Wilt faced a Hall of Fame center and Top 50 Player of all time in 61 percent of the playoff games in played in his career. Shaq faced a Hall of Fame center and Top 50 Player of all time in 14 percent of the playoff games he played in his career.

Wilt faced Hall of Fame centers who still played like Hall of Fame centers. Nate Thurmond averaged 18.7 points, 21.3 rebounds and 2.6 assists in 1966-67 when Wilt faced him in the NBA Finals, and finished second in the MVP voting; he averaged 21.5 points, 19.7 rebounds and 3.6 assists in 1969, and was First Team All-Defense; he averaged 17.1 points, 17.1 rebounds and 3.5 assists in 1972-73, was Second Team All-Defense and ninth in the MVP voting. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was back-to-back NBA Most Valuable Player when Wilt faced him in 1971 (31.7 ppg [1st], 16.0 rpg [4th], 3.3 apg, .577 FG% [2nd], Second Team All-Defense) and 1972.

[lorak]

From last thread

These are West's Finals pts totals if anyone's wondering, from http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1963.htm Has FGs and not FGA most years, so hard to get FG% but looks like he shot great except for 65 and 72

62 - (can't find boxscore)
63 - 28, 25, 42, 18, 32, 32 (average: 29.5ppg)
65 - 26, 45, 43, 22, 33 (average: 33.8ppg)
66 - 41, 18, 34, 45, 31, 32, 36 (average: 33.9ppg)
68 - 25, 35, 33, 38, 35, 22 (average: 31.3ppg)
69 - 53, 41, 24, 40, 39, 26, 42 (average: 37.8ppg)
70 - 33, 34, 34, 37, 20, 33, 28 (average: 31.2ppg)
72 - 12, 15, 21, 28, 23, (average: 19.8ppg)
73 - 24, 32, 31, 23, 12, (average: 22.2ppg)

And these came against one of the greatest defensive teams ever literally every Finals.

Celtics defensive strategy was to allow him score and shut down rest of the Lakers.
Against Knicks, when NY strategy was different and they had Frazier to throw on him, West wasn’t as good (and he definitely wasn’t past his prime – from 1970 to 1972, so three straight years, he was 2nd in MVP voting). Game 7 from 1970 is easily available on the internet, so everybody could see how West looked, turnovers near the half court line, weak defense – were was his so called great defense when Frazier was doing whatever he wanted to do? Where was his clutch ability and leadership when his team needs points and example how to fight?

And no, that’s not only one game. West had many disappointing performances in elimination games (another similarity with Kobe Bryant). Lets look at some of these finals you bring here:
1966 game 7 – 12/27 FG
1968 game 6 – 8/19 FG
1972 game 5 – 10/28 FG
1973 game 5 – 5/17 FG

And you also said: so hard to get FG% but looks like he shot great except for 65 and 72


In fact we know exactly how he shot in most of these finals and it’s far from great:

Code: Select all

year   finals FG%   RS FG%   difference
1973   44,2          47,9   -3,7
1972   32,5          47,7   -15,2
1970   45,0          49,7   -4,7
1965   42,4          49,7   -7,3
1963   49,0          46,1   2,9



For this kind of drop off Robinson is always criticized, so why West gets free pass?

For missing years (1962, 1966, 1968 and 1969) there’s no data about 1962 finals, but we know West’s shooting from last games of 1966, 1968 and 1969 finals: 12/27, 8/19 and 14/29 FG.

[lorak]

On the other hand, Magic clearly wins in longevity-of-utter-greatness.

How is it possible?

They played very similar amount of games and minutes. Also without doubt Bird's peak was better. Bird have much more (0.5 in this case is a big deal) career MVP shares than Magic, they are tied in all NBA teams. So I don't see any Magic's advantage in terms of longevity.

[Black Feet]

On the other hand, Magic clearly wins in longevity-of-utter-greatness.

How is it possible?

They played very similar amount of games and minutes. Also without doubt Bird's peak was better. Bird have much more (0.5 in this case is a big deal) career MVP shares than Magic, they are tied in all NBA teams. So I don't see any Magic's advantage in terms of longevity.

How is Bird's peak without a doubt better than Magic's? You must be a celtics fan because that is a very silly statement. I think Magic clearly had a better peak, his impact on the court surpasses Bird. I also don't see the argument for Bird in longevity either, so for me Magic is without a doubt ahead of Bird in my top ten.

[GilmoreFan]

Very early days with the voting. Wilt on 4, Magic on 3, and alot of undecided people. After reflecting on it, I'm going to go ahead and vote Duncan (bringing his total to 1), and hopefully I won't need to recalibrate my vote for preferences later. I just don't think Magic or Wilt had the same impact on the game of basketball as he did.

West looks pretty safe for nomination this time around, with 7 votes, but I'm still not sure KG doesn't make a late run to get through this time. Oscar has 1 vote. I'm going to go ahead and nominate KG, because I don't feel like there is support for Lebron yet, which is a shame, because I'd quite like to nominate him here.

[lorak]

On the other hand, Magic clearly wins in longevity-of-utter-greatness.

How is it possible?

They played very similar amount of games and minutes. Also without doubt Bird's peak was better. Bird have much more (0.5 in this case is a big deal) career MVP shares than Magic, they are tied in all NBA teams. So I don't see any Magic's advantage in terms of longevity.

How is Bird's peak without a doubt better than Magic's?

Well, Magic never had so great three year stretch like Bird from '84 to '86 when he was the best player on the world.

[JordansBulls]

I'm leaning towards Wilt but the more I think about it he hasn't played well in big games.


What Wilt did in the regular season, which is fine and all, but when talking about the best, what they did in the playoffs and finals is what matters. Wilt getting 55 rebounds against Russell in a meaningless regular season game doesn't matter much does it? Especially when in the finals he averages 11.7 ppg against him one year.

Wilt lost 5 series with Homecourt Advantage, 5 of them.

Here were the years.

Wilt Chamberlain (lost in ’60-61, ’65-66, ’67-68, ’68-69, ’72-73)

How did Wilt lose with Homecourt Advantage to the Syracuse Nationals in Round 1 when the Nationals were 38-41. Not only did he lose but he got swept.

Wilt's scoring from regular season to playoffs went down every single year of his career (sometimes by a lot) on lower efficiency (.547 to .523). Obviously facing better teams and facing Russell (who held Wilt to 5.7 ppg under his career average in their 147 meetings) had something to do with it, but Wilt failed to step up his game and it didn't help his teams in the playoffs.

In the regular season , Wilt was on some of the best teams in his era. Most seem to assume that Wilt just didn't have the supporting cast to contend with the greatest dynasty ever. This is not the case. His 1967 Sixers were named the best team ever in 1980, and he had that team's core (Wilt, Greer, Walker, Cunningham, Jackson) for 3 years straight, and also had the best SG in West and best SF in Baylor (up to that point) for a couple years after, forming a trio that Wilt himself said he thought could go down as the greatest team of all time. Talented rosters that won a lot in the regular season and had high expectations in the playoffs.

When the playoffs arrived, however, it was a different story. Wilt's failures:

1961: Wilt's 46-33 Warriors are swept by the 38-41 Nationals

1962: Wilt, at the height of his scoring prowess having averaged 50.4 ppg in the regular season, is held to a season-low 22 points in the 7th and deciding game by Bill Russell

1966: Wilt's 55-25 Sixers lose 4-1 to the 54-26 Celtics

1967: Wilt's single impressive playoff run, nearly averaging a triple double. The 68-13 Sixers soundly beat the Celtics 4-1, proving that this was a championship caliber core

1968: The same Sixers (with Wilt winning season MVP) go 62-20 and lose to the 54-28 Celtics in 7 games after being up 3-1. In Game 7 Wilt did not attempt a field goal in the 2nd half

1969: One of the most talented trios ever in Wilt, West, and Baylor go 55-25 and win the regular season series 4-2 against the 48-34 Celtics, proving again Wilt had the talent to beat them. The Lakers were heavily favored against the Celtics in the Finals. But again, Wilt laid another 7th game egg against the Celtics when he "hurt his leg" with 6 minutes to go and did not play the rest of the game

1970: Wilt's Lakers return to the Finals, this time against the Knicks. Reed missed game 6 due to injury and Wilt demolished the Knicks to send it to a 7th game. So what happened in Game 7? You guessed it: another stinker by Wilt's 21 points (1-11 from the line) against a hobbling, injured Reed and his backups.

And let's be real about something: In the 1970 Finals, the Lakers were up 20 points in Game 5 and Willis Reed was hurt and the Knicks still won that game. Game 6, Willis Reed missed that game and the Lakers won and in game 7 Willis Reed was still hurt and he came in to play in the game. He only scored like 4 points in it and thus that is why his stats were down. So don't give me this mess about how good Wilt was when he couldn't dominate a player that was injured.
Frazier took over Game 7 and that's why the Knicks won. Thus what was Wilt doing in Game 7 in the Finals? He couldn't even dominate a hubbled Willis Reed.

1973: Wilt's 60-22 Lakers lose 4-1 to the 57-25 Knicks


Wilt lost 5 series when his teams were the higher seed. He failed to step up in 4 Game 7s. By what standards was Wilt an excellent playoff performer if he couldn't lead his teams to victory when he had great opportunities to do so?
Wilt, despite all his individual brilliance in the regular season, was a chronic underachiever in the playoffs. To paraphrase Barry, Wilt was simply a loser.


Now tell me, how do you average 50 ppg for a season but in game 7 of the playoffs you score 22? How could anyone be considered the best when in the most important games they show up like that?

Also what about this what Bill Russell even noticed.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm

The Lakers were heavily favored to win the 1969 NBA Finals against the old, battered Celtics, but then Chamberlain became the victim of one of the most controversial coaching decisions in NBA history. In Game 7, Wilt hurt his leg with six minutes left to play, with the Lakers trailing by nine points. The Celtics won, 108-106. When Chamberlain had asked out of the game, the Lakers had been trailing by nine points, but then mounted a comeback to pull within one by the time he asked back in; this caused some to assume that Chamberlain had not really been injured, but instead had given up and "copped out" of the game when it looked as though the Lakers would lose. Because of this, some branded him a scapegoat and a quitter. Even Bill Russell ridiculed him, which almost caused Chamberlain to end their friendship..

http://www.barrystickets.com/lakers/lak ... erlain.php

In 1970, the acquisition of the sharpshooting guard Gail Goodrich helped with the Lakers' offensive firepower with the loss of Baylor. In the NBA Finals, the Lakers were matched up against the New York Knicks, one of the best defensive teams of the post-Russell-Celtics era. Both teams fought a hard, grueling series, but in Game 5, Chamberlain's opposing center Willis Reed suffered a serious thigh injury. The Knicks won that game, but they were demolished in Game 6 with Chamberlain's strong offense, and they looked doomed in Game 7 without their starting center. However, Reed limped onto the court, won the opening tip-off against Chamberlain, and scored the first four points, inspiring his team to one of the most famous playoff upsets of all time. Although Reed was able to play only a fraction of the game, and could hardly move when he did play, Chamberlain still scored only 21 points (his season average had been 27.3) on only 16 shots, quite few in a Game 7. Further, he shot an abysmal 1-of-11 from the foul line, making the game perhaps his greatest on-court failure.

1-11 from the foul in Game 7 of the NBA Finals?

[lorak]

I'm leaning towards Wilt but the more I think about it he hasn't played well in big games.

?

Wilt in do or die games...

1960 G3 vs. Nationals: 53 points, ? rebounds (playoff record at the time for pts)
1962 G5 vs. Nationals: 56 pts, 35 rebs (breaks his own playoff record)
1962 G7 vs Celtics : 22 pts, 21 rebs (7/14 shooting - Warriors were on the verge of pulling off this upset but Sam James hit a clutch shot. Wilt was undoubtedly fronted by the entire Celtics frontline, as was the case for most of his games vs. Celtics in mid-60s, a defensive strategy which would have been illegal in 80s/90s mind you)
1964 G7 vs. Hawks: 39 pts, 26 rebs, 12 blocks (many of which led to 14-0 run…and scored 50 pts a couple of days earlier in the pivotal game 5)
1965 G7 vs. Celtics: 30 pts, 32 rebs (famous game where Havlichek stole the ball, had 30/26 to save team from elimination the game before)
1968 G7 vs Celtics: 14 pts, 34 rebs, (wilt’s role different, but he definitely could have stepped up offensively in the second half)
1969 G7 vs. Celtics: 18 pts, 27 rebs (injured in final 6 minutes of game, attempted to come back, coach held him back...and Lakers end up losing close game on a lucky shot by Don Nelson)
1970 G7 vs. Suns: 30 pts, 27 rebs, 11 blocks (Lakers come back from down 3-1, and Wilt was 34 at the time)
1970 G7 vs. Knicks: 21 pts, 24 rebs (45 pts 27 rebs in the game before this to save Lakers from elimination, and AGAIN, he is 34 years old)

[BadMojo]

You had to sign up frm the beginning then?

No problem, I took the vote away then.

[GilmoreFan]

You're not on the list. Sorry.

[Baller 24]

EDIT

[FJS]

Vote for Magic

9 finals in 12 years, 5 rings, 3 MVP
A total player who did everything.

Nomination Oscar Robertson

[SDChargers#1]

I think Unbiased meant best perimeter defender of his era, which Bryant absolutely has a claim to. I don't think he or any of actually think Kobe was a better defender than Duncan, Garnett, Wallace, or Dwight.

The whole Kobe being overrated on defense thing is getting really old though. This last season is the only year where I honestly feel Kobe didn't deserve all defense. I'll get into it in more detail, when I actually feel Kobe deserves to be in the mention (#4 is too early). Just for a small sample though, reference Kobe in the '08 Olympics, this is supposedly Kobe well past his defensive prime, yet he shows up and not only plays the best defense on the team, but the best defense in the entire tournament. He was so impressive that he motivated both Lebron, Wade, and quite a few others to work and focus on their defense coming into the next season. When Kobe put his mind to it, he was quite easily the best perimeter defender of the decade.

[Baller 24]

Yes, when he TRIED he was fantastic, that was three-peat Bryant, when he tried he was literally lock down. But, that's my exact point, you shouldn't be getting awards when you don't try on all possessions, especially considering there are defensive specialist trying on every single possession, Bruce Bowen comes to mind, '04 Ron Artest at peak form is arguably one of the best defenders I've seen of the last decade before the rule changes. Again though, let's save it for later when we have to have arguments over this issue, #4 is way too early.

[lorak]

I think Unbiased meant best perimeter defender of his era, which Bryant absolutely has a claim to.

Absolutely no.
He was very good defender at the beginning of the century, but after that things get a lot worse for him. We even have data which confirms that, because his defensive APM from '03 to '09 is -0.6, so slightly below average (so negative impact on D). Regularized defensive APM from '06 to '11 says the same story: -0.9

[Dipper 13]

I'm leaning towards Wilt but the more I think about it he hasn't played well in big games.

?

Wilt in do or die games...

1960 G3 vs. Nationals: 53 points, ? rebounds (playoff record at the time for pts)
1962 G5 vs. Nationals: 56 pts, 35 rebs (breaks his own playoff record)
1962 G7 vs Celtics : 22 pts, 21 rebs (7/14 shooting - Warriors were on the verge of pulling off this upset but Sam James hit a clutch shot. Wilt was undoubtedly fronted by the entire Celtics frontline, as was the case for most of his games vs. Celtics in mid-60s, a defensive strategy which would have been illegal in 80s/90s mind you)
1964 G7 vs. Hawks: 39 pts, 26 rebs, 12 blocks (many of which led to 14-0 run…and scored 50 pts a couple of days earlier in the pivotal game 5)
1965 G7 vs. Celtics: 30 pts, 32 rebs (famous game where Havlichek stole the ball, had 30/26 to save team from elimination the game before)
1968 G7 vs Celtics: 14 pts, 34 rebs, (wilt’s role different, but he definitely could have stepped up offensively in the second half)
1969 G7 vs. Celtics: 18 pts, 27 rebs (injured in final 6 minutes of game, attempted to come back, coach held him back...and Lakers end up losing close game on a lucky shot by Don Nelson)
1970 G7 vs. Suns: 30 pts, 27 rebs, 11 blocks (Lakers come back from down 3-1, and Wilt was 34 at the time)
1970 G7 vs. Knicks: 21 pts, 24 rebs (45 pts 27 rebs in the game before this to save Lakers from elimination, and AGAIN, he is 34 years old)

1966 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 46 points, 34 rebounds in an 8 point loss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgEmNgfscIg#t=3m34s


1968 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 27 rebounds in an 18 point win. Little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAM in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame bigs Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed.

1970 Game 5 vs. Suns: 36 points, 14 rebounds in a 17 point win

1971 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 25 points, 18 rebounds in an 11 point win

1973 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 21 points, 28 rebounds in a 3 point win (Bulls had the ball and a one point lead with 30 or so seconds left in the 4th. Norm Van Lier goes up for the shot only to have it rejected by Wilt down court right to Gail Goodrich for the go ahead basket.

[Dipper 13]

1961: Wilt's 46-33 Warriors are swept by the 38-41 Nationals

Game 1:




Game 2:




Game 3:

1962: Wilt, at the height of his scoring prowess having averaged 50.4 ppg in the regular season, is held to a season-low 22 points in the 7th and deciding game by Bill Russell

While his regular season ppg average did decrease in the playoffs every year his rebounds increased (minus his Philly Warrior seasons where he was used a freak show in a league with the blistering pace). I believe due to the games slowing down in the PS and the defense tendency to sag the middle Wilt had to hit the offensive glass even harder than he did during the RS. Unfortunately rebounds were not statistically classified at the time. Apparently Vince Miller kept these stats (among others) in Harvey Pollack's annual yearbook.


Elevating the Game: Black Men and Basketball - Nelson George

Throughout his career, Chamberlain was cursed with coaches and teammates who didn't or couldn't complement his skills. Management too often stood back and failed to build a self-sustaining system around him. In big games throughout his career too often it came down to Chamberlain versus five opponents determined to stop him. No single man, no matter how strong, could beat these odds consistently.



In the '62 series against Boston Coach Frank McGuire had moved Wilt up the top of the key (high post) to expand their offensive options as opposed to being too predictable against Russell, forcing him to play more conservative defense. Not only was Wilt scoring more frequently than he did in the regular season and still out scoring Russell, the Warriors starters were out scoring the Celtics starters. But the C's 3 key bench players (K.C, Ramsey, Loscy) brutalized the Warriors bench by an even bigger margin. Who is to say Wilt gave up on any hope of winning the game with his late game scoring. Or perhaps "heroic attempts" as I'm sure it would be declared for any other player not named Wilt. At least Chamberlain led his team to a comeback attempt in that 3rd game of the '62 series, which likely carried the Warriors momentum over to the 4th game, where he had 41 points & 34 rebounds in a 4 point victory. Of course all this while neglecting that the game was faster then resulting in less half court sets for Chamberlain to go down low. Plus the fact that Boston was a running team at the time and on offense Chamberlain was set up at the high post (FT line) by design. Anyone not named Wilt is hailed as an "unselfish team player." This foolish numbers padding accusation can be used against any great in NBA history. There is no way to determine the momentum shifts and runs during any given point in the game without having seen it yourself. What might the Warriors strategy have been offensively? What impact did early foul trouble have for either team? Would they foolishly attempt to have Wilt taking 40 shots a game like he did in the regular season hoping that one man could beat the greatest dynasty in sports history?




The Rivalry: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball - John Taylor

One reason for Russell's success against Chamberlain was his uncanny ability to anticipate Chamberlain's moves. "All season long Russell has known just which way Wilt was going to turn," Frank McGuire complained to an acquaintance as the playoffs began. But under McGuire's direction, Chamberlain was now playing out of the pivot at the top of the key. As a result, reporters were writing about a "new" Wilt Chamberlain - "Warriors' Wilt to Display New Style Against Celtics" was a headline in The Philadelphia Inquirer before the series began - and McGuire was hoping that, since Chamberlain had more option in the pivot, Russell might be forced to play him more conservatively, which in turn could free up Chamberlain to shoot.

Once the series began, Chamberlain was able to score more frequently. In fact, the Warriors' five starters - Chamberlain, Paul Arizin, Guy Rodgers, Tom Meschery, and Tom Gola, who was playing with a sprained back - outscored the Celtics' five starters - Russell, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones, and Satch Sanders. But this advantage was offset by the fact that Boston's top three relievers - Frank Ramsey, K.C. Jones, and Jim Loscutoff - outscored their Philadlephia counterparts - Al Attles, Ed Conlin, York Larese - by an even greater margin.


After the Sam Jones game winner:

When the ball fell in, three seconds remained on the clock. The Warriors immediately called time-out, but once the clock actually stopped, only one second remained. On the sidelines, Frank McGuire was enraged. He was convinced the timekeeper, a Celtics employee, had let two crucial seconds run down, and he demanded that referee Richie Powers restore them to the clock. Powers refused.



The following season, their early 11 game losing streak really killed them. It seems to have been an uphill battle all season, as the Warriors went from a team that was seconds away from defeating the Celtics (and most assuredly the Lakers in the Finals) to a bad team, after losing their top two scorers after Wilt & their head coach due to the franchise's 2500 mile relocation. A championship contender blown up just like that with seven new players on the roster.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... games.html

Guy was not happy to leave Philly. He had spent his entire life there, making a name for himself in the community far beyond his hardwood exploits. A couple of years earlier, he and Gladys had purchased a home in an East Philadelphia neighborhood only to discover that they were the first African-American couple ever to buy there. His neighbors could not have been nicer.

Of course, there were good points about heading west. Freed from the purgatory of second-place finishes and semifinal defeats against the Celtics, Guy and Chamberlain had visions of reaching the NBA Finals. They were disappointed in their first year, however, as Arizin retired rather than move and Gola was traded to the Knicks. Without these scorers, teams were free to double-and triple-team Chamberlain, daring the other Warriors to score. Guy led the league with 825 assists and 10.4 per game, and upped his scoring to 13.9, but it wasn’t enough. Despite Chamberlain’s 44.8 points per game, the Warriors failed to win consistently and finished in fourth place, out of the playoff picture.

1966: Wilt's 55-25 Sixers lose 4-1 to the 54-26 Celtics

Beyond the statistics, Chamberlain by all accounts did increase his level of play defensively & on the boards. Considering how few touches he received in the games due to the sagging defense, we must assume a number of his missed FG's were tip-in attempts in the congested paint. He averaged 30 boards for the series and a good chunk of them must have come on the offensive end.


Here is an example below (Chamberlain off. rebound + dunk) showing just how poor the Sixers shooting was. Wali barely hits the backboard on a 15 foot jumper.


5:20 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgEmNgfscIg


Also note another Chamberlain rebound & dunk at the 5:38 mark in the same video above from the '66 series. We can also note how the Celtics pressed full court to keep the ball out of his hands as much as possible and at the 4:05 mark off the opening jump ball how the defense was shifted to Wilt's (left) side of the floor, leaving Wali unguarded for a shot. We can also see a Bill Russell "intangible" quality off the inbounds.

"When I feel he is relaxed, I burst down on the break, and we murder him. But this works just once and two points do not win a ball game."


Some have stated that Wilt was the main reason for the loss in '66, that the Sixers would have won had he statistically performed up to par. In the 1st half of G5, Coach Schayes noted that Chamberlain was the only player to shoot 25% or better from the field on his way to a 46 point night.


Apr 13, 1966





Game 1:

Sixers hit with the flu + 2 week layoff = 19 turnovers in a 19 point loss.

Wilt Chamberlain did his work under the boards, taking 32 rebounds for the 76ers. But his mates couldn't get the ball into him often and he made only nine field goals in scoring 25 points.




Game 2:




Game 3:

Their defense was the barbed wire. Every time they needed a key basket, Wilt Chamberlain poured through the lane and got it for them. That was how the Philadelphia 76ers got back into contention in the Eastern Division playoffs with a 111-105 victory over the Boston Celtics Thursday night at Convention Hall.




Game 4: Chamberlain with the block at the end of regulation to force OT.







Game 5:

Christian Science Monitor - Apr 14, 1966

Wilt took 34 shots, hitting on 19. But he was only eight for 25 with his free throws. Chamberlain scored 46 points, no small since Russell played him tight and with a maximum amount of contact. But Wilt could have gone to 63 with Bill Sharman's touch at the foul line. Boston's cornermen excelled, not only, but also on offense. John Havlicek played the full 48 minutes and scored 32 points. Tom Sanders probably had his best game of the series with 11 points and 16 rebounds. And Don Nelson, with 12 points in 18 minutes, caught the 76ers completely..


Apr 18, 1966




Schenectady Gazette - Aug 24, 1966




The Morning Record - Nov 3, 1966

1968: The same Sixers (with Wilt winning season MVP) go 62-20 and lose to the 54-28 Celtics in 7 games after being up 3-1. In Game 7 Wilt did not attempt a field goal in the 2nd half

Wayne Embry's ability to keep Wilt off the offensive boards, clearing Russell (the GOAT defensive rebounder) to get the rebound and outlet to start the break was basically the reason the Sixers didn't close Boston out in Gm. 5 of the '68 EDF, despite an injured Wilt (partial tear of calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh, partial tear of right knee tendon, and an injured right toe) coming out strong with a 31/30/7 effort. To quote Russell during the series, "A lesser man wouldn't be out there." Hell, the reason they won G4 was big Luke making Russell pay for sagging back on Wilt by hitting 4 big outside shots (3 consecutive) in the 4th quarter to open up a 10 pt. lead. Final score = 110-105. Chamberlain's G5 effort (31/30/7) exceeded his regular season statistical averages in both points & rebounds.

While it is noted that Russell switched himself onto Chet to cool him off, it appears he killed two birds with one stone. Of course the Sixers exceptionally poor outside shooting (below 25% FG in the 4th) when it counted along with Billy C's glaring absence didn't hurt either.


Article prior to Gm. 1 vs. Boston:

Christian Science Monitor - Apr 5, 1968

For example, Philadelphia lost Billy Cunningham for the season in the New York series with a broken right wrist. This is like Boston having to play without John Havlicek or St. Louis minus Joe Caldwell. Cunningham is a shooter' in all that the term implies. He played almost as many minutes during the season as the 76ers' two starting forwards, Luke Jackson and Chet Walker. Bill is an expert at driving the middle, drawing fouls, and then cashing them in at the free throw line. There is no one on the Celtics who really plays him well. Havlicek probably comes closest. But John's quickness is generally wasted against Cunningham, mostly because Bill gives no indication of when he is going to shoot.

The 76ers run what they call a C-pattern for Cunningham. It allows Billy to come across the top of the key from either side, pull up for a quick jumper whenever he feels like it, and then clears out the middle so that he can follow his own shot to the basket.



Article prior to Gm. 7:




Gettysburg Times - May 9, 1968

According to Vince Miller after the game Chamberlain got five touches in the 4th quarter of G7. Whether it two touches or five in the final period, all accounts agree that he got 7 touches in the 2nd half. This after 23 touches in the 1st half.


"What would I have looked like if I had said, 'Hey, we lost because my teammates didn't get the ball into me? If Alex Hannum didn't have guts enough to lay it on the line and accept a certain amount of responsibility for the loss and name the reasons why, then I've lost a lot of respect for him, which I have and I will tell him that when I see him. You can't shoot the ball if you don't have the ball. But you know something, after the game, not one writer came up to me and said 'Hey, how come the ball didn't come into you?' Not one. But all of them did ask me, 'How come you didn't shoot more?'


Bill Russell interview from 2008:

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/prin ... /rus0int-1

Before we leave 1968 altogether, can we talk about game seven for a minute? In 1968 you limited your friend Wilt Chamberlain to two shot attempts in the entire second half of game seven.

That's not true at all. That was a coach's decision. There was a forward on their team named Chet Walker, and he was hurting us badly, okay? So I had my backup center, it was a guy named Wayne Embry. Now Embry had been in the league seven or eight years, and he played against Wilt all those years. So at half time I said to him, "Wayne, I'm going to try something. It's not new. I want you to guard Wilt. Okay? I have to take care of Chet Walker." And see, when I made that substitution everybody thought it was trying to stay out of foul trouble, something like that, which was to me the best part of that because I made adjustments that they didn't know what I was doing. So they couldn't make a counter adjustment. You see if you make an adjustment, and they know what you're doing, well they can just counter it. But I made an adjustment, they thought it was to get off of Wilt. They didn't know it was to get on Chet. Now Wilt had a game plan, but his game plan was counting on me trying to guard him. When we put Wayne on him, he guarded him a completely different way.


He was used to you guarding him.

Yes. To me, the pretty part of it was -- I hate to use the word beauty -- is that Wayne had enormous experience guarding him. So it wasn't like you took some guy out of the stands and put him on Wilt. Here's a guy who's been guarding him for years. That adjustment was for Chet Walker, it wasn't for Wilt.


Can you talk us through the last minute of the 1968 Eastern Finals?

It was a close game, but we were in charge. So they got to the place where they've got to foul us. So they fouled, and we make free throws and they go down, and they score and make three fouls. So they get down to 12 seconds to go. That's when the thing with Sam came up. It was going to that series. After we got down three to one...

I'm the coach, okay, and so I'm talking to my guys before the fifth game. And I says, "We're going to beat these guys, and this is how we're going to do it." And we had a rookie on the team who's now a judge in Boston, because he had an ailment, he had to retire, but he told me a few years ago, he said, "You know, I was in the locker room when you said that. That's the most disciplined situation I've ever been in my life, because I had to discipline myself from falling out on the floor laughing, when you said we're going to beat these guys." He says, "They're going to kill us!" And he says, "We haven't got a chance!" And he sat there and watched the whole thing happen. And he says that's one of the wonders of his life, because I said it with complete confidence. And then I said, like I said earlier, "We don't have to win three games in a row. We've just got to win one." You see, after we won two of them, the pressure completely shifts. The pressure is on them. You're up three to one, and how do you lose three straight?

So it was basically routine.

I think that that move that I made at half time was the most important move I made as a coach in that series, because it worked, and we got accomplished what we wanted to get accomplished without them knowing what we were trying to accomplish. See everybody still talks about the fact that Wilt only took two shots. They still almost won the game, right? And the key was that Chet Walker had been killing us. And I knew that I could guard him. And the reason I knew I could guard him is his moves were very deliberate. As part of my teaching myself, I learned -- we had six plays and nowadays they number those positions. One is point guard, two is shooting guard, three is a small forward, four is a power forward, five is a center. Well, I made a point to learn how to play all those positions on all six plays. Now not that I ever wanted to or hoped to play in those other positions, but in knowing those positions I know the problems that go with that position. So that if my teammate needed help I can help. And on defense I watched these guys, how they play defense, and I know how to guard almost any position. And I physically took over Chet.



The inside game: race, power, and politics in the NBA - Wayne Embry

1969: One of the most talented trios ever in Wilt, West, and Baylor go 55-25 and win the regular season series 4-2 against the 48-34 Celtics, proving again Wilt had the talent to beat them. The Lakers were heavily favored against the Celtics in the Finals. But again, Wilt laid another 7th game egg against the Celtics when he "hurt his leg" with 6 minutes to go and did not play the rest of the game

Besides G5 of the Finals when Butch inexplicably left West in at the end of a decided game to badly injure a hamstring (could not effectively guard Sam Jones anymore, who went wild), there was the infamous G7.





'After Van Breda Kolff was gone, Chamberlain criticized his heavy drinking, his penchant for conducting farting contests, and his failure to prepare for games.'

Earl Strom: In a sense, I respect Butch for making one of the dumbest moves any coach has ever made.

After Wilt went to the bench, the Celtics did force some bad outside shots after Russell initially got a bit excited with Mel Counts guarding him. They could have fed Chamberlain as Bill Russell was clearly sagging off him, in hopes of fouling him out, therefore giving the Lakers a more decisive advantage on the glass with Russell out. The point is that Chamberlain was not given an opportunity to help his team win the championship at the end as noted by Sonny Hill below.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESDFppbQ2zM#t=3m34s


This is not to down Jerry West's performance, but you need to watch the full 4th quarter on Youtube. Count how many touches Chamberlain actually received in the pivot. As soon as Russell picked up foul number 5, Chamberlain goes down low next possession attempting to take him out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3k9eWPEbXE#t=3m20s

1970: Wilt's Lakers return to the Finals, this time against the Knicks. Reed missed game 6 due to injury and Wilt demolished the Knicks to send it to a 7th game. So what happened in Game 7? You guessed it: another stinker by Wilt's 21 points (1-11 from the line) against a hobbling, injured Reed and his backups.

And let's be real about something: In the 1970 Finals, the Lakers were up 20 points in Game 5 and Willis Reed was hurt and the Knicks still won that game. Game 6, Willis Reed missed that game and the Lakers won and in game 7 Willis Reed was still hurt and he came in to play in the game. He only scored like 4 points in it and thus that is why his stats were down. So don't give me this mess about how good Wilt was when he couldn't dominate a player that was injured.
Frazier took over Game 7 and that's why the Knicks won. Thus what was Wilt doing in Game 7 in the Finals? He couldn't even dominate a hubbled Willis Reed.

He was hobbled himself. Coming off a career threatening knee injury, he is unable to jump as quick or perform the same moves as in his younger years, even in Game 6, which may have been the title clincher had they played smarter in Game 5 (18 2nd half turnovers & 1/3 less shot attempts).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqgky3JP5eY#t=9m4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfImCamd6J8#t=9m6s






http://airjudden2.tripod.com/books/thep ... eason.html

Rosen decided research was not needed, since he found his own brand of fiction is more entertaining, at least to himself.

Here is Rosen's account of the legendary "Willis Reed" game 7 in 1970: "Chamberlain, clearly intimidated by Reed's dramatic display of courage, was rendered passive and impotent." (p.15) Reed had 4 points and 2 rebounds. Chamberlain had 21 points and 24 rebounds. The Knicks' Walt Frazier, a guard mind you, had 39 points and 19 assists. Either West got burned or his coach lacked the faith in him to defend the hot hand. Do you see this mentioned? No. What Rosen also neglected to mention was that when Reed went down in game 5, the Lakers collapsed on Chamberlain and Rosen's idol Jerry West took only 2 shots the 2nd half, missing both, while the Lakers committed 30 turnovers, trying to force the ball into Wilt, rather than taking the open shot.


The Deseret News - May 7, 1970





After Game 7:

The Village Voice - May 14, 1970







The Telegraph-Herald - Nov 26, 1970





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEPoIqIrprg

[Baller 24]

Well, Magic never had so great three year stretch like Bird from '84 to '86 when he was the best player on the world.

Agreed with this statement. Bird has arguably one of the best peaks in the history of the game, '84-'86 without a doubt best player on the planet, however in '87 & '88 you can make arguments that he's clearly the second, but maybe even the best player on the planet. Bird's peak is higher than Duncan's, on par with Shaq's, significantly greater than Bryant's, better than Olajuwon, and easily on par with Wilt's. Magic's kind of different, he's kind of got a decade of dominance, he's got stretches where he's been great, and stretches where he's a top 5 player. Bird's had a CLEAR 3 year stretch, but you can possibly make arguments for a possible 5 year stretch.