RealGM Top 100 #5

[penbeast0]

[quote="ElGee"]Fatal with just a ridiculously awesome post (again). I'll add that he broke his hand in a bar fight in 1985 . . . [quote]

Fatal, you have to stay out of those bars!

[An Unbiased Fan]

When has Garnett's entire game revolved around jump shots? It's clearly evident that he's a better low-post player than Robinson's ever been, same for Ewing.

KG's main scoring move is the jumpshot. His post game is decent, but really not much better than DRob's.

I'm just trying to figure out how KG is over DRob.

Scoring - DRob
Rebound - Draw
Defense - DRob
MVP shares - DRob
Peak - Draw

[lorak]

1981 - wins title. The most impressive feat this season no doubt being leading his team back from a 1-3 deficit against the Sixers in the ECF. Averaged 27/13/5 for the series. He was extremely clutch in the final moments of all three of the last wins, hit a big shot in the last minute of game 5, had 18 timely second half points in game 6 and hit the series winning shot in game 7.

One of the best series of all time. And Bird outplayed Dr J, who was MVP that year:

Code: Select all

   Bird   Dr J
PPG   26.7   19,9
TS%   55.4   48.8
RPG   13.4   5.0
APG   4.6   4.1
SPG   1.9   1.3
BPG   1.4   2.4
TPG   3.4   3.6


However that seems to be exception, because in other h2h matchups Dr J was better - in 1980 and 1982 (In 1985 he was too old, so I don't think it really matters).

1983 - Another solid season, but the team fizzled out in the playoffs. Bird had numerous issues in the Bucks series (which Bucks won 4-0). He had a groin injury, a dislocated finger on shooting hand and a bad case of the flu. He actually didn't even play in the game 2 (so technically he wasn't "swept") and had his minutes limited somewhat when he came back. His game logs from that series:

G1: 17/10/4 (7/17 FG)
G2: DNP
G3: 21/14/6/6 (10/22 FG)
G4: 18/11/8 (9/20 FG)

Overall 45.4 TS% in that series, 3.7 TPG and he was outplayed by Marques Johnson (who BTW, I hope will make our top 100)

1985 - After what was a ridiculous regular season that saw him average 29/11/7 on 59 TS% and win MVP, he picked an elbow injury on his shooting arm in the playoffs. Initially he played well but as the playoffs wore on his shooting got much worse. That Sixers series right before the finals is one of the worst I've ever seen from him shooting wise (he could not hit jumpshots for the life of him).

Well, in that series vs 76ers he still hit FTs (24/27, 88.9 %) and he never was really a jump shooter, so I doubt it was injury that affected his % from the field.

Swept MJ's Bulls in the first round (including outplaying young MJ in the fourth quarter of the elimination game,

It wasn't elimination game for Celtics ;]

1984 ECSF vs. Knicks - 39/12/10, dominates his matchup with King.

Didn't King also played well?

[keysoftheraw]

Vote: Shaq - most dominate peak of anyone, highest ceiling

Nominate: Charles Barkley - Another, I played with Jordan victim, but another guy with one of the highest ceilings

[lorak]

I understand, but if you look at this that way you should also admit that KG is more all around player than Magic. If not - why?

I don't look at it that way, you knocked Garnett for his inability to score on volume, so I shot one right back at you.

But please, answer - is KG more all around player than Magic. If not - why?

[Baller 24]

KG's main scoring move is the jumpshot. His post game is decent, but really not much better than DRob's.

I'm just trying to figure out how KG is over DRob.

Scoring - DRob
Rebound - Draw
Defense - DRob
MVP shares - DRob
Peak - Draw

How is defense clear advantage to Robinson, when Garnett has clearly anchored a historic defense? Peak form Garnett is still the better player, considering even despite him not getting past LA, he's still considered the best player in the league in '04, and was still the most important piece to their championship run in '08 both the regular season and playoffs---clearly evident. Also passing, Garnett is significantly greater.

KG's main scoring move is the jumpshot. His post game is decent, but really not much better than DRob's.

I am dumbfounded that you're actually defending the post game of David Robinson (I really haven't seen anyone literally defend this aspect of his game and turn it as an advantage), when he's been a face-up player his entire career. Patrick Ewing, who posses similar qualities has on numerous occasions been considered a better back-to-basket player than that of David Robinson (one of his major knocks). Garnett is very evidently a better back-to-basket player than either, and it's an area he operated numerously in Minny to take advantage of his elite point-forward skills.

[Fencer reregistered]

I'd like to add that I think there are five guys who have NO black marks against being regarded as the GOAT, other than the existence of the other four, namely Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Jordan.

All won lots of championships.
All won lots of MVP awards.
All played at a transcendent level.

And none was known as selfish, lazy, a bad teammate, a choker, or anything like that, except to a small extent that was heavily outweighed by positive marks in the same categories.

Choker "Tragic" Johnson? Heavily clutch later on.
Sullen coach-killer Magic? Sunny team up-lifter later on.
Not-so-hard-practicer Bill Russell? At the core of a team that stuck together, worked hard, and so on.

By way of contrast:

Wilt -- lazy/selfish, to an extent not outweighed by a few seasons where he wasn't. (And even from those seasons I don't like some of the me-first quotes.)

Shaq -- dumped by three franchises, didn't rehab aggressively, etc.

Duncan -- not really transcendent play, at least to my eyes.

Kobe -- obnoxious and at least intermittently selfish for much of his career, although he seems to have reformed in recent years

Hakeem -- not as many successes as the first five I listed.

Frankly, I think Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Bird are an "Immortal Five", rather than that they+Wilt are an "Immortal Six".

[ronnymac2]

I'd like to add that I think there are five guys who have NO black marks against being regarded as the GOAT, other than the existence of the other four, namely Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Jordan.

All won lots of championships.
All won lots of MVP awards.
All played at a transcendent level.

And none was known as selfish, lazy, a bad teammate, a choker, or anything like that, except to a small extent that was heavily outweighed by positive marks in the same categories.

Choker "Tragic" Johnson? Heavily clutch later on.
Sullen coach-killer Magic? Sunny team up-lifter later on.
Not-so-hard-practicer Bill Russell? At the core of a team that stuck together, worked hard, and so on.

By way of contrast:

Wilt -- lazy/selfish, to an extent not outweighed by a few seasons where he wasn't. (And even from those seasons I don't like some of the me-first quotes.)

Shaq -- dumped by three franchises, didn't rehab aggressively, etc.

Duncan -- not really transcendent play, at least to my eyes.

Kobe -- obnoxious and at least intermittently selfish for much of his career, although he seems to have reformed in recent years

Hakeem -- not as many successes as the first five I listed.

Frankly, I think Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Bird are an "Immortal Five", rather than that they+Wilt are an "Immortal Six".

So having injuries and illnesses that ended your career before you really wanted to retire aren't massive black marks on players? It's not Tim Duncan's or Shaq's fault that Bird hurt his back or Magic got sick. The reality is that those things happened. If you're going to count things like that, you better be fair to everybody involved.

[fatal9]

Overall 45.4 TS% in that series, 3.7 TPG and he was outplayed by Marques Johnson (who BTW, I hope will make our top 100)

Swept MJ's Bulls in the first round (including outplaying young MJ in the fourth quarter of the elimination game,

It wasn't elimination game for Celtics ;]

Meant for the Bulls (can't be an elimination game if you sweep someone ). And regarding '83, he definitely didn't play like Bird, decent all-around contribution still, but how much of a pass you want to give him depends on how you view injuries as an excuse for players. When a player has to miss a game, I think that's significant.

Didn't King also played well?

nope...he did play well in the home games of that series though.



^ this was i think late third or early fourth quarter when celtics were already up 20-25 pts in the game and Bird was minutes away from going to the bench. King got a few baskets in garbage time to make the final boxscore look pretty, but Bird poured it on starting in the first quarter. no disrespect to King, he took an overmatched squad to 7 games against the champs and had multiple 40 point games in the series.

[ronnymac2]

David Robinson has the biggest on-court flaws of any top 20 player, and those flaws contributed to consistently bad- relative to who he is being compared to- individual playoff performances. That's all that needs to be said about David Robinson.

Kevin Garnett is superior to David Robinson.

[Vinsanity420]

I'm just trying to figure out how KG is over DRob.

Scoring - DRob
Rebound - Draw
Defense - DRob
MVP shares - DRob
Peak - Draw

How much of an advantage are you giving D-Rob on offense? D-Rob's style of play wasn't all that difficult to defend, and that's why his playoff scoring took a good strong dive. It makes more sense to take KG, who can open up things for his teammates with his passing game even if his own shot is off.

Defense - By how much? It certainly can't be a clear cut advantage for either.

Peak- KG by a fair amount. No version of D-Rob is as great as 04 KG.

[colts18]

I'd like to add that I think there are five guys who have NO black marks against being regarded as the GOAT, other than the existence of the other four, namely Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Jordan.

All won lots of championships.
All won lots of MVP awards.
All played at a transcendent level.

And none was known as selfish, lazy, a bad teammate, a choker, or anything like that, except to a small extent that was heavily outweighed by positive marks in the same categories.

Choker "Tragic" Johnson? Heavily clutch later on.
Sullen coach-killer Magic? Sunny team up-lifter later on.
Not-so-hard-practicer Bill Russell? At the core of a team that stuck together, worked hard, and so on.

By way of contrast:

Wilt -- lazy/selfish, to an extent not outweighed by a few seasons where he wasn't. (And even from those seasons I don't like some of the me-first quotes.)

Shaq -- dumped by three franchises, didn't rehab aggressively, etc.

Duncan -- not really transcendent play, at least to my eyes.

Kobe -- obnoxious and at least intermittently selfish for much of his career, although he seems to have reformed in recent years

Hakeem -- not as many successes as the first five I listed.

Frankly, I think Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Bird are an "Immortal Five", rather than that they+Wilt are an "Immortal Six".

Shaq has more prime years than Bird has seasons in his career.

Shaq from 1998-2003:

Regular season:
28.1 PPG
11.8 Reb
3.1 AST
2.8 Turnovers
2.4 Blk
.577 FG%
.585 TS%
29.9 PER
.255 WS/48

He lead the league in PER and FG% every year from 98-02

Postseason:
29.3 PPG
13.7 Reb
3.0 AST
2.4 BLK
.554 FG%
.565 TS%
29.6 PER
.228 WS/48

During the 3peat years he averaged 30-15-3, .55 FG%, 29.3 PER (that's right, his PER was better outside the 3 peat years than during them). In the finals he averaged 36-15-4, 3 blk, 60 FG%. To put Shaq's finals run into perspective, he had a 20-10 and 52 FG% in every single game of the 15 game finals run and had 30-10 in 13 out of 15 games (including every game of Nets and Pacers series).

[Baller 24]

But please, answer - is KG more all around player than Magic. If not - why?

All-around? Are we talking about the whole package from being two-way dominant to having elite skills in every area? Sure. Though, you're making it sound as if they're automatically considered a superior player, which evidently is not considered the case between Magic v Garnett.

Robertson doesn't get that same pass, his peak/prime years consisted of very limited team success, his playoff performances aren't really impressive either, and even though at a later age he was an essential piece to a historically very underrated Bucks team, Garnett was more essential to his only historical championship. Both have a lot more similarities, but I believe at some point you have to state defense, and it's no secret that he's very dominant..

[ronnymac2]

I'll repost this Shaq vs. Bird:

More seasons: 19-13
More prime seasons: 15-12
Better Prime: Shaq was 30-15 for 3 straight playoffs
Longer Peak: 12 years-10 years
All-star games: 15-12
All-NBA teams: 15-10 (Shaq had harder competition)
Better Peak: Shaq 2000-2002>Bird 84-86
Better PER and WS
More rings: 4 to 3
Better defender
-Shaq had 5 straight PER titles, and 10 FG% titles
Playoffs:
-Shaq's Pts, rebs, asts went up
-Bird's numbers declined in the playoffs
This is what Shaq did in the playoffs from 98-03:
31-10-3
27-12-2
31-15-3
30-15-3
29-13-3
27-15-4


If you just put up Shaq's first 13 seasons vs. Bird, it's no comparison.

Shaq averaged 26-12-3, 3 blks, 58 FG%, Better PER, better WS. In the playoffs he averaged 27-13-3.

I don't think anyone in history can compare to Shaq's 98-03 6 year prime other than MJ and Kareem.

I've yet to see anybody respond to this post.

For the sake of accuracy, Shaq did not have three straight 30-15 playoffs, he had two.

[ronnymac2]

i don't have a problem with him going 5 but i do have a problem when people poo-poo the "immortal six" as if it's an antiquated and arbitrary grouping. no. those 6 guys are balls-out better. there has been nobody since MJ to dominate the game the same way that those 6 guys have - winning multiple rings and championships with such over-the-top dominance that everyone else is playing for 2nd place. Not Duncan, not Shaq, not even Kobe. With Shaq his dominance was woefully short especially given the context of his "long" career, with Duncan it was not nearly dominant enough, and Kobe came too little too late. Lebron is ringless and until further notice, gutless as well. I see no reason why the immortal 6 until proven otherwise is a fraudulent ideal.

This is a problematic post. They aren't balls-out better. Have you read some of the other posts here regarding certain players, especially Hakeem/Duncan/Shaq?

Mind you, I don't actually have a problem with anybody thinking MJ/Wilt/Magic/Bird/Russell/KAJ are the six best ever in some order, as long as their is proper reasoning accompanying such a list. You're misinformed if you think those six really are on another level.

[Doctor MJ]

I think it would be a shame for Wilt to slip any further, his detractors will mention that he wasn't particularly clutch, and they'd have a legitimate claim, but besides that one factor Wilt was the most dominant and unstoppable force the league has ever seen. I think top 5 all-time suits him quite well and he deserves to be slotted in before Bird, Shaq and Duncan.

Oh, I think it's pretty clear that we've pointed out quite a bit more problems with Wilt than lack of clutch-ness. Anyone who hasn't seen that, really just hasn't been putting effort in. It's no great sin to be less than utterly devoted to an internet basketball project, but people really need to stop acting like we're bashing Wilt for one minor thing. There's been more discussion surrounding Wilt in this project than anyone else, and it's really had some great stuff on both sides.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm going to leave the Robinson stuff for that thread. Awesome player and productivity but KG vs Robinson reminds me of Kobe vs Lebron. Robinson/Lebron have the regular season advantage due to awesome raw talent and ability. Kobe and KG are better in the playoffs because skill/fundamental based go tos gets you through the tighter defensive vice of the playoffs

[colts18]

KG's main scoring move is the jumpshot. His post game is decent, but really not much better than DRob's.

I'm just trying to figure out how KG is over DRob.

Scoring - DRob
Rebound - Draw
Defense - DRob
MVP shares - DRob
Peak - Draw

How is defense clear advantage to Robinson, when Garnett has clearly anchored a historic defense? Peak form Garnett is still the better player, considering even despite him not getting past LA, he's still considered the best player in the league in '04, and was still the most important piece to their championship run in '08 both the regular season and playoffs---clearly evident.

If you are going to argue that KG had a historically great defense, you have to mention all the mediocre defenses he had in Minnesota that weren't better than Dirk's defenses. Something is missing in the KG is the best defender of his era narrative. It's like arguing that Jason Kidd is one of the best offensive PG of his era while ignoring that he hasn't really anchored many decent offenses.

[An Unbiased Fan]

How is defense clear advantage to Robinson, when Garnett has clearly anchored a historic defense? Peak form Garnett is still the better player, considering even despite him not getting past LA, he's still considered the best player in the league in '04, and was still the most important piece to their championship run in '08 both the regular season and playoffs---clearly evident. Also passing, Garnett is significantly greater.

That criteria is kinda arbitrary. KG won the MVP in 04', and lost in the WCF. DRob won the MVP in 1995, and lost to Hakeem's Rockets. It's hard give KG so much credit for 08' when his Minny team was awful the year before. He went to a team with Pierce & Allen. And had Thibs install that great defensive scheme(which also turned around the Bulls). DRob was a huge part of the 99' title. He still put up 16/10 on 56% TS.

As for defense......

Drob's team's DRtgs:
1989, before DRob - 107.9(#13)
1990 - 104.2(#3)
1991 - 103.3(#1)
1992 - 104.1(#1)
1993 - 106.8(#10)
1994 - 104.6(#9)
1995 - 105.4(#5)
1996 - 103.5(#3)
1997, DRob's hurt - 112.3(#29)

1998, paired with TD - 99.4(#2)
1999, paired with TD - 95.0(#1)

So what we see is that DRob is the better defensive anchor. And that when he finally got defensive help, the Spurs were even better.


KG's team;s DRtgs:
1996 - 109.8(#20)
1997 - 107.1(#15)
1998 - 107.1(#23)
1999 - 101.5(#11)
2000 - 103.4(#12)
2001 - 103.7(#16)
2002 - 105.3(#15)
2003 - 103.8(#16)
2004 - 99.7(#6)
2005 - 106.6(#15)
2006 - 104.5(#10)
2007 - 107.9(#21)
2008 - 98.9(#1)
2009 - 102.3(#2)
2010 - 103.89(#5)
2011 - 100.3(#2)

I don't see how KG is an equal defensive anchor. I didn't even inlcuded the 00' Spur years.

I am dumbfounded that you're actually defending the post game of David Robinson (I really haven't seen anyone literally defend this aspect of his game and turn it as an advantage), when he's been a face-up player his entire career. Patrick Ewing, who posses similar qualities has on numerous occasions been considered a better back-to-basket player than that of David Robinson (one of his major knocks). Garnett is very evidently a better back-to-basket player than either, and it's an area he operated numerously in Minny to take advantage of his elite point-forward skills.

Post game isn't soley about back to the basket. DRob's post moves usually came after he blew by the defender and entered the paint. The major knock on DRob wasn't that he had no post game, but that he was soft. Hence the Mermaid tag.

And KG wasn't an elite point-forward, that would be someone like Bird or Lebron. KG was a very good playmaker for a big, but it comes nowhere close to making up for his lack of efficiency.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Larry Bird

As much as argue vehemently for Magic over Bird, there isn't exactly a tremendous gap between them. Let there be no doubt here: Bird was a tremendous IQ player who was more than the sum of his stats. The way he led a minor program like Indiana State for the college finals, and then became the catalyst for transforming the Celtics from bad to elite really should hammer that home.

Re: Duncan getting some attention. I had thought that Duncan might challenge Bird on my list a while back, but the more I look at it I can't get there. Duncan was a great player, but people are overstating his intangibles a bit here. I don't want to take anything away from him, but he was extremely fortunate to have Robinson on his team to start, then fortunate that the dominant dynasty in the league self-destructed, and then fortunate his the Spurs build masterfully around him.

I know people are wont to forget it because of the 1st round exit, but the Spurs did just have the best record in the league with Duncan playing 28 minutes per game.

None of this makes me say that Duncan won't be my picking quite soon, but I have a tough time looking at him in comparison to someone like Hakeem, and thinking he truly gave his team as much. (Incidentally, expecting to vote for Hakeem after Bird's in)

Re: Duncan's leadership. Compared to what Shaq & Kobe did in LA, Duncan's leadership was fantastic. However, people overrate the concept of "leading by example". The best leaders actively mentor and regularly inspire. I'd love to have Duncan on my team, but I've never felt he "owned" his teammates the way a Magic Johnson did.

Nomination: Still, Garnett

A couple people are wondering about Garnett vs Robinson, and I think it's a good question for them to be asking.

I think one thing to really understand is the longevity here. Y'all have probably seen my statements about Garnett's defense based on +/-. By those metrics, Garnett is still the best defender in the league per minute in his 16th year, and in the top 2 or 3 by total impact. That's stunning.

Now remember: Robinson only played 7 years before his big injury, and after that you could only even argue for 1 more year as being within his prime. This gap is a big difference.

Peak-wise is more debatable. I won't say you're insane to prefer Robinson there. However, to those who think Robinson has the clear edge based on statistics, I think they should really look closely at the playoffs before making that call.

People will point out that Garnett's stats in some ways went down to in the playoffs, but I'd say they rely too much on shooting efficiency. Dude averaged about 25/15/5 during his last 3 playoff years in Minnesota (his true peak), and his team never truly got upset (losses to the Lakers were expected). Robinson never averaged 15 boards or 5 assists in the playoffs, and never that amoung of PPG over a 3 year period.