Will too much muscle mess up your skills?

[Got em Coach]

yeah it will thats why goku didnt want to fight in the ascended ssj form, instead he mastered his regular weight on ssj1 so he could have power and speed. duh

No he didn't want to fight in ascended ssj form because it was too weak to beat Perfect Cell with. Thats why he went past ascended and ultra ssj and became a full power ssj. The form balances power and speed not his own training. GOD

I'll stop you guys there.

Ascended SSJ form is BS made up by Trunks/Vegeta. It's just forefully jacking yourself up in SSJ form. Their physical strength was higher but their speed suffered massively. It's like going to the gym and pumping iron for 2 hrs and coming out all huge and intense for the brief period after.

Goku wanted himself and Gohan to master SSJ mode (by being able to stay in that mode w/o expending energy) so that they didn't have to exert themselves to transform and obviously have better energy management.

Goku never went ascended or ultra, he was just on the cusp of SSJ2. And the only reason Goku could even hang with Cell was because Cell wanted a fair fight and purposely lowered his own power.

And yes, more muscle mass can inhibit your skills. You have less range of motion, more weight bearing on your legs, and larger muscles usually are slow twitch and fatigue easily

[wilhelmthe1st]

Because they wouldn't be able to hit them.

Also Goku had instant transmission. It's not like he needed the speed.

Instant Transmission doesn't quite work like that. It's more of an out-of-battle technique. I can only really remember Goku using it in battle once or twice, like when he is fighting Pikkon in the Otherworld Tournament and is getting his ass kicked with his flame attack, so he powers up a Kamehameha and then ITs right beside Pikkon to hit him off the fighting platform.

[wilhelmthe1st]

I'll stop you guys there.

Ascended SSJ form is BS made up by Trunks/Vegeta. It's just forefully jacking yourself up in SSJ form. Their physical strength was higher but their speed suffered massively. It's like going to the gym and pumping iron for 2 hrs and coming out all huge and intense for the brief period after.

Goku wanted himself and Gohan to master SSJ mode (by being able to stay in that mode w/o expending energy) so that they didn't have to exert themselves to transform and obviously have better energy management.

Goku never went ascended or ultra, he was just on the cusp of SSJ2. And the only reason Goku could even hang with Cell was because Cell wanted a fair fight and purposely lowered his own power.

And yes, more muscle mass can inhibit your skills. You have less range of motion, more weight bearing on your legs, and larger muscles usually are slow twitch and fatigue easily

Found a video as well:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF2rL6bifWI[/youtube]

Also backs up my earlier points.

[Hon-essim]

These are pros. They don't really build too much anything. Their lifestyle pretty much means unlike trying out USSJ for the first time, these guys actually have an off-season to get used to their new body.

It's more like maybe blind muscle sculpting gets combined with added muscles and sometimes that takes away from skills training. Other times it's the wrong skills and not actually the training part. Other times it's the lack of evolution in their skills.

Dwight and Rose for example are monsters and their weight training know how and regimen probably far surpasses MJ's or Shaq's based on how fast they close the gap in physicality even though they are arguably less gifted players. Yet even with this and their probable superior work ethic, they don't focus on the urgency of the situation and they find themselves in disappointing moments everytime they meet a smart adversary in the playoffs. Dwight doesn't train enough in his confidence so all that muscle becomes over-compensation rather than an additional edge. Rose similarly has an inflated sense of his offensive success in the regular season so all the off season effort is wasted in the post-season when he lets his guard down.

If you want to use a DBZ moment, compare it to how Freeza was bulking up to 100% not some urgent form Trunks has to assume because there wasn't enough of an off-season to test it.

Freeza had tons of success in the regular planets with no legendary SSJ. By far if it weren't for the fillers, he arguably could be the most powerful since there's no proof his father is as strong as him and even if he was - Freeza was far younger. Freeza is the Dwight and Rose and Lebron of the NBA. They are battle tested individuals who can turn it up season after season and scare the rankings for how much dominant they are at such a young age and how much playoff battles they've already gone through in terms of attrition.

However Freeza rarely goes at 100% because he doesn't need to. Going so much as to toy with his prey. Dwight even hinted at this in an interview. Something about training with Olajuwon teaching him the difference between a ninja and a mercenary. For the most part, Freeza is a ninja and while ninjas are cool there's a reason why in reality they are assassins. Their moves are designed to be go to moves and yet Lebron, Dwight and to an extent Rose' go to moves are not varied and optimized enough to really become fall back moves. Instead their secret moves end up becoming predictable power up moves they fall back on.

This is why Freeza not only lost his squad but allowed Goku to reach Namek and become the legendary SSJ. Zaza, Barea, Gasol, Perkins even Lebron when he guarded Rose wasn't aiming to "beat" Dwight/Lebron/Rose. Same way Krillin and Gohan and Vegeta wasn't aiming to beat Freeza.

They were simply aiming to limit Freeza and hoping a miracle would happen. When that miracle happened, Freeza still had a chance. After all he was the one who could go 100%. He was the one with experience dealing with that type of power while Goku had to get used to it on short notice.

However Freeza had the wrong mindset even in his off-season and it finally caught up. Just as Dwight still had his moves, Rose was still a pg with improved playmaking and Lebron as horrible as he was posting up still was someone who could use that silly foul on Barea as an aggressive motivation - their muscular training had reduced the mental aspect of their instincts under pressure even though they aren't as mentally weak. Freeza similarly could have battled against Goku in a war of attrition in which he could probably win but his muscular pride in his super secret ninja move being unbeaten made him forget the difference between a super powered mercenary who is mentally more ready to beat him for a greater cause than his own self deluded value of proving his ninja moves superior. The result was that Freeza ends up losing because he tried to play the superior game of his opponent. A game that even there is close to equal but every frustrated technicals, every failed drives, every humiliating words edged it closer to the mercenary who grew more motivationally stronger as the battle go on where as the muscle guys who hid behind those muscles slowly crumbled and seemingly choked themselves out.

The USSJ failure is much closer to Gasol's failure the first time against Boston. Up to that point in time, the legendary SSJ was already seen as some ultimate unbeatable transformation and that was who Gasol was when he went to LA. Unlike Goku who had faced superior opponents before that nearly killed him while he wasn't a SSJ, Trunks came from a timeline when that transformation was the key. Similarly when Gasol came to LA, it was like he became part of the unspoken NBA champion not just because of the prestige of playing with Kobe but because of the ease the way LA went through almost every team even against the Spurs were Gasol and Kobe simply activated their patented pick and roll and it jarred the normally quick to adapt Spurs.

Then suddenly here comes Cell who were making it tough for the Super Saiyan to perform even on equal terms. Trunks and Gasol had to do something so they tried compensating for who they were and it just hurt the team more. The USSJ may be flawed in that it made the bearer slow but to someone like Trunks who had an exposure to the SSJ transformation as a god send and not just an additional power-up, the USSJ felt like the perfect instinctive back up if the powered up SSJ wasn't enough. And to an extent he's right. USSJ may be slow but SSJ's are darn fast to begin with. Not to mention durable. Under the right opponent who wasn't as mentally cold blooded and hungry as Boston or Cell that would have unnerved them enough in the same way Goku messed up Freeza. I.E. it was a near perfect considering the solution basically meant creating SSJ 2 which at that point had no reference to and Gohan only achieved because of his superior power to Trunks. Unfortunately the solution ended up being a mistake because just like Gasol, Trunks was trying to play a perfect game but although it was perfect, it was still imperfect against the opposing team. Trunks in his attempt to unlock the perfect solution within his body ends up forgetting to look at who his opponent is.

The only comparable element this has to Lebron, is that Lebron might have also tried to play a perfect game and forgot to factor in the way Dallas is and the way Miami is as a roster. That resulted in him becoming more passive. He thought he was being the perfect Pippen to Wade with the triple doubles and the play making and he completely forget that the way Miami was built, they needed Lebron to simply contribute to the team.

The problem with the comparison is that Lebron is on Gohan's level. Even if SSJ2 Gohan went USSJ2, he could have hurt Cell. More importantly, Gohan would realize that at his power level, he needn't go USSJ2 to compensate for the power level since SSJ2 was enough. He just has to get mad.

Instead Gohan does an about face and Wade err... Goku ends up having to bail his ass out there and thankfully the NBA Finals isn't a do or die game but nonetheless Wade ends up injurying himself trying to compensate for Lebron and unfortunately Lebron didn't unleash the beast. Of course the comparison ends there since Dallas is in no way the Perfect Cell of the NBA.

[gino_giode]

welp, what I meant was never went ultra/ascended in battle because he understood it was disadvantageous

But props for pulling that clip because I totally didn't remember Goku doing that in the Hyperbolic time chamber

[FANOFNBA]

nba players dont have that much muscle mass though. karl malone was one of the most muscular players i can think of and it didnt seem to bother his skillset.

[cb4_89]

DBZ is still great after all these years.

[BossHoggin]

This is just something black athletes (usually fast WRs/DBS) believe in, then the really good players still make it to the bigs and end up adding mass and are still good.

And if someone puts on mass and can't adapt his skills to be the best, then why are we even talking about him? He wasn't good anyways, he probably then proceeded to drop out of a D1 school and is playing in some crap D3 school.

[karolis1221]

I'll stop you guys there.

Ascended SSJ form is BS made up by Trunks/Vegeta. It's just forefully jacking yourself up in SSJ form. Their physical strength was higher but their speed suffered massively. It's like going to the gym and pumping iron for 2 hrs and coming out all huge and intense for the brief period after.

Goku wanted himself and Gohan to master SSJ mode (by being able to stay in that mode w/o expending energy) so that they didn't have to exert themselves to transform and obviously have better energy management.

Goku never went ascended or ultra, he was just on the cusp of SSJ2. And the only reason Goku could even hang with Cell was because Cell wanted a fair fight and purposely lowered his own power.

And yes, more muscle mass can inhibit your skills. You have less range of motion, more weight bearing on your legs, and larger muscles usually are slow twitch and fatigue easily

Found a video as well:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF2rL6bifWI[/youtube]

Also backs up my earlier points.

i thought he is going to **** in his pants while transforming

[VictorPage44]

Putting on too much muscle mass can mess with your game. Basketball has a lot to do with balance, flexibility, and range of motion. If you're just focusing on putting on as much muscle mass as quickly as possible, those other areas will oftentimes get overlooked. Lifting weights, and not allowing enough time for your muscles to repair, causes your muscles to shorten, hurting your range of motion. Adding extra weight alone, without focusing on maintaining balance/control of that added weight, will obviously throw off your game.

IMO basketball players dont need to ever pick up a weight. There are more effective workouts that focus on functional strength, i.e. your strength/balance relative to your own body weight. Way too much emphasis has been put on weight-lifting in general. It doesnt matter how much you can bench or deadlift. Pullups and single-leg squats are far more indicative of functional strength.

[Def Swami]

You can't have bulk and skill?

[PippenAintEasy]

What the **** are you guys talking about.

[SauceOnRice]

What the **** are you guys talking about.

Get Out

[peja_the_legend]

I've always thought that Iguodalas huge Popeye-style arms have prevented him from developing a proper jumpshot.I'm also wondering, are there many players build like bodybuilders who are also consistent jump shooters?

[Pharmcat]

adding muscle will probably alter your shot

i used to be a able to hit jumpshots, but then i hit the weightroom, and I cant sink a jumpshot now (i probably hit 1-2 out of every 10 now), everything is strong and of the backrim....of course if I had the time to work on it for a couple months, im sure it could be fixed....but yea i do believe adding muscle will alter your shot a bit.

[Storm Surge]

Adding muscle is proven to affect your shot, bit it also affects your speed/quickness and can also lead to more injuries if you become unbalanced (see tmac)

You see what I'm sayin I'm super sayin like Goku

[ManualRam]

I've always thought that Iguodalas huge Popeye-style arms have prevented him from developing a proper jumpshot.I'm also wondering, are there many players build like bodybuilders who are also consistent jump shooters?

not built like body builders but karl malone and david robinson had shredded arms. both good shooters for their positions.

[Dr Pepper]

It depends. For most its easier to get bigger and better at weights than getting better at basketball. The more time you spend lifting weights is less time you spend on the court. Some players were small growing up and later turned into giants which gave them a versatile game early in their development.

David Robinson was a gymnast and a very coordinated and well-rounded athlete growing up. He also was a forward that grew into a 7 foot giant during his transition from high school to the end of college. Hakeem grew up on soccer and had the footwork and quickness to show for it. Etc etc

Its underrated how many hours it takes to really get better at basketball skills such as shooting like Ray Allen's development in his teenage years and how veteran shooters still spend hours honing their shot. Post-moves also require intensive practice along with nearly any other skill. When it comes to stuff like court vision and passing; those are areas that are hopefully developed early on since its hard to improve and practice on. Basketball skills are much harder to develop than weightlifting (for basketball), imo, especially after a player turns pro and has to juggle a marathon of a season and a busier schedule.

[damo[23]]

I am sure its covered some where here.

Gaining muscle won't mess up your skills; but it has the potential to alter some of your game/abilities.

Shooting is muscle memory, as is dribbling etc... while some of it is natural (you haven't played in years, pick up a ball and you don't suck), a lot of it is just memory (same rhythm on the shot, timing, but you dont think about it).

If you just go in and pound weights and don't care about anything else - you'll alter that. Proper trainers can do it so as to not mess with it to much - plus if your practicing as much as players are - they'll adjust bit by bit as they gain the strength anyway.

The danger is speed and power - you gain power from the muscle, but you might loose speed, or lateral quickness, even jumps - could be due to more weight added, or the change in your muscle set up and the demands it requires. You may well get tired faster (needing more oxygen to pump to the muscles to keep blood flowing, lactic acid build up etc..).

There are risks, however, me as a layman (although extremely active in the gym etc...) I know this, sports trainers know the ins and outs ... and help - and its always developing.

Simply - is the risk there? Yes.
In this day and age of professional sport, will it happen? Not if they can help it.

[Sunk Cost]

DBZ fans have always amazed me