EG post Abe era started Nov 24, 2009 - Eval EG from then

[hands11]

There are many fair points here. Really, I don't think Ernie is that hard to assess though:

>< He has a good eye for talent, but not maturity.
>< He can follow a plan, but not set a good one himself.
>< He can make good incremental trades.
>< He has no imagination when it comes to playing with cap numbers and salaries.

Add it all up and you have a solid but unimpressive GM. You can do worse. A LOT worse. But if you have the chance to get a better guy with vision and cap creativity, you do it.

^^^
This is about as good of a brief as I've seen in this thread.

Taking up the question of EG post-Abe, it seems clear he is following orders. Making decent incremental trades with the notion of generally getting younger and gaining future picks and cap space. I grade him a C for this present era, sort of treading water, squirrling away resources for some future. . .something. I get Ted's general vision, but I don't know if EG is the GM to find the best mix of smart picks, shrewd trades, and aggressive free agency signings, needed to get the Wizards truely into an EC title contender.

Present era, sort of treading water ? Come on. A grade of C since Nov 24, 2009. I guess the list of moves needs to be updated because I think you are missing out on the history. Even if you want to say most of the moves where average (picking Wall, moving AJ, CB and Haywood, Mike James, DS, etc), the set up in cap space to get Kirk for a cheap rental turned into three first round picks would get him to a B. Then moving the worst contract in the league for Lewis on a shorter contract gets him even higher than a B just based on the contract value B+. Add in the fact that Lewis is a way better personality than Gil and what... B++

Wow, Gil is getting worse month after month.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_ ... ert-arenas

Feb numbers are .295 FG and .162 from 3 range

As for Lewis, he had a good January but Feb was really tough for him as he fight through the knee issue. But he will get past it.

Now not adding someone back on the team like Hopla is a valid argument. But how many teams have that ? Aren't the assistants with the Wizards good for anything ? Doesn't Sam know how to teach shooting? Now a dedicated quality big coach with name recognition would be nice. What has Ted have to say on that topic? Has anyone emailed him ?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4195465

[Illuminaire]

Hmmm. What if EG channels his inner Pritchard and negotiates a Nick Collison style contract for Nick Young?

Let's say Young and the Wizards agree on a 5-year $25M contract. EG could pay Young $10M in his first season, and then pay him just $3.75M a year thereafter.

Meh, it's probably better to just sign him to a $5M a year deal and still use the other $5.4M for BOYD deals.

Hmmm indeed. Timing wise, when do we have to extend the qualifying offer? That's going to kill our cap space for BOYD deals until we get Nick signed or waived.

I'm just wondering if we'd need to decide before the draft, or if we could tease out some BOYD potentials first, then figure Nick out after we test the market for taking on other contracts. I guess we can still make the phone calls even if we don't technically have the space, but we'd definitely need to have all our plans in order.

Illuminaire apologizes for the stream of consciousness rambles. He's a little out of it at the moment.

[closg00]

Very disappointed in Mike Prada's blog titled:
Is Ernie Grunfeld The Right Man To Be The Wizards' GM In The Future?

Prada ends with:

Three straight seasons deep in the lottery is one mother of a black mark, and not many GMs get the chance to rebuild their foundation. Has Ernie earned his? Do you trust him to build a contender around John Wall? No matter who ends up at the helm, I'm ready for the ride.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2011/3/1/ ... al-manager

Lame, lame, lame Mike, grow a pair and make a stand one-way or the other

[hands11]

Very disappointed in Mike Prada's blog titled:
Is Ernie Grunfeld The Right Man To Be The Wizards' GM In The Future?

Prada ends with:

Three straight seasons deep in the lottery is one mother of a black mark, and not many GMs get the chance to rebuild their foundation. Has Ernie earned his? Do you trust him to build a contender around John Wall? No matter who ends up at the helm, I'm ready for the ride.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2011/3/1/ ... al-manager

Lame, lame, lame Mike, grow a pair and make a stand one-way or the other

In short, today’s GM is a chess player cum soothsayer cum gambler who is watched by the fanbase closer than a radical English teacher in Beaumont, Texas. Knowing full well the volatile waters in which they swim, the GM realizes the full impact of a trade won’t be known until farther down the line, and anything short of a slam dunk could result in disaster. Know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em the song goes (I hate country), and judging by the results so far, I’d say our GM could end up being a cut above average. But will that be enough?

Sounds like he giving him a B

As for tearing this thing down and accumulating assets, I think he has done a decisive and very good job. For that I think it is easy to give him a B+ or an A.

Now building a winner takes a different skill set depending on how you do it and no doubt some of that takes luck.

For me, I think the first step in a rebuild is knowing you have the right HC. If this system truly is not what we need, then that will paint everything. Like I hated EFJ as the HC because of his no D approach and weave and heave.

I like the pieces we are accumulating. So they have mostly cleaned house and they have young players who project to be good. That takes skill but unless you get really lucky with these young players developing quickly, at some point you need to sign vets, and they tend to have longer and more expensive contracts. In order to do that well, you better know you have the coach and system you want. If not, you are building a team for a losing coach and system like we did for EFJ.

They don't have to work this all out right now. They have another year they can go where they play a mostly young team and they are under the cap. The new CBA is in front of them also and maybe a lock out. But some times between now and the summer after this up coming season, they will need to be sure who they want as HC over the next 4-5 years.

More will be revealed as this plays out. I'm guessing one more year of Flip then maybe Sam takes over. The question is.. why offense would Sam run ?

[Nivek]

They could do that or they could stay the course and target being where they want in two years and beyond, which is the actual plan.

That is two years more development of Wall, Nick, Booker, Seraphin, McGee and Crawford plus two years of two first round picks or the assets we get for them or for one of them ( this can play out several ways and it's why they have value). And after only one of those two years, they could buy out Lewis to gain cap space or trade his expiring for assets. As for Dray, that is the only big issue still on the table to me. Does he grow up or not and if not, when do you move him? His contract is more than reasonable for his size and talent level so moving shouldn't be a huge issue. He is 25 making 5.9M. He will be 26 making 6.4M. He is likely to get the summer to get back on track. The kid is averaging 16pts, 8 boards and 2 assists in what most would call a bad year for him coming off injury and getting injured plenty this year. That is far from a crap contract. He needs to get more focused and efficient but he isn't a bad contract.

Reading this team as cap struck in any way misreading the situation entirely.

Yi is not getting resigned for 5.4M So he is either gone or signed cheap. AT is likely gone. Dude can't stay healthy. But Nick is more than likely getting signed.

This organization is in good shape. Only way I can see someone seeing it differently is because they are bitter at the record and they are holding onto the lost 5th round pick. Forget that pick. Different situation. Different owner. That is behind them. Start counting from Nov 24, 2009 and more forward with this new owner and things are looking good for the future.

Biggest thing I see changing would be a coaching change. So you that and lots of question regarding the CBA. Those things will add more paint to the picture.

I know the CBA is about to change cap rules -- we'll see how much. The point I attempted to make is that under current rules, signing Young -- even to the 5-year, $25 million deal nate suggests -- would prevent the Wizards from offering a maximum salary contract to a free agent even in 2012 unless the Wizards can make other roster moves to rid themselves of salary.

My hope is that the new CBA offers another Allan Houston clause, which the Wizards could use to get Lewis's deal off the cap. That would give them the flexibility to sign Young, do another year of BOYD, and pursue max salary talent.

[Dat2U]

^^^
This is about as good of a brief as I've seen in this thread.

Taking up the question of EG post-Abe, it seems clear he is following orders. Making decent incremental trades with the notion of generally getting younger and gaining future picks and cap space. I grade him a C for this present era, sort of treading water, squirrling away resources for some future. . .something. I get Ted's general vision, but I don't know if EG is the GM to find the best mix of smart picks, shrewd trades, and aggressive free agency signings, needed to get the Wizards truely into an EC title contender.

Present era, sort of treading water ? Come on. A grade of C since Nov 24, 2009. I guess the list of moves needs to be updated because I think you are missing out on the history. Even if you want to say most of the moves where average (picking Wall, moving AJ, CB and Haywood, Mike James, DS, etc), the set up in cap space to get Kirk for a cheap rental turned into three first round picks would get him to a B. Then moving the worst contract in the league for Lewis on a shorter contract gets him even higher than a B just based on the contract value B+. Add in the fact that Lewis is a way better personality than Gil and what... B++

So wait. You want us to evaluate what Ernie has done but yet unless it a B+ or better your going to criticize the grade we give? What exactly is this thread supposed to be? You should name it "Agree with Hands11 or meet my wrath!".

The thread just reeks of the old arguments we used to have on this board. The Wizards are 37-23 when Caron starts. If you ignore the first 15 games of the season when they went 6-9, the Wizards are 23-12. If you ignore the first quarter where we were down 33-14, the Wizards won the other three quarters blah, blah, blah.

"If if and buts were candy and nuts oh what a party we'd have"

This is a thread of excuses just like we used to make for this team for years. It's so easy to blame it on the dead man. Maybe Abe did want to win now. Maybe Abe suggested to Ernie to make a move to help us win two years ago in between naps in his wheelchair. But it would be a massive stretch to suggest Abe told Ernie to trade a top 5 pick for backups. Maybe Abe wanted Ernie to go all in but going all in would have been acquiring Amare. Going all in does not equal Mike Miller and Randy Foye on expiring contracts.

Giving Ernie credit for realizing what everyone knew before the deadline last year doesn't sit well with me either. Everyone knew Jamison & Butler HAD to go. Had to. No if and buts about it. It would have been real wisdom had he realized that a year or two earlier, especially when Caron actually had some trade value. Of course lets not even mention Ernie selling off our best trade asset in Haywood so we could dump DeShawn so we could have enough money to buy a year of ArmYi. That was sheer brilliance right there.

Right now Ernie is showing he can follow orders. The Hinrich trade with Atlanta was a good one. He deserves credit for that but it doesn't mean he's playing chess. It means he can take directions and stay with the plan his boss laid out for him. Big whoop de doo. Give the man a cookie. The man is solidly a mediocre GM. Some good. Some bad and some blah. That means mediocre results. For all his stunning moves you point to, were still a joke of the NBA. We are still John Wall & The Fourteen Questionmarks.

[Illuminaire]

We are still John Wall & The Fourteen Questionmarks.

That's a terrible band name, but a great signature line.

[hands11]

I don't know what a max contract will look like but I would be very apprehensive to sign one.

They can crush a team when they go wrong.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

It's amazing to see how much some team are paying.

What kind of lux tax are these team paying?

[Nivek]

It depends on who you pay a maximum salary. The Spurs are probably pretty happy with Duncan. The Lakers with Kobe and Pau. Orlando with Howard. Dallas with Dirk, etc.

Some of these become heartbreak because of injury -- Redd, Yao, Arenas.

Some of the deals should never have been offered in the first place -- Kirilenko, Joe Johnson, Kenyon Martin, Zach Randolph, (ahem) Carmelo, Peja, Jason Richardson, Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy. Max money for non-max caliber players is the problem.

And yes, some would say the Wizards never should have offered Arenas max money because of his knee. At the time, it seemed like a reasonable risk to take. Players hurt their knees and return to form after surgery/rehab all the time. It didn't seem likely that he would need a leg transplant.

[W. Unseld]

If it hasn't been mentioned here I think EG also deserves credit for trying to bring in Thibs to coach. I think it was Abe preventing him from flat out firing EJ. On Thibs part I don't buy that he didn't understand the situation coming in, I think his agent either told him he had something better coming soon or EJ (understandably) gave him a very cold reception.

[LyricalRico]

If it hasn't been mentioned here I think EG also deserves credit for trying to bring in Thibs to coach. I think it was Abe preventing him from flat out firing EJ. On Thibs part I don't buy that he didn't understand the situation coming in, I think his agent either told him he had something better coming soon or EJ (understandably) gave him a very cold reception.

[closg00]

If it hasn't been mentioned here I think EG also deserves credit for trying to bring in Thibs to coach. I think it was Abe preventing him from flat out firing EJ. On Thibs part I don't buy that he didn't understand the situation coming in, I think his agent either told him he had something better coming soon or EJ (understandably) gave him a very cold reception.

This will make a great work of fiction one of these days. Abe Pollin, in frail health and in the last years of his life, ruled with an iron fist, micro-managing Ernie's every move.

A strong GM would have set EFJ straight from jump and not allowed Thibs to be frozen-out. OTOH, Thibs being the smart man that he is, perhaps quickly made an assessment that the org was hopeless under Grunfeld's management.

[hands11]

If it hasn't been mentioned here I think EG also deserves credit for trying to bring in Thibs to coach. I think it was Abe preventing him from flat out firing EJ. On Thibs part I don't buy that he didn't understand the situation coming in, I think his agent either told him he had something better coming soon or EJ (understandably) gave him a very cold reception.

[Zonkerbl]

Something very fishy there happened for sure. Still think EG should have just fired EJ and hired Thibs.

[hands11]

Let me help you CCJ.

I still contend it all changed with EG was cleared of his old ownership. Since then, he operated well on his own and then he operated well with Ted.

EOTY.

[hands11]

Well its looking like Wall is on board with both EG and Flip. He is calling for them both to be back next year. Having that kind of support from your #1 pick is worth a lot. Wall didn't have to say these things. It shows Flip has not lost the team and Wall believes in what EG and Ted are doing.

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/nam ... on-wizards

[hands11]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nb ... story.html

This article takes a more neutral position but it points out several things I have used in defense of EG.

Grunfeld, whose contract expires after the 2012 season, has worked effectively within the confines of owner Ted Leonsis’s plan to rebuild the Wizards. He’s off to a good start in the first year of a project with no end date listed.

Viewing the Wizards’ bleak situation realistically last summer, Leonsis gave Grunfeld a list of tasks to complete, many ranging from difficult to seemingly impossible. Leonsis’s top fantasy wish-list item? Trade Gilbert Arenas.

Grunfeld surprised many longtime NBA followers (me included) in getting out from under Arenas’s contract, potentially saving the Wizards more than $30 million when he sent the former star to Orlando for Rashard Lewis in December.


“When Ted took over, he did have a blueprint of the kind of things he wanted to see and what direction he wanted the franchise to go in,” Grunfeld said Tuesday in a phone interview. “And that blueprint was to build through the draft, to develop our young players and to get cap flexibility moving forward.”

It’s fair to point out the Wizards are in this mess, in large part, because Grunfeld handed Arenas a six-year, $111-million contract in the summer of 2008.

But the late Abe Pollin was not interested in rebuilding, and Arenas was by far the team’s most talented player. From a business standpoint, Arenas drew people to Verizon Center. In the NBA, the worst thing isn’t being bad. The worst thing is being bad and irrelevant. “Our mandate was to get to the playoffs,” Grunfeld said.

-
I have always taken the position that is is a front office made up of the owner and GM and it is really hard to evaluate the GM without talking about the owner. I suggested one way to do this is the see how the GM operates under two different owners. This is something you don't often get to see so a lot get pinned on the GM. And to take that future, you need the right coach and that coach should be selected by the GM, now the owner.

Well, since Ted has team up with EG and they have a better plan, EG has done really really well. I will again take that a step farther and point out, EG started this plan before Ted was the official owner.

Conclusion. EG has been kicking butt since Abe was no longer the owner of the team. Clearly an A

But the next phase is even more challenging. Getting back the playoffs should be easy. Putting together a top contender that can win it all...few actually get that done. It took Chicago about five years of moves to get where they are.

[hands11]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wi ... story.html


“Ernie is under contract next year and Flip’s got two years. So there honestly is no reason to even be having these discussions,” Leonsis said. “We’re not afraid to make change. It’s just the change has to be responsible and you make it because you’re not meeting expectations and my expectations were met this year. In fact, I have to say, we’re ahead of my expectations.”

Before taking over as majority owner, Leonsis spoke with the Pollin family about his desires to start the team over from scratch and asked for their assistance. Grunfeld helped those efforts at the trade deadline last season, when he abandoned the Big Three era and cleared up cap space by dealing away Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison. And, after the team secured the No. 1 pick in the NBA draft, Grunfeld helped restock the cupboard with young talent by acquiring Kirk Hinrich, $3 million and the 17th pick, Kevin Seraphin, from the Chicago Bulls. “Another seminal moment along with getting the first pick,” Leonsis said of the deal, “because you can track what we were able to do there.”

So, what you have to do as an owner is grant dispensation,” Leonsis said. “You have to say to them, ‘I know we’re going to be bad. Don’t worry about losing if we’re young and have a lot of prospects for upside. When you should be worried about losing your job is when we have a good team and we’re rebuilt and the team isn’t performing.’ That’s when it’s ‘Oh, we’re disappointed, we thought we’d be good now.’ ”

Nice to see some confirmation. EG exceeded expectations. That would have to be an B+ or A

Also, solid proof that EG was doing Ted bidding even before he became the owner so the period of time that he was " operating on his own" wasn't really that so much.

Ted set the plan. EG executed.

Also interesting to see his take on the Gil situation. That directly contradicts how Gil described his involvement.

[hands11]

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2011/7/8/ ... #storyjump


The Thunder model requires an expert GM, so we have to put Ernie and Sam against a wall and see how they measure up. I know this is a contentious topic, so hopefully we'll bypass the worst of it and focus on Grunny's work after Ted took over. And so, a history under the new regime (brief as it is):

Wizards trade the rights to Vladimir Veremeenko to the Bulls for Kirk Hinrich and the 2010 #17 (Kevin Seraphin), Hinrich was traded along with Hilton Armstrong to the Hawks for Jordan Crawford and the 2011 #18 (Chris Singleton)
Wizards trade the 2010 #30 (Lazar Hayward) and #35 (Nemanja Bjelica) to the Timberwolves for 2010 #23 (Trevor Booker) and #56 (Hamady N'Diaye)
Wizards trade Gilbert Arenas to the Magic for Rashard Lewis
Drafted John Wall and Jan Vesely in the lottery, Shelvin Mack with the 2011 #34

Whether you like them or not, his draft holdovers are bearing fruit. Taken with his recent moves, it's one hell of a beginning, and while he's got some way to go, I have no complaints thus far. I don't know who could have done more with what he started with. For those of you who might argue he put himself in that hole, we made our run at contention and it didn't work out.

Flip Saunders knows how to win in the playoffs, and now that roster is the most stable it's ever been under his tenure, he has to show these kids how to fight together and earn a W on a consistent basis.

[keynote]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but FYI:

SpearsNBAYahoo Marc J. Spears
Longtime Wizards assistant Wes Unseld, Jr., spurns @lakers to take a similar position with the @warriors, source tells Yahoo! Sports.

http://twitter.com/#!/SpearsNBAYahoo/st ... 2191814657

Any sense on whether Wes Jr was indeed good at his job? The fact that he was recruited by two teams says something, I guess. But I never had a handle one way or the other on if he was truly a value add, or if he was merely a nepotistic hold-over from the Pollin era.

Thoughts? Will the EGgheads trumpet this departure as further evidence of EG finding his own identity in a post-Abe world? Or, will the EGgbeaters lambaste him for letting a young genius leave the fold?