RealGM Top 100 List #7

[Baller 24]

Duncan, Olajuwon, and O'neal are here for me, Bryant doesn't have the necessary peak on the level or impact of any of these guys to actually be considered above, but he'll most likely be considered after these guys are up. I'm going to continue and browse through this thread and then make a decision.

[Laimbeer]

For me it comes down to Duncan or Shaq with Kobe as a serious contender as well. Shaq is the most dominant, Kobe has the most titles, but Duncan, to me, has done the most with the least and his defense and leadership are far superior to either of the other two. He is also far more consistent than Hakeem though Hakeem's two year peak is superior both offensively and defensively.

Vote: The Big Fundamental

Nominate: George Mikan
His downside is obvious; he played in the 40s/50s before the modern game and either aged rapidly or couldn't adapt his game to the 24 second clock when it came in. However, he was the dominant player of his era, winning multiple titles with a skilled inside game (for his era) and physical rebounding and defense. Adjust his numbers for pace and average tsp to 1988 and they are superior to Jordan's MVP season (though obviously that's far too simplistic; it's just to show how statistically dominant he was). Yes, he played against white guys, though every team had a player 6-9 or taller in the first year B-R.com has for him (and some were taller than he was); but you can't choose your competition, you can only dominate it.

HM: DRob, LeBron, Frazier

Vote: The Big Fundamental

Nominate: George Mikan


Agreed, and I'm glad to be in good company. But it's too early for your HM's.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't see how the "he'll leave the team" makes Shaq any less of a player, I think that's a lame argument to use in something like this.

[Gongxi]

I agree. If you we include that, where to stop? Jordan will retire a couple times! Kobe will get in legal trouble (but not lose significant playing time because of it)! Duncan won't get you good ratings and make your franchise sexy!

Let's just deal with their play on the court.

[34Dayz]

The level of ignorance and pure Shaq hate in this thread is saddening.

Shaq was on the same tier as Hakeem/Duncan when it came to defensive impact for most of his career.

Acting like Young and Prime Shaq wasnt one of the best defensive centers in the league is just plain ignorant.

You may aswell say that Shaq never scored a single point in the 4th quarter of games because thats just as believable.

Shaq and Duncan's primes lined up side to side and pretty much everyone considered Shaq to be the better player. For most of his career Shaq gives you an elite defense anchour with GOAT level offense that is the reason why he is undoubtedly better then Hakeem or Duncan. He held Prime Hakeem to what 47% shooting in the Finals on single coverage.

Young Hakeem may have been a slighty better shot blocker and was quicker at guarding the PNR but Shaq was bigger and far more intimidating, his impact on the defensive end was certainly at worst on par with Prime Duncan and not far below Hakeems.

[Shaqsquatch]

Umm

You pretty much called Shaqs 3 peat and Duncans win every other year gameplan a wash. I disagree, I choose the champion who sucessfully defended his title twice over the guy who could not evern sucessfully defend his title once.

Duncan brought his team four titles, Shaq brought his team three. If I own a team, I want to win titles. That's the point of playing. Duncan puts you in a better position to win a title year in and year out, whereas with Shaq, you have a certain period of time, and then he's out. And the parting will not be amicable.

Wrong. Shaq was the leader of that Heat team. I understand that they won due to D Wades great finals play, but Shaq was the clear leader.He was the guy with the rings. It was most likely his behind the scenes leadership that keep them together after falling behind 2-0. Shaq had been in a similair situation before and made it out. No Shaq, no title in Miami. Heck they wouldnt have even made it past Detroit. Payton and Zo, J Will followed Shaq. I once saw D Wade trying to assert some "leadership "on Payton and Gary nearly bit his head off. SHaq had no such problems from GP or Zo or Antoine Walker etc...
And BTW Duncan did not really deserve one of those finals MVPs.

[Baller 24]

The level of ignorance and pure Shaq hate in this thread is saddening.

Shaq was on the same tier as Hakeem/Duncan when it came to defense for most of his career.

Acting like Young and Prime Shaq wasnt one of the best defensive centers in the league is just plain ignorant.

You may aswell say that Shaq never scored a single point in the 4th quarter of games because thats just as believable.

I think a majority are stating that he wasn't on par with the two consistently defensively. Shaq's wasn't really a true defensive anchor earlier in his career, despite his abilities as a defender/force and prescence. He had one spectacular season as a defender, where I'm even stating that he most definitely should have had more consideration for DPOY (2000). And a stretch in the '01 playoff of course, but I think majority are ripping his abilities as being a consistent defensive anchor, where his teams haven't consistently been amongst the top in defense.

[34Dayz]

I completely disagree.

Shaq was on the same tier as Hakeem/Duncan when it came to defensive impact for most of his career as in from 93-03.

His value on the defensive side of the floor was atleast on par with Duncans for most of his career until around 04 or 05 when he began to lose alot of lift/speed and explosiveness.

I have watched Shaq since his rookie season and he always used his size and athletic ability and nose for the ball to be a great defensive anchor for his teams.

I can see the argument that Duncan was perhaps slightly more consistent but to say the difference in impact they had on the defensive end was somehow drastically different is wrong it was very close.

Shaq was an elite shot blocker, rebounder, and defensive anchor throughout his young and prime years and anyone who argues otherwise simply dislikes Shaq or didnt watch him play during those years.

I cant understand how someone with Shaqs ability and court impact is going be ranked so far up this list.. I believe he belongs around the 5 spot.. but I will continue to watch this thread and see where it go's.

[Baller 24]

Umm

Wrong. Shaq was the leader of that Heat team. I understand that they won due to D Wades great finals play, but Shaq was the clear leader.He was the guy with the rings. It was most likely his behind the scenes leadership that keep them together after falling behind 2-0. Shaq had been in a similair situation before and made it out. No Shaq, no title in Miami. Heck they wouldnt have even made it past Detroit. Payton and Zo, J Will followed Shaq. I once saw D Wade trying to assert some "leadership "on Payton and Gary nearly bit his head off. SHaq had no such problems from GP or Zo or Antoine Walker etc...

Absolutely agree, he was a big force, no Shaq, definitely no championship. But as big as Shaq's play was in the playoffs, D-Wade's was just as big in that context, both together completely ripped apart that 64-win Pistons defense. Shaq's precense was felt no doubt (11-13) in games Shaq didn't play, but Wade was at this point in their career, the best player on the team, if not the league as a whole if you're considering the playoffs + reg season play.

And BTW Duncan did not really deserve one of those finals MVPs.

Ehh…I don't know about that. '03 was all about him, between the candiates only Olajuwon compares in a run so dominant with a inconsistent supporting cast & talent. There wasn't one player that played close to his abilities, especially in the Finals, where it was clear that he was unstoppable, remember the closing game--21pts/10ast/20reb/8blk. In '99? it was him, he outplayed everyone on the court that year, and it wasn't really remotely close. '05 I can agree is debateable, Manu really played lights out this series.

[34Dayz]

I'd say it was close to 50/50 in terms of importance when comparing Shaq to Wade on the 05/06 Championship team.

Wade's numbers are more impressive but if you followed both of them in the playoffs that year you'd probably agree with me that Shaq was an absolutely huge part of that teams success and ability to beat the Detroit and the Mavericks.

[Baller 24]

I completely disagree.

Shaq was on the same tier as Hakeem/Duncan when it came to defensive impact for most of his career as in from 93-03.

His value on the defensive side of the floor was atleast on par with Duncans for most of his career until around 04 or 05 when he began to lose alot of lift/speed and explosiveness.

I have watched Shaq since his rookie season and he always used his size and athletic ability and nose for the ball to be a great defensive anchor for his teams.

I can see the argument that Duncan was perhaps slightly more consistent but to say the difference in impact they had on the defensive end was somehow drastically different is wrong it was very close.

Shaq was an elite shot blocker, rebounder, and defensive anchor throughout his young and prime years and anyone who argues otherwise simply dislikes Shaq or didnt watch him play during those years.

I cant understand how someone with Shaqs ability and court impact is going be ranked so far up this list.. I believe he belongs around the 5 spot.. but I will continue to watch this thread and see where it go's.

No ones dismantling his presence/force/impact/intimidation, but statistically it really doesn't suggest that he was on par as a defensive anchor, Olajuwon and Duncan consistently were anchoring defensive teams that were amongst the top 3 year in and year out, even with the lack of talent, Duncan continued it until '08.

Shaq's only had a season where it suggests that (Young Shaq didn't even anchor a top 10 defensive team), but his presence individually is very well felt in the simple box scores. Shaq's an elite shot blocker/rebounder sure, but you can't compare that to Olajuwon, when he's arguably the GOAT shot-blocker.

That's where the arguments are presumably coming from, and mostly with the talent level Shaq's had to compliment him, where he's consistently had a top 5 perimeter player going all the way into his years with the Heat. Olajuwon and Duncan haven't necessarily had that (Duncan not until '05), but both have showcased prior that they've been able to take simple role players surrounding them and dominate games ('94 & '03).

[34Dayz]

I dont see how Duncan and Hakeem had less Talent around them in those years then say Shaq in 00 or in the year he met Hakeem in the Finals. I firmly believe Hakeems supporting cast was superior to Oneals when they met that year.

the only significant talent Shaq had around him was Kobe and Wade and both were young or rookies when they were teamed up with Shaq. Kobe wasnt even a top 15 player in 00 and Wade wasnt firmyl on the map until he teamed up with Oneal.

[Dr Positivity]

Shaq has always been a bad pick and roll defender and his defensive effort has been questionable aside from 00. If he played Duncan/Hakeem defense he'd have been the most ridiculous player the league has ever seen

[Shaqsquatch]

The level of ignorance and pure Shaq hate in this thread is saddening.

Shaq was on the same tier as Hakeem/Duncan when it came to defense for most of his career.

Acting like Young and Prime Shaq wasnt one of the best defensive centers in the league is just plain ignorant.

You may aswell say that Shaq never scored a single point in the 4th quarter of games because thats just as believable.

I

think a majority are stating that he wasn't on par with the two consistently defensively. Shaq's wasn't really a true defensive anchor earlier in his career, despite his abilities as a defender/force and prescence. He had one spectacular season as a defender, where I'm even stating that he most definitely should have had more consideration for DPOY (2000). And a stretch in the '01 playoff of course, but I think majority are ripping his abilities as being a consistent defensive anchor, where his teams haven't consistently been amongst the top in defense.[/quot

Shaq is a top ten all time shot blocker. He was by far the most intimidating defensive force in NBA history. Bar none. Notice KJ never tried that dunk on Shaq that he unleashed on Hakeem during the 94 playoffs. If you was guard or small forward getting your shot blocked invading the paint was not your biggest concern with Shaq around. Winding up on your back was. 6'6 lanky millionaire types dont like to knocked on their butts from the air (which is why Iverson's toughness is so respected in this league). Shaq was an elite man defender. Shaq turned players who normally attacked the basket into jump shooters.

Claiming that Shaq was not a great defensive anchor because of the pick and roll is as ridiculous as claiming that 250 lbs. Dick Butus wasnt a great middle linebacker because perhaps he couldnt cover those 1960s 170 lbs wide recievers in the open field like some smaller linebackers. In both cases their strengths far out weigh any minuses.

[Baller 24]

I dont see how Duncan and Hakeem had less Talent around them in those years then say Shaq in 00 or in the year he met Hakeem in the Finals. I firmly believe Hakeems supporting cast was superior to Oneals when they met that year.

the only significant talent Shaq had around him was Kobe and Wade and both were young or rookies when they were teamed up with Shaq. Kobe wasnt even a top 15 player in 00 and Wade wasnt firmyl on the map until he teamed up with Oneal.

Bryant was very clearly a top 10 player in '00, and '01 and on a clear top 5 player in the game. I'm adressing the seasons of Olajuwon in '94 & Duncan in'03, they clearly inferior in terms of "talented teams".

[Dr Positivity]

Reading this page is probably making GilmoreFan's head explode "gosh ... darn... homers..."

[hasslinghoff]

3-peat-lakers:

a.c.green/r.horry/h.grant
g.rice/r.fox
b.shaw/i.rider
r.harper/d.fisher

those teams were deep as **** outside of shaq/kobe...

[pancakes3]

Hakeem and Duncan are vastly better defenders than Shaq. Shaq is large, keeps the paint clear, and can rough up opposing C's true but his weakness comes in team defense where he needs to rotate, show on pnr's, and make up for the perimeter's mistakes. he was just too slow and as a result his TEAM's defensive rankings were never as good as Hakeem's or Duncan's squads.

On top of the defensive shortcomings, Shaq was never a rebounding champ, DPOY, and despite his "longevity" has played in less games than Hakeem (duncan's about 150 games behind in 4 less seasons)

vote: Hakeem
nominate: Barkley

[lorak]

Shaq was on the same tier as Hakeem/Duncan when it came to defensive impact for most of his career.

You lost all credibility here.

Shaq played very good defense when he wanted and at the beginning of the Lakers three peat he was really good defender. Bur for most of his career he was lazy, very bad on pick and roll (Mike Bibby earn a lot of $ because of how poorly Shaq played D against Kings) and on rotations. Overall his team D was mediocre. However he was good post defender, but only when he wanted to. Duncan and Hakeem consistently through almost whole career played very good defense (team and man to man) and that's the huge difference between them and Shaq.

[Baller 24]

Shaq is a top ten all time shot blocker. He was by far the most intimidating defensive force in NBA history. Bar none. Notice KJ never tried that dunk on Shaq that he unleashed on Hakeem during the 94 playoffs. If you was guard or small forward getting your shot blocked invading the paint was not your biggest concern with Shaq around. Winding up on your back was. 6'6 lanky millionaire types don't like to knocked on their butts from the air - which is why Iverson's toughness is so respected in this league. Shaq was an elite man defender. Shaq turned players who normally attacked the basket into jump shooters.

Come on, don't act like Shaq hasn't been posterized before, that's not a good argument if you're suggesting that defensively. He's intimidating yes, no doubt. But aside from his '00 season, he's never anchored a team defense on par with Duncan or Olajuwon who did it consistently for almost a decade.

Claiming that Shaq was not a great defensive anchor because of the pick and roll is as ridiculous as claiming that 250 lbs. Dick Butus wasn't a great middle linebacker because perhaps he couldn't cover those 1960s 170 lbs wide receivers in the open field like some smaller linebackers. In both cases their strengths far out weigh any minuses.

Not claiming he wasn't, just stating that he was on par with the likes of Duncan & Olajuwon. Shaq's for the most part of his career has been a different kind of defensive player, his presence is very well felt, but we're just simply stating from a statistical standpoint.