RealGM Top 100 List #7

[Shaqsquatch]

Shaq was on the same tier as Hakeem/Duncan when it came to defensive impact for most of his career.

:lol:
You lost all credibility here.

Shaq played very good defense when he wanted and at the beginning of the Lakers three peat he was really good defender. Bur for most of his career he was lazy, very bad on pick and roll (Mike Bibby earn a lot of $ because of how poorly Shaq played D against Kings) and on rotations. Overall his team D was mediocre. However he was good post defender, but only when he wanted to. Duncan and Hakeem consistently through almost whole career played very good defense (team and man to man) and that's the huge difference between them and Shaq.

Its a bit safer teamwise for Duncan to show hard on pick and rolls when there is another seven foot anchor still waiting at the basket. Just sayin

[34Dayz]

Shaq isnt the greatest PNR defender but certainly in his younger and prime years he wasnt below average at defending it especially for someone of his size and stature.

Thats only one facet of defense and in terms of controlling the paint and anchoring his teams defense I think he was just as good as Duncan and maybe only a Tier or two below Hakeem.

Defensive Team numbers are based on the entire team.. dont knock Shaqs defense because of a team statistic that is silly..

also in 00 wasnt his team the 2nd best defensive team in the league?

Read my post carefully, in terms of Defensive Impact as in his value on the Defensive side of the floor he was certainly on par with Duncan throughout his younger and prime years.

and who cares that bibby scored a few points on his team when he was dropping 40 point games on them blocking shots and dismantling their entire team. Shaq owned the Kings. BTW no mention is ever made to the **** defense played on his partner in that series who was blowing his defensive assignments again and again, its ridiculous to put all the blame on Shaq for that for that exact reason.

[lorak]

Read my post carefully, in terms of Defensive Impact as in his value on the Defensive side of the floor he was certainly on par with Duncan throughout his younger and prime years.

Please, elaborate.

Duncan was anchoring some of best defensive teams of all time (without Robinson!), Hakeem 1on1 destroyed other all time great centers and what Shaq did on defensive end of the floor that you are saying he's on the same tier defensively as Duncan and Hakeem? How you can say that for most of his career he played as good defense as HO and TD when in fact he played very good (but still not as good as HO and TD, because of his awful team D) defense only during three peat?

[34Dayz]

Your just biased and are using a team statistic to try and drag down Shaq's impact on that end.

If you look at H2H numbers of Shaq vs many of the all time great centers you would see he routinely held them far below their averages and on very low shooting %'s.

You dont consistently average 10-12 rebounds and close to 3 blocks by not trying on defense.

Like I said Shaq's impact on the defensive end throughout his young and prime years was not far removed from Duncans. If you actually watched both of them play on that end of the floor you'd see their impacts were relatively equal.

[Dr Positivity]

Who should we trust on this matter, a poster with Shaq's number in his username, or literally every other person's opinion including 99% of Laker fans + every other reasonable objective source of information?

[34Dayz]

Please read my last post and explain how that's not true.

or should we believe people who are obviously biased against him and consistently make negative comments about him some that are obviously hateful?

You act like there are no users in this thread who obviously dislike Shaq.. don't tell me you don't see them because you seem intelligent enough.

BTW atleast 50% of LA fans on this board do not care about the history of their team and dislike Shaq due to Kobe so to act like they can be fully trusted when discussing him non biasedly is foolish.

[34Dayz]

Obviously im not referring to everyone. I am just trying to portray Shaq for what he actually was, one of the most dominant offensive players ever with a solid defense game. Sure he wasn't perfect offensively (free throws) and not the best defender for his position (Hakeem,Duncan) if he was then he'd easily be the GOAT.

However he was one of the best defenders at his position for most of his career 93-03 and wasn't far different in his ability to impact that end when compared to Duncan.

[Sedale Threatt]

Attitude, injuries and less-than-full effort on the boards and defense are all legitimate criticisms of Shaquille O'Neal.

Duncan and Olajuwon were just better defensive players, period.

Olajuwon had his moments when he squabbled with management, but was generally highly regarded as a teammate. Duncan, of course, is about the model for that area. Neither was on par with Shaq in terms of feuding with teammates; indeed, has anybody in history?

Both had more versatile skill sets, and could obvious dominate any given game they played in. But I'm looking at basic offensive numbers, and I'm wondering how Shaq isn't better than them both by a decent margin.

Duncan's career high in points: 25.5 ppg. Shaq surpassed that TEN times! Duncan's career-best in TS% would have been an average season for Shaq. Whatever edge Duncan has on Shaq in terms of defense, I'd argue that Shaq surpasses that on the other end. Duncan was never, ever the offensive force Shaq was in his prime.

Plus, it wasn't as if Shaq, for all the (legitimate) questions about his effort, was a poor defender and rebounder. Indeed, he was usually at least good, just not what he could have been. And let's not forget -- Duncan, while an admittedly better defensive player, never led the league in blocked shots and rebounds, either.

Other than the fact you're not going to have to deal with injuries and attitude, I'm just not seeing a big edge for Duncan. I can certainly understand a case for him, but in terms of peak over consistency, I think I'm taking the peak.

Then we get to Olajuwon, who was an even better defensive player, and pretty hard to argue against a guy who improved in the playoffs like he did.

This is probably unfair, just like a lot of the flak KG got during his detention in Minnesota, but I guess I look at Olajuwon and wonder, where was uber-Dream on a more consistent basis?

I understand he started his career late, and his development unfolded accordingly. But the biggest feathers in his cap are those two championship seasons, and it just didn't feel when he was playing, nor do his numbers indicate, he was at that level consistently throughout his career.

Looking at Olajuwon's peak as an offensive player, he was obviously more skilled and versatile. But sort of like Duncan, his top scoring years would have been average for Shaq during his first 11 years in the NBA.

Plus, Shaq got to the line way more -- didn't convert well, but there still value in racking up fouls -- and he also shot better overall (Shaq career TS%, 58.2; Duncan 55.2; Olajuwon 55.3).

[lorak]

Obviously im not referring to everyone. I am just trying to portray Shaq for what he actually was, one of the most dominant offensive players ever with a solid defense game.

!
There's huge difference between "solid defense game" and "the same tier defensively as Duncan and Hakeem".

[Sedale Threatt]

Total Rebound Pcts:

Duncan, 18.5
O'Neal, 17.8
Olajuwon, 17.2

[An Unbiased Fan]

Top 3 scorer ever,

I'm reluctant to grant that for somebody who never beat .503% eFG or .580 TS% any season in his career. Give me Larry Bird or Michael Jordan instead, whose career AVERAGES rivaled those numbers. (Each higher in eFG, close in TS.) Also give me some of the top post scorers.

Similarly, I hope you're not arguing that Kobe was a better offensive player than Jordan (who blows him away in scoring) or Magic (who blows him away in passing) or Bird (who blows him away in both), so to put him top 5 I guess you only have him beating one center. Which one do you have in mind?

My Top 3 scorers ever are MJ, Kobe, Wilt, with HM to KAJ & Shaq. BTW, do you really want to base you top scorers ever on eFG & TS solely...because Chris Mullin is much better than Bird in that analysis. Stats need to be put into context like always.

My Top 5 offensive players are MAgic, MJ, Bird, Kobe, Nash.

[34Dayz]

Neither was on par with Shaq in terms of feuding with teammates; indeed, has anybody in history?

Reasoning for this? Shaq was generally beloved in the locker rooms in LA, Mia, and Boston.

When he was Young and in his Prime the only teammate he ever argued with was Kobe and that was mostly Kobe's fault.

I dont think it matters what bridges he burned after he left MIA because by that point he was no longer the Shaq we know and its irrelevant what he did from that point on.

[lorak]

This is probably unfair, just like a lot of the flak KG got during his detention in Minnesota, but I guess I look at Olajuwon and wonder, where was uber-Dream a little bit earlier in his career?

I understand that he started his career late, and his development unfolded accordingly. But the biggest feathers in his cap are those two championship seasons, and it just didn't feel, nor do his numbers indicate, he was at that level consistently throughout his career.

Well, in his second year he advanced to NBA finals and played GREAT against one of the best frontcourts in history (and if not injury to Rockets playmaker they might win it all that year). Next season and Hakeem had these great series against Sonics with monster elimination game (fatal was talking about it). So he was at this level very early, but his team was weak during his first seasons (just like KG and Minnesota).

Looking at Olajuwon's peak as an offensive player, he was obviously more skilled and versatile. But sort of like Duncan, his top scoring years would have been average for Shaq during his first 11 years in the NBA.

Look at their peaks in the playoffs (that's what really matters, not some stat padding during regular season ;] ):

Code: Select all

Shaq 00-02
Duncan 03-05
Hakeem 93-95

stat   Shaq   Hakeem   Duncan
G   58   57   57
MPG   42.3   42.7   40.3
PPG   29.9   29.8   23.8   
TS%   56.2   56.4   55.3


So yeah, Duncan is worse in terms of volume, but Hakeem isn't worse than Shaq - the same efficiency and volume, but Olajuwon played against tougher competition.

BTW, I don't know if people realize how special was what Hakeem did during 1994 finals. Not only he destroyed Ewing (38 FG%) but also entire Knicks defense (he was guarded not only by King Kong, but also other NY players) which is one of absolute best defenses of all time.

[34Dayz]

Shaq vs Hakeem

Shaq 29PPG on 60%
Hakeem 32PPG on 47%

BTW @ DStern I didnt say Shaq was as good as Duncan or Hakeem defensively only that Young and Prime Shaq was in the same Tier as Duncan when it came to overall defensive impact.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Neither was on par with Shaq in terms of feuding with teammates; indeed, has anybody in history?

Reasoning for this? Shaq was generally beloved in the locker rooms in LA, Mia, and Boston.

When he was Young and in his Prime the only teammate he ever argued with was Kobe and that was mostly Kobe's fault.

I dont think it matters what bridges he burned after he left MIA because by that point he was no longer the Shaq we know and its irrelevant what he did from that point on.

Wait....did we imagine Shaq's feud with Penny? Or him getting Van Exel traded? Or him getting Jones traded? Or him repeatedly trying to get Kobe traded?

[lorak]

Shaq vs Hakeem

Shaq 29PPG on 60%
Hakeem 32PPG on 47%

Haha, for Shaq you rounded up, for Hakeem down. Your lack of consistency is in the same tier as Shaq's lack of consistency on defensive end.

In reality in1995 finals Shaq averaged 28.0 PPG on 58.4 FG% - but that includes stat padded game 2 (22 pts in second half) so it significantly affected average when sample is so small (4 games).
Hakeem 32.8 PPG, 48.3 FG%

[34Dayz]

Did we imagine Kobe's massive ego and inability to accept his role on the team leading to frequent arguments not only with Shaq but with PJ and most of the Veterans on that team. Did I imagine Shaq turning down a more lucrative offer LA offered him to go to Miami due to this?

Shaq was always a great lockerroom guy and very rarely had trouble with his teammates, he was the GOAT level player and at that point of time a better player then Kobe, he was right to be alittle upset when Kobe was trying to determine the direction of the team and change the nature of the offense when it had already led to 2-3 championships..

[Sedale Threatt]

Look at their peaks in the playoffs (that's what really matters, not some stat padding during regular season ;] ):

Why is it that you consistently relegate Shaq's achievements to "stat padding"?

I agree that playoffs count way more than the regular season, but it still has value -- especially when there's a substantial edge, as is the case when it's recorded over the course of an entire decade.

And regarding the notion of playoff peaks -- not only does that soundly eliminate Duncan, you could probably cross off Olajuwon if you'd included everything else. That was the one stretch of his career where Shaq played pretty close to elite defense, and I'm pretty sure he would have killed Olajuwon on the glass.

Hard to argue against going through Ewing, Robinson and O'Neal, but as noted earlier -- which you predictably downplayed -- guys like Mutombo and the tag-team of Robinson/Duncan were no slouches, either.

[34Dayz]

Shaq vs Hakeem

Shaq 29PPG on 60%
Hakeem 32PPG on 47%

Haha, for Shaq you rounded up, for Hakeem down. Your lack of consistency is in the same tier as Shaq's lack of consistency on defensive end.

In reality in1995 finals Shaq averaged 28.0 PPG on 58.4 FG% - but that includes stat padded game 2 (22 pts in second half) so it significantly affected average when sample is so small (4 games).
Hakeem 32.8 PPG, 48.3 FG%

I was quoting this from memory my mistake if I was a %Point or Two off.

Still shows that when matched H2H Shaq was far better offensively and has always been a better offensive player then Hakeem.

If you compare careers its pretty clear Shaq was a far more dominant offensive player.

and for all the flack about Shaqs defense covered Hakeem 1on1 he held him to 48% shooting.

[Sedale Threatt]

Did we imagine Kobe's massive ego and inability to accept his role on the team leading to frequent arguments not only with Shaq but with PJ and most of the Veterans on that team. Did I imagine Shaq turning down a more lucrative offer LA offered him to go to Miami due to this?

Shaq was always a great lockerroom guy and very rarely had trouble with his teammates, he was the GOAT level player and at that point of time a better player then Kobe, he was right to be alittle upset when Kobe was trying to determine the direction of the team and change the nature of the offense when it had already led to 2-3 championships..

If that was an isolated incident, this would be a decent argument. But Shaq had beef with guys pretty much everywhere he's been -- Hardaway, Wade, etc. Nothing on par with Kobe, who obviously contributed in a big way to that particular situation, but it's pretty clear to anybody that followed Shaq's career that he was egotistical, thin-skinned and moody.