RealGM Top 100 List #7

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#101 » by lorak » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:46 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
DavidStern wrote:

Code: Select all

REGULAR SEASON
stat   HO   SO
MPG   35.7   34.7
PPG   21.8   23.7
TS%   58.6   55.3

PLAYOFFS
MPG   39.6   37.5
PPG   25.9   24.3
TS%   56.9   56.5


So yeah, Shaq was better scorer during regular season, but not much better. If we adjust that for quality of competition they are probably the same.
Playoffs are equal even without adjusting for quality of competition, after adjustment Hakeem gains advantage.

And that's only scoring, Shaq biggest value, Hakeem beats him totally on defensive end and is more or less equal in other aspect of offense.


A. I'm pretty sure you mixed the TS% on the regular season numbers.


Yes.


C. I'm looking at Shaq's first 11 seasons, at which point he hit 30, and obviously began to decline. During that extremely lengthy period, his average scoring season would have been comparable to Olajuwon's best, while putting up 10 seasons of at least 57 TS% or better.



So lets look at first 11 seasons:

Code: Select all

regular
stat   SO   HO
MPG   37.8   37.7
PPG   27.6   24.0
TS%   58.4   55.8   

playoffs
MPG   40.2   41.0
PPG   28.1   28.3
TS%   56.8   57.1


The same story - yes, Shaq was better in regular season, but how much better? Is it enough to overcame Hakeem's advantage on defense?

BTW, during first 11 season Olajuwon played 86 more regular season games than Shaq. It's important on many levels and Shaq shouldn't get free pass on that. Really, this and his defense are serious flaws and his regular season advantage in scoring is enough to chose him before Hakeem?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#102 » by Snakebites » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:47 pm

Vote: Shaq.

Again, having watched him play throughout his prime is larger than the other two big men I would be considering for this spot. For 5 years at least, no team was taken seriously unless they had a solid answer to Shaq, and those were extremely difficult to come by. I thought he belonged minimum one spot higher (I had started to consider him over Wilt, frankly).

He was also frighteningly effective in the playoffs, especially in the NBA finals.

Was he on the same level defensively as the other two bigs being considered? I don't think anyone can reasonably make that case. But I WILL make the case that his overall impact on the court, all things being considered, was larger than Duncan's and sustainable for a longer period of time within his career than Hakeem's. And to me that's the bottom line.

Nominate:

David Robinson. Same reasons as before. The total package of offense and defense coupled with the ability to lead teams with relatively week supporting casts to 60 wins warrants inclusion at this juncture, and I've felt so for two rounds now.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#103 » by Sedale Threatt » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:54 pm

DavidStern wrote:The same story - yes, Shaq was better in regular season, but how much better? Is it enough to overcame Hakeem's advantage on defense?


3.5 points on a better % is not a small thing.

But ultimately that's the whole question, isn't it? I personally say yes, probably because of my obvious bias as a Lakers fan. But I can easily see the case for Olajuwon.

DavidStern wrote:BTW, during first 11 season Olajuwon played 86 more regular season games than Shaq. It's important on many levels and Shaq shouldn't get free pass on that.


That's probably the biggest criticism against him, even more than the locker room stuff and inconsistent defense. All of those missed games definitely add up.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#104 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:01 pm

34Dayz wrote:I think with Shaq every little tiff he has is blown up to some huge proportion, he never had any issues with Wade until after he declined past the point of being a title run type of guy, and I cant say for sure but didnt all the storys of beef between the two start after Shaq had already changed teams and It was between him and the management not him and Wade.

I acknowledge Shaq has a big ego but no ones Ego is bigger then Kobes.


When arguably the most talented player of all time plays on 6 teams, and has tiffs on his first 4, this is kind of legendarily bad tiff-ing.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#105 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:11 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:I don't see how the "he'll leave the team" makes Shaq any less of a player, I think that's a lame argument to use in something like this.


It's not just the leaving of the team, it's inevitable lack of effort & chemistry.

Gongxi mentioned Jordan. Jordan retired once pre-maturely without any issues along those lines, leading a team to their 3rd title. His father had been murdered, and his team management had treated him with unbelievable disrespect.

Bottom line is, if I'm drafting Jordan, he's given me ZERO reason to think he'll eventually be a malcontent, whereas Shaq has proven to become lazy, unhappy and petty literally everywhere he went during his prime, and it's why he only has 1 MVP.

I do want to make clear: Shaq isn't much lower than Hakeem on my list. But literally, we're talking about guys with similar peaks, and similar athletic longevity. If you aren't considering the times in the midst of that where there were problems which reduced the benefit these players provided, I don't think you're going deep enough.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#106 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:20 pm

DavidStern wrote:
There's huge difference between "solid defense game" and "the same tier defensively as Duncan and Hakeem".


Yup. Strange to be having this conversation actually, but probably for the best.

People have a tendency to think about defensive bigs in terms of an abstract "intimidation" which is based on fear for their body rather than their shot. One can argue that back in the 60s & 70s this was legitimate, but literally the most physically dangerous big man we've seen then is Bill Laimbeer because of his cheap shots.

The reality is that on defense, size like Shaq's has the advantage on man defense, but as a help defender explosiveness, quickness, intelligence, and focus are all big deals. Hakeem's got him beat in all 4 period, and Duncan's got him beat in all 4 once Shaq started gaining weight.

And all of this has everything to do with why Shaq only made All-Defensive 2nd team 3 times.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#107 » by 34Dayz » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:29 pm

I agree that once Shaq started losing speed and explosiveness maybe 04 or the season after Duncan definitly had the edge in team defense but I still maintain throughout his Young and Prime years 98-03 maybe 04 his impact on the defensive end of the floor was certainly comparable to Duncans if not as consistent.

To say his defense was a serious flaw in his game in his young and Prime years seems like a load of balogney to me.. he was a good defender definitely one of the more impactful at his position if not as good as Hakeem or Duncan he was close.

Saying that ALL-D teams are a good measure of how good a player was defensively is stupid, its obvious by now that they cant be taken seriously and even so back then they were usually 1-3 Centers that were better defensively then Shaq even if that meant a Mourning, Mutumbo or Wallace that doesn't mean that Shaq didn't still have very good defense.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#108 » by ElGee » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:29 pm

While we're here, I want to echo something Doc MJ said. It's plausible to me Hakeem Olajuwon is the greatest player in NBA history (depending on criteria). He also may very well be outside the top-10. Why the uncertainty?

First of all, he was a foreign Muslim dude playing in Houston. Not exactly Air Jordan in Chi-Town or Magic in the Wood. And I wonder, as we are wont to do, if much of his impact was muted early on because of this. There's only so much re-examining one can do here without firing up every Rockets game from the 80s and hand-tracking on/off and everything else.

Then again, some of the other evidence suggests Hakeem wasn't as valuable as the eye test would indicate. That Houston wasn't as lost without him and that distributing what he did across the team wasn't impossible. (Same can be said of Duncan.) We have such a tendency to de-emphasize teammates and coaching as years go on and only remember co-stars...of which, Hakeem basically had none.

I do know that in 1986, in his 2nd year, Olajuwon missed 14 games. Houston was -0.8 per contest in that time, which was 7.3 points per game worse than in the 68 games Hakeem played (+6.5 in those games), improving both on offense and defense.

I know that in 1991 -- a notable down year for Dream -- in the 26 games he missed Houston outscored it's opponents by 2.4 ppg (16-10 record). They were only slightly better with him (+4.0 overall) but while the defense improved about 3 points the offense regressed slightly.

I know that in 1992 -- another "bumpy" season -- in the 12 games he missed Houston was outscored by 10.8 points per. The DRtg was a dubious 117.2. With Dream, they were -0.2 (+10.6 difference).

I know that in 1995 when Hakeem missed 10 games, Houston was -4.3 without Olajuwon and +3.0 with him. Again, the offense was better, but the defense fell apart in his absence. (The DRtg was 116.8 without Hakeem.)

Those are big numbers. For those who didn't follow RPOY, I ran a bunch on older players. For some comparisons (the first number is net difference in lineup, the second is what that brought the team point differential to, or roughly SRS):
Walton 1978 +13.3 to 10.0
Walton 1977 +12.6 to 8.4
LeBron 08+10 +12.5 to 4.1 (average of 08 and 10)
Magic 1988 +10.9 to 7.2
West 1971 +10.9 to 4.5
Hakeem 1992 +10.6 to -0.2
Magic 1989 +10.4 to 7.8
King 1985 + 8.0 to -2.1
Shaq 00-01 +7.7 to 6.5
Kareem 1975 +7.7 to 1.7
Shaq 03 +7.6 to 3.7
Hakeem 1986 +7.3 to 6.5
Hakeem 1995 +7.3 to 3.0

West 1968 +6.4 to 7.8
Nash 2009 +6.3 to 2.5
Kareem 1978 +5.8 to
Garnett 2009 +5.4 to 9.2
Shaq 02 +5.1 to 8.1
West 1969 +4.9 to 5.4
Shaq 1996 +4.4 to 7.1
Pippen 1994 +4.2 to 3.6
Shaq 1998 +3.5 to 8.7
Pippen 1998 +3.1 to 8.6
Shaq 1997 +2.9 to 5.4
Hakeem 1991 +1.7 to 4.0
Shaq 04 +1.4 to 4.2

So in 1992, Hakeem's team was really not good, despite not many notable changes. Well, other than team turmoil and a coaching change, which is often brought back to Hakeem.

The next two bits of evidence offer equal confusion on Olajuwon, suggesting he could be GOAT-level or he could be a tier off the all-timers we're discussing.

Team Quality/Role

When Olajuwon shot well in the playoffs, his team actually fared worse. That suggests a team not reliant on his efficient scoring to win, often the mark of a good or balanced team. When he shot poorly, their record barely changed (.500).

Then again, when he shot the ball a lot (25+ FGAs), something he did frequently in the 90s, Houston fared very well (.727%). This suggests Iverson's Law of unipolar offense, where a player carrying massive offensive load is helping an otherwise flawed team, regardless of his shooting percentage. Interesting to note, then, that in Hakeem's legendary 95 run (only +0.9 TS%) the Rockets exploded for 115.2 points/100. They didn't win that title with defense, they won it with offense around Hakeem.

So, how "good" is Hakeem in a vacuum if we simply surround him with good shooters? (Drexler played very well in that run, I don't want to understand his role as a slasher who could create his own.) Personally, I find that to be a difficult question to answer. History shows us two things:

(1) The best offenses are run by fairly ball-dominant guards/great creators for others
(2) The best post offenses are run from the high-post, again to create for others

It gets back to Wilt, where scoring 40 or 45 points in a game isn't really something lifting a team much if the wealth can fairly easily be redistributed with him out of the game. There's some of that in theory with Olajuwon over his career -- he can't just build great offenses even with good shooting pieces like Smith, Maxwell and Floyd -- but in 1995 what he was doing seems fairly awesome (on top of the obvious eye-candy). Although Houston did shoot 39.1% from 3, so some luck might be involved there. Even so, reverting to RS averages only lops off about 1.5 pts of efficiency per 100.

Raising his Offensive Game

Rightfully, this is what Hakeem is known for, and stands out fairly well among peers. First of all, by game score, he had a bad playoff game in the BR available data (91-97) about as infrequently as Michael Jordan. http://www.backpicks.com/2011/05/21/hig ... n-part-ii/ (Shaq, btw, almost never) He had good games second only to Jordan (although well behind -- volume scoring for the Hollinger win).

In 15 elimination games from 1991 to 1997 Olajuwon averaged 27/12/4 3 blocks 3 TOV on 57% TS. Outside the box score, I'd say he was one of the better elimination game players ever.

Now, he was in the Western Conference in the late 80s/early 90s, so the defensive quality he faced wasn't that good, at least by DRtg. It's almost 4 points worse than Shaq, for comparison in prime years. But then again, Olajuwon totally cranks his game up in the playoffs in his best seasons.

Of the other modern all-timers, he increases his scoring, shooting, ORtg and WS/48 the most of anyone come playoff time. His numbers in those years are 27.6 ppg/57.7 TS% (Shaq's, btw, are 26.6/56.7 TS% -- although if we normalize by DRtg Shaq has the better efficiency at the same volume).

So where does that leave us? Well, with a guy who could be Iversoning (in the good way) an offense and is an amazing defender. Or, it could leave us with a guy who's offensive contributions can be replaced to a certain degree. I have to say, I find Houston's 1995 ORtg in the 22 game sample fascinating, since Hakeem's efficiency was barely above average.

Personally, I settle in the middle on Olajuwon, with his career ups and downs. But I do question if that's wrong. My instincts tell me if he had a better situation (eg San Antonio, 1998!!!) that we might regard Dream as a serious, serious GOAT candidate. Yes, even challenging Jordan.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#109 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:31 pm

On the other hand, 82games.com has statistics for And1's allowed and Shaq is at a level half of anyone else within the range of their survey. When the Big Diesel fouls you, the shot ain't going in. :ouch:
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#110 » by ElGee » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:32 pm

Baller 24 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Shaq/Kobe were still the greatest duo in history, and 3-peated with Rick Fox being their 3rd best player.


Lakers supporting cast shouldn't be discounted either, it's not like it was "just" Bryant & O'Neal. The '00 team was very stacked in terms of talent, we saw what players like Harper, Green, Fox and Horry can do in situations like the WCF.

'01 sometimes gets even *more* underappreciated I feel, despite how big of a tear Bryant and O'Neal were on, some of the players brought key contributions--especially defensively. I love the fact that Fisher today is considered to be a sub-par defender, when in fact they forget how solid of a defensive asset he really was, especially in '01.

Derek Fisher in the playoffs was averaging 13/3/3/42%/51% 3PT
- Held Damon Stoudamire to 41%, and 15% 3PT shooting.
- Held Jason Williams; after scoring 14 on 62% to just 2pts on 00%, 2pts on 167%, and finally in the series clincher 3 pts on 20%, even Bobby Jackson with an increase of minutes against Fisher failed 6 PPG on 35%
-Spurs guards didn't fair well either:
Porter 8.3pts on 34%
Johnson 6.2pts on 39%

Rick Fox contributed very well 10.0/4/4/45%
Holding guys like:
- Pippen 13.7pts, 4 TOs, on 41%
-Peja 20pts on 39%

I mean I can bring up countless examples, but I'm just explaining the gist of it.


Way to throw Glen Rice under the bus man. Yikes people have selective memories.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#111 » by Vinsanity420 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:37 pm

DavidStern wrote:
BTW, during first 11 season Olajuwon played 86 more regular season games than Shaq.


And this had more to do with poor conditioning issues as well... they are close enough in terms of on court play where I am actually considering things like game missed. In Hakeem's 10 best years, he played 91% of his games, compared to Shaq's 84%. In Shaq's last year with Orlando and his first two years with LA, he missed a total of 81 games - that's around 33% of the team's games.

I am not all that high on Shaq's defense either. His defense was like Kobe's - very good when he put in the effort. The effort? Only there every once in a while. It was there in 00 for example - and when it was there, he was dominant on D. I thought Shaq in that single year was better than Hakeem had ever been - he had added a fairly significant amount of strength from his finals matchup with Hakeem, and the sheer force he was in the paint at that time was unreal. That was the best center peak I had ever watched ( never watched Russell or Wilt).

But I haven't voted in favor of a player by placing heavy emphasis on peak before - took Magic over Bird. I guess I'll stay consistent with that.

Vote: Hakeem
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#112 » by Sedale Threatt » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:38 pm

ElGee wrote:Way to throw Glen Rice under the bus man. Yikes people have selective memories.


I thought that trade was going to lock us in as a permanent dynasty. Now, in hindsight, I can't help but wish we would have held on to Jones and Campbell.

At any rate, fabulous post on Dream. I wish I had the time, capacity and faculties to pull off an analysis like that.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#113 » by OldSchoolNBA » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Hey ElGee, great post but wasn't the Rockets offense worse without Hakeem in 1995? In the 10 games Hakeem missed, their ORtg comes at 108.98 which is worse than their ORtg for the year which indicates the offense was better with Hakeem. I'm getting a different number for the DRtg too. I'm getting 113.1 instead of 116.2.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#114 » by Baller 24 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Yes, completely forgot about Rice in '00, especially in the WCF. I was more or so focusing in on '01 rather than '00.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#115 » by An Unbiased Fan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:49 pm

Baller 24 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Shaq/Kobe were still the greatest duo in history, and 3-peated with Rick Fox being their 3rd best player.


Lakers supporting cast shouldn't be discounted either, it's not like it was "just" Bryant & O'Neal. The '00 team was very stacked in terms of talent, we saw what players like Harper, Green, Fox and Horry can do in situations like the WCF.

'01 sometimes gets even *more* underappreciated I feel, despite how big of a tear Bryant and O'Neal were on, some of the players brought key contributions--especially defensively. I love the fact that Fisher today is considered to be a sub-par defender, when in fact they forget how solid of a defensive asset he really was, especially in '01.

Derek Fisher in the playoffs was averaging 13/3/3/42%/51% 3PT
- Held Damon Stoudamire to 41%, and 15% 3PT shooting.
- Held Jason Williams; after scoring 14 on 62% to just 2pts on 00%, 2pts on 167%, and finally in the series clincher 3 pts on 20%, even Bobby Jackson with an increase of minutes against Fisher failed 6 PPG on 35%
-Spurs guards didn't fair well either:
Porter 8.3pts on 34%
Johnson 6.2pts on 39%

Rick Fox contributed very well 10.0/4/4/45%
Holding guys like:
- Pippen 13.7pts, 4 TOs, on 41%
-Peja 20pts on 39%

I mean I can bring up countless examples, but I'm just explaining the gist of it.

Very true. The roleplayers did their job.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#116 » by ElGee » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:56 pm

OldSchoolNBA wrote:Hey ElGee, great post but wasn't the Rockets offense worse without Hakeem in 1995? In the 10 games Hakeem missed, their ORtg comes at 108.98 which is worse than their ORtg for the year which indicates the offense was better with Hakeem. I'm getting a different number for the DRtg too. I'm getting 113.1 instead of 116.2.


Actually, I have it as 116.8 (that was a typo on my part). Are you forgetting OT? It's an estimate anyway using B-R data...then again, let's double check we have the same 10 games. :)

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#117 » by Baller 24 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:57 pm

That was an awesome post by ElGee, sometimes I wonder what could have happened if Ralph Sampson never got hurt.

Anyways, with that in mind, that reminds me to bring up the 1995-1996 NBA season. O'Neal had a similar situation in games where the Magic outperformed with O'Neal injured behind the back of Penny Hardaway. He missed 28 games, in which he played in 54.

Orlando Magic
w/O'Neal: 40-14 (74%)
without O'Neal: 20-8 (71.4%)

They hardly missed a beat without him.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#118 » by ElGee » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:08 pm

Btw, ran Shaq's in/out numbers (and added them to the Hakeem post above for comparison):

96 +4.4 to 7.1
97 +2.9 to 5.4
98 +3.5 to 8.7 (How did Utah destroy that team??)
00-01 +7.7 to 6.5 (combined his 2 peak years for a 10g sample)
02 +5.1 to 8.1
03 +7.6 to 3.7
04 +1.4 to 4.2
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#119 » by An Unbiased Fan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:12 pm

ElGee wrote:98 +3.5 to 8.7 (How did Utah destroy that team??)

Pick n Roll

Malone hosted a radio show down in LA during the lockout, and said point blank that Utah used to key in on Shaq.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #7 

Post#120 » by OldSchoolNBA » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:13 pm

ElGee wrote:
OldSchoolNBA wrote:Hey ElGee, great post but wasn't the Rockets offense worse without Hakeem in 1995? In the 10 games Hakeem missed, their ORtg comes at 108.98 which is worse than their ORtg for the year which indicates the offense was better with Hakeem. I'm getting a different number for the DRtg too. I'm getting 113.1 instead of 116.2.


Actually, I have it as 116.8 (that was a typo on my part). Are you forgetting OT? It's an estimate anyway using B-R data...then again, let's double check we have the same 10 games. :)

On Houston's schedule, 16, 69, 70-76, 82.


Well, here's what I did. I have a hunch you are using a tad different method than me.

In those 10 games, here's their ORtg game by game

97.6
99.9
116.2
103.3
114.3
112.3
100.8
131.4
114.1
99.9

Avg = 1089.9 = 108.98

DRtg

111.8
110.3
103.3
110.4
118.6
104.2
117.4
128.2
121.1
106.1

Avg = 1131.4 = 113.1

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