Kobe Bryant: the most overrated defender imaginable

[AussieBuck]

How many years has it been now since Kobe took the best scoring wing each game? 3? 4? He's not the best wing defender on his team and he still has people pretending he's worth all-D teams?

[mysticbb]

he certainly passes the eye-test. he has excellent lateral quickness, great strength, can defend three positions with no problem, phenomenal ball-hawk (consistently around 2 steals per game), very good defensive re-bounder, and solid at rotations/doubles/pressure. his biggest problem by far is a tendency to over-help and leave guys open at the three, but then again the lakers have always been very good at defending the three, so its not that big a problem.

Nobody is disputing that Bryant could have done great as a defender, if he would used his skills for that. The point is: HE DIDN'T! For several years now Bryant isn't defending the best wing player of the opponent, he is not giving the effort necessary, and his biggest problem is also an area in which he is used MORE than in any other area. Do you know why? The most important area for a wing defender, closing out on the perimeter, is an area in which Bryant is one of the worst in the league. Over 50% of his defensive plays are defending players coming off screens and spot-up shooting. And he is below average in defending those things. He can be really good as isolation defender or defending the p&r, but it is not even 40% of his overall defensive plays. That makes him overall just an average defender, in some season slightly above average. That is backed up by those Synergy Stats numbers.

You don't think that this is a huge problem, but it is. It was such a big problem that the Mavericks in this years playoffs exploited his weaknesses much more than any other team before. Bryant had even problems to stay with Stojakovic. Watch those games and see how Bryant is sometimes completely lost on defense, his man is on the other side of the perimeter while Bryant defended nothing. Several open 3pt shots were the result.


And it seems like you are not aware of the rules regarding defensive teams, because you are pointing out SGs only. There are two spots for guards, it doesn't matter whether they are called SGs or not. There are two very important players missing on this list: Manu Ginobili and Chris Paul. Both played better defensively in the last couple of years, and Manu Ginobili didn't make a single All-Defense team. And unlike Bryant Ginobili actually defends the opponents best wing player. In each of your questionable seasons I can find 4 guards more deserving than Bryant. That is the reality. Bryant gets the awards, because the coaches are thinking "he could, if he would". But do you honestly think that is the way to give out such awards? Shouldn't it reward players who actually done better defensively? Bryant gets the All-NBA awards for being a complete player, that is completely warranted, but he should not get an award designed for the defensive performances when he doesn't consistently provide the necessary performance for that.

[EvanZ]

Nobody is disputing that Bryant could have done great as a defender, if he would used his skills for that. The point is: HE DIDN'T! For several years now Bryant isn't defending the best wing player of the opponent, he is not giving the effort necessary, and his biggest problem is also an area in which he is used MORE than in any other area. Do you know why? The most important area for a wing defender, closing out on the perimeter, is an area in which Bryant is one of the worst in the league. Over 50% of his defensive plays are defending players coming off screens and spot-up shooting. And he is below average in defending those things. He can be really good as isolation defender or defending the p&r, but it is not even 40% of his overall defensive plays. That makes him overall just an average defender, in some season slightly above average. That is backed up by those Synergy Stats numbers.

You have to be careful about interpreting those Synergy stats. Bryant doesn't really have a choice as far as defending spot-up attempts. He can't tell the offense how to run their plays. And spot-up plays are generally more efficient than other play types, so any player that defends those a lot will have an apparently worse looking PPP.

It's important to compare his spot-up PPP to other SG.

Kobe 1.01 (40%)
Wade 1.04 (39.5%)
Manu 0.97 (28.3%)
Johnson 0.99 (30.7%)
Ellis 0.95 (27.8%)

In that context, Kobe doesn't look all that bad to me (unless you're willing to call out Wade, too). I wish Synergy would make it easier to break out these stats by position, but right now you just have to do all the leg work manually.

BTW, if you want to see some good perimeter defense, look at Iguodala's spot-up PPP: 0.82 (27.4%). And Tony Allen 0.85 (34.3%).

[mysticbb]

You have to be careful about interpreting those Synergy stats. Bryant doesn't really have a choice as far as defending spot-up attempts. He can't tell the offense how to run their plays. And spot-up plays are generally more efficient than other play types, so any player that defends those a lot will have an apparently worse looking PPP.

The way you look at it make it seems as if you think the plays are run randomly. But in reality the teams are picking their plays in order to generate the biggest matchup advantages. It is also not really suprising that Bryant is involved in more of those situations, because most times he isn't defending the ball handler anyway. Against the Bulls he had to defend Keith Bogans. The lucky thing for Bryant was Bogans missed most of his open shot attempts, that basically made Bryant look better in those Synergy Stats despite the fact that Bryant done an awful job in those two games. Bryant's numbers are actually looking better than he really is due to the player he has to defend. Artest is usually the guy defending the better wing player. As I pointed out against the Mavericks the Lakers even tried to hide Bryant on Stojakovic, on a guy who was barely able to run due to his back problems. And Bryant failed!

Bryant is one of the worst perimeter players at closing out on the perimeter, one of the most important jobs for a perimeter defender. It is nice that he can defend post-ups, but how many wings are posting up? Bryant's weaknesses are in more important areas for a perimeter defender than his strength. That is likely one of the reasons why he is overrated by coaches and players on defense. He can do a lot of things and can do some thing exceptional well for a perimeter player, those skills are highly appreciated, but his impact is much lower. It would be much better, if Bryant would be exceptional at closing out and fighting through screens, but not so good at everything else, his impact would increase due to that.

[An Unbiased Fan]

How many years has it been now since Kobe took the best scoring wing each game? 3? 4? He's not the best wing defender on his team and he still has people pretending he's worth all-D teams?

Can we please stop with this myth. Kobe guards Lebron, Melo, Wade, and even guys like Westbrook, or Rondo if need be. What scoring wings is Kobe being hidden away from? Artest over the last 2 years guards the bigger 3's. and Kobe checks to quicker wings. For most of Kobe's career he has guarded everyone from Iverson to Tmac to Manu.

[EvanZ]

You have to be careful about interpreting those Synergy stats. Bryant doesn't really have a choice as far as defending spot-up attempts. He can't tell the offense how to run their plays. And spot-up plays are generally more efficient than other play types, so any player that defends those a lot will have an apparently worse looking PPP.

The lucky thing for Bryant was Bogans missed most of his open shot attempts, that basically made Bryant look better in those Synergy Stats despite the fact that Bryant done an awful job in those two games. Bryant's numbers are actually looking better than he really is due to the player he has to defend. Artest is usually the guy defending the better wing player. As I pointed out against the Mavericks the Lakers even tried to hide Bryant on Stojakovic, on a guy who was barely able to run due to his back problems. And Bryant failed!

In your previous post you implied his Synergy stats support up your assertion about his weak perimeter defense. Now you're saying his Synergy stats appear stronger than they really are. Which is it? My only point was that his Synergy stats per se don't *appear* to be that weak, which was your assertion.

[mysticbb]

In your previous post you implied his Synergy stats support up your assertion about his weak perimeter defense. Now you're saying his Synergy stats appear stronger than they really are. Which is it? My only point was that his Synergy stats per se don't *appear* to be that weak, which was your assertion.

His numbers are mediocre, that's what they are. They are weak for the two areas combined I mentioned (coming off screens and spot-up). The other areas might have better numbers, but usually Bryant isn't defending the best wing player anyway, thus those numbers are likely overrate him.
You are only looking at the ppp, not the amount of possessions and basically said that Bryant was just unlucky to have to defend more plays with spot-up shooting, but my point was also that teams are using Bryant's weakness in order to gain an advantage. The reason why Bryant has so many situations on defense on spot ups and coming off screens is due to him not closing out. Take Ginobili for example, he has less of those situations, because he defends them better. And you are obviously right that spot-up situations are one of the more efficient opportunities (due to the 3pt shot). So, forcing your opponents into a worse opportunity is also reflected in those numbers.

[EvanZ]

You are only looking at the ppp, not the amount of possessions and basically said that Bryant was just unlucky to have to defend more plays with spot-up shooting, but my point was also that teams are using Bryant's weakness in order to gain an advantage. The reason why Bryant has so many situations on defense on spot ups and coming off screens is due to him not closing out. Take Ginobili for example, he has less of those situations, because he defends them better. And you are obviously right that spot-up situations are one of the more efficient opportunities (due to the 3pt shot). So, forcing your opponents into a worse opportunity is also reflected in those numbers.

Do you think Wade, who has a similar % of spot-up plays defended, has similar close-out problems to Kobe?

[mysticbb]

Do you think Wade, who has a similar % of spot-up plays defended, has similar close-out problems to Kobe?

Yes, he has. But Wade is better at fighting through screens, and also slightly better as a team/help defender. Overall the seperation between those two isn't big. In the end one gets the nod via reputation, the other via highlights.

There are better perimeter defender in the league. You mentioned Tony Allen and Iguodala, I had Manu Ginobili, and we can add Ronnie Brewer and Luol Deng. Kenyon Dooling would be another name additional eligible for the guard spot next to Chris Paul. And Ron Artest was a better perimeter defender last season than Kobe Bryant (not only last season).

Btw: Obviously we have to be careful to draw conclusions only based on a few of those numbers. If we take a look at Ellis, we see a guy being pretty good at closing out, but he is also weak in other aspects of 1on1 and team defense, thus this advantage doesn't lead to an overall positive impact. Another example would be Shaun Livingston, the guy has trouble closing out, but he is damn good as an isolation defender, he can fight through screen very well and doesn't give his opponent much chances to score coming off screens. Overall his weakness is overshadowed by the rest of his defensive abilities.

[EvanZ]

Btw: Obviously we have to be careful to draw conclusions only based on a few of those numbers. If we take a look at Ellis, we see a guy being pretty good at closing out, but he is also weak in other aspects of 1on1 and team defense, thus this advantage doesn't lead to an overall positive impact.

Unfortunately, I am well aware of Ellis' defensive flaws.

[Jay30]

Nobody is disputing that Bryant could have done great as a defender, if he would used his skills for that. The point is: HE DIDN'T! For several years now Bryant isn't defending the best wing player of the opponent, he is not giving the effort necessary, and his biggest problem is also an area in which he is used MORE than in any other area.

Wow. Do you even watch Laker games? Kobe is still the guy put on the best SG's (Wade, Joe, Evans etc) and when the Lakers need to stop a PG (Rondo, Westbrook, Billups etc) they put Kobe on them, not Artest. Try again.

Code: Select all

 Do you know why? The most important area for a wing defender, closing out on the perimeter, is an area in which Bryant is one of the worst in the league. Over 50% of his defensive plays are defending players coming off screens and spot-up shooting. And he is below average in defending those things.

Worst in the league?
He's at 36.7% FG for spot-up. The Lakers are top 3 in defending the three.
He's excellent at closing out. Please.

He can be really good as isolation defender or defending the p&r, but it is not even 40% of his overall defensive plays. That makes him overall just an average defender, in some season slightly above average. That is backed up by those Synergy Stats numbers.

Um, the fact that he's excellent at defending isolation and P/R at the GUARD position alone makes him excellent.

You don't think that this is a huge problem, but it is. It was such a big problem that the Mavericks in this years playoffs exploited his weaknesses much more than any other team before. Bryant had even problems to stay with Stojakovic. Watch those games and see how Bryant is sometimes completely lost on defense, his man is on the other side of the perimeter while Bryant defended nothing. Several open 3pt shots were the result.

Please watch that series again. Nobody on the Lakers could guard the threes and even when they did the Mavs were hitting them. They were just hot. And lol @ you blaming him for the Mavs three-pt barrage, but not listing the fact that over the 82 game reg-season the Lakers were top 3 in defending the three.

And it seems like you are not aware of the rules regarding defensive teams, because you are pointing out SGs only. There are two spots for guards, it doesn't matter whether they are called SGs or not. There are two very important players missing on this list: Manu Ginobili and Chris Paul. Both played better defensively in the last couple of years, and Manu Ginobili didn't make a single All-Defense team. And unlike Bryant Ginobili actually defends the opponents best wing player. In each of your questionable seasons I can find 4 guards more deserving than Bryant. That is the reality. Bryant gets the awards, because the coaches are thinking "he could, if he would". But do you honestly think that is the way to give out such awards? Shouldn't it reward players who actually done better defensively? Bryant gets the All-NBA awards for being a complete player, that is completely warranted, but he should not get an award designed for the defensive performances when he doesn't consistently provide the necessary performance for that.

[/quote]
Nope. Most All-D teams have 1 PG and 1 SG. Kobe defends the best SG's and PG's just like Manu. Oh,and he doesn't only play 30 minutes a game. Wrong again. And how do you know what the coaches are thinking? lol

The reality is Bryant's legitimate awards (00,01,02,03,04,08,2010) came because he's the best defensive SG in the league.

[mysticbb]

Wow. Do you even watch Laker games? Kobe is still the guy put on the best SG's (Wade, Joe, Evans etc) and when the Lakers need to stop a PG (Rondo, Westbrook, Billups etc) they put Kobe on them, not Artest. Try again.

They put Bryant on the worse perimeter shooter and players who can't use screens very good. They used Bryant on Rondo, because he was lost against Ray Allen. They use him against the ballhandler, because he is unable to keep up with a guy around screens. Those are not per se the best perimeter shooters, those are not per se the best wing players.

Worst in the league?

Yes, he is. Because he is one of the worst at forcing a spotup shooter into a different shot, he is one of the worst at forcing turnovers at that. 1.7 TO% last season for players Bryant defended at spot-up shooting, guys like Tony Allen or Manu Ginobili are at 10 TO%. Bryant lets his man shooting those 3pt shots, that's why he is one of the worst in the league.

He's at 36.7% FG for spot-up.

THOSE ARE 3PT SHOTS! That is above league average in 3pt shooting! AND he is below league average (WAY BELOW) in forcing turnovers for spot-up shooters.

The Lakers are top 3 in defending the three.

But not because Bryant let them shot 36.7% on those shots. Do you even realise that Bryant is worse at that than the Lakers in average? Last season the players made 36% against Bryant of their 3pt attempts, 38% in spot-up situations and 37.5% coming off screens. Bryant is not the reason why the Lakers are one of the better teams at defending the 3pt shot, Bryant is below league average at that. The Lakers are Top3 DESPITE Bryant being so bad at it.

He's excellent at closing out. Please.

No, he is NOT. And the numbers are proving it.

Um, the fact that he's excellent at defending isolation and P/R at the GUARD position alone makes him excellent.

No, that saves him to be an average defender overall. If an area in which he is excellent is in the minority of his defensive plays and those areas are even lower efficient scoring opportunities anyway, he doesn't make him excellent overall. Defending spot-up shots and shot attempts after screens is more important, because those shot attempts are more efficient overall. And Bryant is one of the worst at forcing more difficult shots and turnovers in those situations.

Please watch that series again. Nobody on the Lakers could guard the threes and even when they did the Mavs were hitting them. They were just hot. And lol @ you blaming him for the Mavs three-pt barrage, but not listing the fact that over the 82 game reg-season the Lakers were top 3 in defending the three.

I have no idea what to say about that, because you either haven't watch a single game of that series or you are just ignoring it. Seriously, go, watch the games and look what Bryant is doing against Terry, Stevenson, Stojakovic or Kidd. Heck, the guy is sometimes NOT EVEN CLOSE to his man, because he is somewhat rooming around and is defending not a single Mavericks player. He got abused by Terry, he gave Stevenson open shots and was unable to follow Stojakovic around screens and in transition. In game 4 there were possessions in which Bryant was on the complete opposite side as his man. We see Gasol or Artest closing out on Bryant's man, because Bryant lost him on a screen and didn't even try to get close. The Mavericks not just were hot, they exploited a weakness I CALLED BEFORE THE SERIES STARTED!

Nope. Most All-D teams have 1 PG and 1 SG. Kobe defends the best SG's and PG's just like Manu. Oh,and he doesn't only play 30 minutes a game. Wrong again. And how do you know what the coaches are thinking? lol

WTF? The teams most times consist just of two guards, two forwards and a center. Heck, they can even change that to one guard, three forwards and a center. BUT THERE IS NO RULE THAT THEY HAVE TO SELECT A SG! You are just wrong about that.

And Ginobili played more minutes good defense per game than Bryant in each of the last 5 seasons.

The reality is Bryant's legitimate awards (00,01,02,03,04,08,2010) came because he's the best defensive SG in the league.

You can very well believe that, but you presented not even a single consistent argument for the years 2004, 2008 and 2010.

[Jay30]

Wow. Do you even watch Laker games? Kobe is still the guy put on the best SG's (Wade, Joe, Evans etc) and when the Lakers need to stop a PG (Rondo, Westbrook, Billups etc) they put Kobe on them, not Artest. Try again.

They put Bryant on the worse perimeter shooter and players who can't use screens very good. They used Bryant on Rondo, because he was lost against Ray Allen. They use him against the ballhandler, because he is unable to keep up with a guy around screens. Those are not per se the best perimeter shooters, those are not per se the best wing players.

Worst in the league?

Yes, he is. Because he is one of the worst at forcing a spotup shooter into a different shot, he is one of the worst at forcing turnovers at that. 1.7 TO% last season for players Bryant defended at spot-up shooting, guys like Tony Allen or Manu Ginobili are at 10 TO%. Bryant lets his man shooting those 3pt shots, that's why he is one of the worst in the league.

He's at 36.7% FG for spot-up.

THOSE ARE 3PT SHOTS! That is above league average in 3pt shooting! AND he is below league average (WAY BELOW) in forcing turnovers for spot-up shooters.

The Lakers are top 3 in defending the three.

But not because Bryant let them shot 36.7% on those shots. Do you even realise that Bryant is worse at that than the Lakers in average? Last season the players made 36% against Bryant of their 3pt attempts, 38% in spot-up situations and 37.5% coming off screens. Bryant is not the reason why the Lakers are one of the better teams at defending the 3pt shot, Bryant is below league average at that. The Lakers are Top3 DESPITE Bryant being so bad at it.

He's excellent at closing out. Please.

No, he is NOT. And the numbers are proving it.

Um, the fact that he's excellent at defending isolation and P/R at the GUARD position alone makes him excellent.

No, that saves him to be an average defender overall. If an area in which he is excellent is in the minority of his defensive plays and those areas are even lower efficient scoring opportunities anyway, he doesn't make him excellent overall. Defending spot-up shots and shot attempts after screens is more important, because those shot attempts are more efficient overall. And Bryant is one of the worst at forcing more difficult shots and turnovers in those situations.

Please watch that series again. Nobody on the Lakers could guard the threes and even when they did the Mavs were hitting them. They were just hot. And lol @ you blaming him for the Mavs three-pt barrage, but not listing the fact that over the 82 game reg-season the Lakers were top 3 in defending the three.

I have no idea what to say about that, because you either haven't watch a single game of that series or you are just ignoring it. Seriously, go, watch the games and look what Bryant is doing against Terry, Stevenson, Stojakovic or Kidd. Heck, the guy is sometimes NOT EVEN CLOSE to his man, because he is somewhat rooming around and is defending not a single Mavericks player. He got abused by Terry, he gave Stevenson open shots and was unable to follow Stojakovic around screens and in transition. In game 4 there were possessions in which Bryant was on the complete opposite side as his man. We see Gasol or Artest closing out on Bryant's man, because Bryant lost him on a screen and didn't even try to get close. The Mavericks not just were hot, they exploited a weakness I CALLED BEFORE THE SERIES STARTED!

Nope. Most All-D teams have 1 PG and 1 SG. Kobe defends the best SG's and PG's just like Manu. Oh,and he doesn't only play 30 minutes a game. Wrong again. And how do you know what the coaches are thinking? lol

WTF? The teams most times consist just of two guards, two forwards and a center. Heck, they can even change that to one guard, three forwards and a center. BUT THERE IS NO RULE THAT THEY HAVE TO SELECT A SG! You are just wrong about that.

And Ginobili played more minutes good defense per game than Bryant in each of the last 5 seasons.

The reality is Bryant's legitimate awards (00,01,02,03,04,08,2010) came because he's the best defensive SG in the league.

You can very well believe that, but you presented not even a single consistent argument for the years 2004, 2008 and 2010.

[Jay30]

They put Bryant on the worse perimeter shooter and players who can't use screens very good.

Wow. You're clueless. Do you even watch Laker games? Kobe is still the guy put on the best SG's (Wade, Joe, Evans etc) and when the Lakers need to stop a PG (Rondo, Westbrook, Billups etc) they put Kobe on them, not Artest. Try again.

They used Bryant on Rondo, because he was lost against Ray Allen.

No, they put him on Rondo to take advantage of his excellent team/help defense and to hide Fisher.

Doc Rivers: "Kobe is the best help/team defender since Pippen"

Yes, he is

Sorry, 36.7% FG at spot-up is excellent. Lakers are CONSISTENTLY among the best at defending the three. Try again. I guess LBJ,Wade, Thabo,Moute,Hill, Battier are also among the worst.
LMAO.

The Lakers are Top3 DESPITE Bryant being so bad at it.

Sorry, a huge majority of those threes are taken against Bryant, and he plays 40+ minutes a night.

lol @ "despite" Bryant.

No, he is NOT. And the numbers are proving it.

Yes, he is.

No, that saves him to be an average defender overall. If an area in which he is excellent is in the minority of his defensive plays and those areas are even lower efficient scoring opportunities anyway, he doesn't make him excellent overall.

Wrong again. The above-average SG's utilize a ton of P/R's and isolation plays and the fact that he's excellent at stopping that makes him above-average. He also has the same advantage over PG's running P/R's or SF's running isolation as they often do.

I have no idea what to say about that, because you either haven't watch a single game of that series or you are just ignoring it.

Looks like you just want to blame Bryant for everything.

Lakers are excellent at defending the three during the RS--"it's despite Bryant"!
Lakers struggle with it during PS--"It's all Bryant's fault!"

Go back and watch the series. The Mavs were going off from three against all the Lakers AND even when he was on the bench. Oh, and the guy he was guarding fo the vast majority o his minutes (Kidd) shot terrible from three, but I bet you will probably ignore that.

WTF? The teams most times consist just of two guards, two forwards and a center. Heck, they can even change that to one guard, three forwards and a center. BUT THERE IS NO RULE THAT THEY HAVE TO SELECT A SG! You are just wrong about that.

Majority of teams have a SG. You're just wrong.

And Ginobili played more minutes good defense per game than Bryant in each of the last 5 seasons.

Sure, buddy.
Kobe--40 MIn a game
Gino--30 min a game
Sorry, but Kobe's value destroys his. lol @ at a SG playing 30 minutes a game getting all-defense.

You can very well believe that, but you presented not even a single consistent argument for the years 2004, 2008 and 2010.

[/quote]
Yeah, I did. Guess you didn't read the thread.

Face it-Kobe is one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

Get mad hater.

[mysticbb]

Yeah, I did. Guess you didn't read the thread.

You just repeated what you said before WITHOUT PROVIDING ANY DATA TO BACK IT UP!

Get mad hater. :)

That's your response? Hater? Well, in that case it is settled. :D

[Chronz]

Well played mysticbb

[Baller 24]

Can we please stop with this myth. Kobe guards Lebron, Melo, Wade, and even guys like Westbrook, or Rondo if need be. What scoring wings is Kobe being hidden away from? Artest over the last 2 years guards the bigger 3's. and Kobe checks to quicker wings. For most of Kobe's career he has guarded everyone from Iverson to Tmac to Manu.

Absolutely false. McGrady with the Rockets was hardly ever guarded by Bryant. '05 he torched Caron Butler, '06 he had a game winning layup where he took it particularly from the half-court line all the way to the basket with Bryant NOT on him during the entire stretch. And out of every defender in league, Ron Artest has done a better job on LeBron James compared to ANY one I've ever seen do, and that isn't even close. Melo was guarded by Ariza in the '09 run, Bryant does a horrible job on getting back on defense against even the most mediocre offensive players that have the ability to torch from the 3-point line (Battier), he never guarded Brooks in the Semi-Finals (2009).

BTW, Jay30 is very clearly a previously banned poster here to troll, don't understand why anyone's wasting time with him.

[Jay30]

You just repeated what you said before WITHOUT PROVIDING ANY DATA TO BACK IT UP!

Yeah, I did. Try again.

That's your response? Hater? Well, in that case it is settled.

[Jay30]

[ Melo was guarded by Ariza in the '09 run,

Wrong. Kobe spent a large amount of time on Melo in those WCF.

Bryant does a horrible job on getting back on defense against even the most mediocre offensive players

Wow.

[W Z]

This exchange between mysticbb and Jay30 summarizes the RealGM boards perfectly.