RealGM Top 100 List #8

[An Unbiased Fan]

Just went and did a quick comparison of Kobe's and Hakeem's playoff scoring #'s.

Hakeem = 33PPG, 56%TS, ORTG 134, Assist % 22.6
Kobe = 32PPG, 56%TS, ORTG 115, Assist % 22.0

Certainly doesn't appear that Bryant has a big edge on him if any.

What numbers are you looking at? From 08-10' Kobe was 26+ AST% every year. You're taking stats from differing years.

Hakeem was certainly a beast in his 94-95 title runs, but it's not like he sustained that kind of output through his career.

[Sedale Threatt]

Having a really tough time with this one. I want to say that Hakeem had the greater peak, but there just wasn't quite the same consistency.

Plus, I'd put up Tim's 03 title run right on par with what Dream did during his -- 25/15/5/3, with a near quadruple-double in the title clincher. Epic, just not as eye-catching as Olajuwon's arsenal of balletic beauty.

All that said, the last vote was down to Shaq and Dream, for me, so it makes since to give it to Olajuwon. So, so close.

[34Dayz]

AUF, all those stats were taken from Kobe's and Hakeem's Peak Playoff Scoring Year except for ORTG even though Hakeem's ORTG was almost always higher then Kobe's so that's fairly irrelevant.

Even if you took a sample size of lets say 5-8 years I don't think Kobe would have a significant edge over Hakeem but I cant say that for sure until I do a comparison.

For now though we can atleast say comparing 2-3 year peaks Hakeem was certainly not inferior to Kobe when it came to offensive impact.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I've got Olajuwon right after Duncan. However, I can certainly see the case, I mean why not? He certainly established himself as the best center of the 90s pack. His impact is very well evident with a solid supporting cast in place --'85 season went from worst team in the league to a playoff team, and the season after upset the Lakers and went all the way to the Finals.

I've seen every single documentary out there out there of Olajuwon and he's been an utterly dominant player, is it his fault the Rockets management didn't cooperate? For example Kobe Bryant's always had it perfectly, from whining to get to the Lakers to whining to get traded if he didn't get solid players surrounding him..Olajuwon never did so until the early part of the 90s, he stuck there and played with the crap they gave him. Rockets organization is kind of like the Spurs, they don't like to spend money, they'd rather "try" and get lucky with some kind of home grown talent surrounding them.

One of the seasons Olajuwon went down, the Rockets claimed he faked the injury because it was a lost season anyway, as you know he's a very devoted Muslim, and that really pissed him off. He stated that he wanted out, either get him surrounding players, or he's out. Though you know what? He stayed, he stuck through the thick and thin with a new coach (Chaney…following Rudy T), and completely changed his game at peak form.

This is all narrative. Kobe "whined" because the Laker mangament was handing over the keys to Buss's son, who was willing to waste Kobe's prime on the hopes of Bynum becoming the next Shaq.

I'm about on-court play. I don't care if Magic or Shaq got coaches fired, or if Wilt slept with 10 groupies before a game, or if MJ flew down to Atlantic City before games. It doesn't really matter.

Stop with the 2 titles. Here's my theory that makes absolute sense, it's hard to discredit when the credit is certainly due.

You do realized that I was replying to a question from Doc, right? I'm not sure why you make it seem like I was diminishing Hakeem's titles.

Doc asked how many titles Duncan would have won in Hakeem's era, so I reverse the question.

You're focusing too much on career, if that's the case Robert Horry will be coming up soon too. And if he was your 2nd favorite player of all-time, you'd understand and know how great and dominant of a player he was, he's easily on par with any of these players, are we going to take hits on Olajuwon because he didn't have a superior supporting cast? I stated the same thing in the arguments between Duncan v Shaq, it's easy to win championships when you've got it made in heaven for you, and when you've got a supporting cast that consist of the best of the best players in the league (Bryant).

This doesn't make any sense. Career resumes isn't just about rings. Horry doens't have 9+ All-NBA 1st teams like Kobe & TD. Horry didn't have the career impact or accolades that TD & Kobe do.

Hakeem is a great player, but so are TD & Kobe. And both those guys had better career resumes, better career success, were just as impactful, and just as talented.

Hakeem IS my 2nd favorite player ever, but Bo Jackosn is my favorite Football player ever. That doesn't mean I will rank him over Jim Brown.

[An Unbiased Fan]

AUF, all those stats were taken from Kobe's and Hakeem's Peak Playoff Scoring Year except for ORTG even though Hakeem's ORTG was almost always higher then Kobe's so that's fairly irrelevant.

Even if you took a sample size of lets say 5-8 years I don't think Kobe would have a significant edge over Hakeem but I cant say that for sure until I do a comparison.

For now though we can atleast say comparing 2-3 year peaks Hakeem was certainly not inferior to Kobe when it came to offensive impact.

From 94'-95', Hakeem was a beast, I think we all know that. He was directly creating around 37.5 PPG in 94' & 42 PPG in 95'. But that only 2 years in his career.For most of his playoff career, Hakeem was creating 26-32 PPG.

From 01' -10', Kobe was creating 35 PPG or more in the playoffs. He had six 40+ PPG runs. And I'm not even touching on the closing factor in the playoffs.

[cpower]

Vote: Tim Duncan

Nomination: Barkley

Tim VS Dream, this is really a close one. Both are skilled big men with a lot of success, Tim has two more rings and but I believe Hakeem was the better individual player. I vote for Duncan for his leadership and additional rings, but the gap is really not that much.

[Dr Positivity]

Just noting something about Dirk vs Robinson. I'm a firm believer that skill and offensive versatility will carry you through the playoffs more than physical ability. Hell, we saw it with Dirk vs Lebron too. Nobody could stop Dirk's combination of scoring, creating eventual 3s when doubles come, or opening up penetration lanes for teammates. Dallas OTOH pretty much figured out how to clog up Lebron's drives and then he had no left hand, or refused to go to his (his jumpshot). That would not have happened if his scoring game involved the post, a can't leave open jumpshot, or Durant like off ball slashing

With that said, Robinson was obviously a way better defensive player than Dirk, so even if we conclude Dirk's offense is quite a bit ahead, Robinson can still be considered the better candidate. Robinson's lack of longevity matters to me though

[JordansBulls]

I would probably start a franchise with Hakeem and then Duncan and then Kobe, but as far as accomplishments I am taking Kobe here. Not only that but you more than likely will have more series as the favorite with him than with Hakeem.
Hakeem was 9-2 in series with HCA while Kobe was 24-2 and Duncan 21-5. Hakeem and Duncan didn't lead in stats that much to say they definitley deserve to be over Kobe. They have a case, don't get me wrong, but it isn't clear cut.
Right now I am taking Kobe, but I can see arguments for Hakeem and Duncan as both of them won with franchises that had never won anything before, while Kobe went to a franchise that was known for winning and had 11 titles and 24 finals appearances before he ever came.

Tentative:
Vote: Kobe Bryant
Nominate: George Mikan

[Laimbeer]

For me, Duncan was more impactful and dominant than Kobe. Kobe got three as Shaq's second, and when he won as the man he wasn't the force Duncan or Dream were. Also, Duncan has four titles to Kobe's two as the guy.

Dream was impactful and dominant in the way Duncan was, but he wasn't the consistent, reliable leader and franchise guy Timmy was. Duncan cultivated an atmosphere where other moving parts could come and go, but because of the team attitude and system, they won four titles over a number of years.

Duncan combined Kobe's consistent excellence over a long period with a Dream-level type of effectiveness.


Vote: Duncan
Nominate: Mikan

[RoyceDa59]

Vote: Duncan
Nomination: Nowitzki

The next 3 will go (to round out the top 10):

Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe

And then the field will break wide open and I'm curious to see who falls from 11-15. Two Malone's, Robertson, Robinson and the Doctor are my guesses (with West making a strong case as well). Should make for some great discussions.

[An Unbiased Fan]

For me, Duncan was more impactful and dominant than Kobe. Kobe got three as Shaq's second, and when he won as the man he wasn't the force Duncan or Dream were. Also, Duncan has four titles to Kobe's two as the guy.

To be fair, Kobe's PTS% & AST% numbers were still high during the 3-peat. And in the 6 times the Spurs & LA met in the playoffs, Kobe outplayed Duncan in four of them. If you throw out 99'(pre-prime Kobe), and 08'(past-prime TD), Kobe outplayed Duncan in the 01',02',04' series, while TD outplayed Bryant in 03'.

That 01'-04' period was in Duncan's prime.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkvpnmAk2xU[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPWvJ2wr44[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjr2kNQVbXg[/youtube]

[Gongxi]

Kobe has impressive longevity, but if this project is about the best players as opposed to the best accolades, there's really not much of an argument for him as compared to Duncan and Olajuwon. Definitely in the Moses/Dr. J/Karl/West/Oscar/KG tier.

[Sedale Threatt]

Agreed. I don't see any case for him whatsoever over either Duncan or Olajuwon.

[Baller 24]

Kobe has impressive longevity, but if this project is about the best players as opposed to the best accolades, there's really not much of an argument for him as compared to Duncan and Olajuwon. Definitely in the Moses/Dr. J/Karl/West/Oscar/KG tier.

Exactly, something I'm continued to stress, seems like 10% of the posters participating are focusing and narrowing in too much on the career factor.

[ElGee]

Kobe has impressive longevity, but if this project is about the best players as opposed to the best accolades, there's really not much of an argument for him as compared to Duncan and Olajuwon. Definitely in the Moses/Dr. J/Karl/West/Oscar/KG tier.

Impressive is a good word, but not necessarily against these all-timers. As a ballpark measure, look at top-10 MVP finishes. Kobe had his 10th this year.

K. Malone 14
Duncan 11
Hakeem 10
Moses 10
Kobe 10
Dirk 9
Barkley 9
LeBron 8
Erving 7 (+3 ABA MVPs)
KG 7

West has 10 all-nba 1st teams, Oscar has 9. Garnett's longevity looks the worse here by these general measures, but simply acknowledging the losing bias involved in his 06 and 07 seasons basically shores up the gap.

[ElGee]

Agreed. I don't see any case for him whatsoever over either Duncan or Olajuwon.

What's the case for him over Karl Malone? Malone has a career comparable to the guys were discussing, I just differentiate based on peak play. But Kobe and Karl have comparable peaks...

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe has impressive longevity, but if this project is about the best players as opposed to the best accolades, there's really not much of an argument for him as compared to Duncan and Olajuwon. Definitely in the Moses/Dr. J/Karl/West/Oscar/KG tier.

Impressive is a good word, but not necessarily against these all-timers. As a ballpark measure, look at top-10 MVP finishes. Kobe had his 10th this year.

K. Malone 14
Duncan 11
Hakeem 10
Moses 10
Kobe 10
Dirk 9
Barkley 9
LeBron 8
Erving 7 (+3 ABA MVPs)
KG 7

West has 10 all-nba 1st teams, Oscar has 9. Garnett's longevity looks the worse here by these general measures, but simply acknowledging the losing bias involved in his 06 and 07 seasons basically shores up the gap.

Wait a second though. Kobe is #10 all-time in MVP Shares, and has 9 Top 5 MVP finishes. How many players were a Top 5 MVP candidate for nearly a decade? During his peak, Kobe has 5 straight Top 4 MVP finishes, 5 straight All-NBA 1st teams, and 2.731 MVP shares.

[Gongxi]

I think Sedale just means he can see that there's something, even if he himself doesn't buy into it (although he may); as compared to Olajuwon/Duncan, where there's just plain nothing.

If Kobe ends up first out of that next tier that I identified, okay. But I don't know why it's a forgone conclusion that he will (as some have speculated).

[Sedale Threatt]

Agreed. I don't see any case for him whatsoever over either Duncan or Olajuwon.

What's the case for him over Karl Malone? Malone has a career comparable to the guys were discussing, I just differentiate based on peak play. But Kobe and Karl have comparable peaks...

Haven't really thought about it, to be honest. Karl's another player whose case is greatly enhanced by the longevity factor. He also has a pretty impressive and lengthy peak, however. I don't really have the institutional knowledge to provide a lengthy breakdown, otherwise.

In generalities: I have a high degree of respect for Karl. Fabulous scorer whose production did not drop as his athleticism declined, thanks to all the hard work he put in over the years, both in the weight room and developing his skills. Loved his passing, as well as the fact he turned himself into an excellent defender. Really enjoyed his one year with the Lakers. I appreciate high-IQ players above all others, and he was definitely one.

I just look at his career and think there should have been more team success, especially having been paired next to a player of Stockton's caliber. I know how you feel about making too much/too little of Finals games, but I can't help holding it against him that he wasn't at his best when he had opportunities to win titles.

I'd be interested to see one of the project brains provide a numbers-oriented comparison.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Agreed. I don't see any case for him whatsoever over either Duncan or Olajuwon.

What's the case for him over Karl Malone? Malone has a career comparable to the guys were discussing, I just differentiate based on peak play. But Kobe and Karl have comparable peaks...

For starters, Kobe's a vastly better playoff performer.

But how do you define and measure a player's "peak"? How many years do we count? What makes one's peak better than another's, specifically?