RealGM Top 100 List #9 -- Post Shot Clock Only (No Mikan)

[FJS]

Vote Hakeem
Nomination Dirk

[pancakes3]

To be fair Pip is the better defender, rebounder, passer and all in the modern era. I don't think it would be a travesty at all personally.

how do you figure?

[Baller 24]

Let's go ahead and have the cut-off, it makes more sense and not to waste nominations. I went ahead and spoke to PenBeast and let him know too.

This is by far one of the easiest votes for me.

Vote - Hakeem Olajuwon

Nominations - Dirk Nowitzki

Wade deserves some mention over the likes of Pippen, Havlicek, Fraizer, Nash, ETC.

What would be worth listening to is Robinson v Wade IMO

[RoyceDa59]

Vote: Hakeem

Nominate: Dirk

[colts18]

Huh, well I guess I won't have to decide about Duncan vs Garnett in this project.

Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon

You want to know Hakeem vs Kobe, well how about Garnett vs Kobe? Back in '04-05, people would have gone for Garnett easily. What changed after that?

Well, yes, Kobe did reach some new heights, but I think everyone needs to ask themselves how much differently they'd rate Garnett now if Minny didn't drop off the face of the earth. I fully expect that had Garnett kept more with the prominence he'd previously had, we'd at least have a very tough debate between Kobe & KG.

I personally have come to the conclusion that Garnett just got screwed relative to Kobe in those years and that if I truly give Garnett the peak nod, it doesn't make sense to pick Kobe over him here, but I don't expect most to agree with me.

Garnett didn't get screwed. Kobe took a team of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Chris Mimh, Brian Cook to the playoffs. KG had scrubs and he missed the playoffs for 3 straight years. Kobe was simply a better player from 05-07 and certainly afterward also.

[Baller 24]

Garnett didn't get screwed. Kobe took a team of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Chris Mimh, Brian Cook to the playoffs. KG had scrubs and he missed the playoffs for 3 straight years. Kobe was simply a better player from 05-07 and certainly afterward also.

I've simply never understood one fact. When many speak of Bryant from '05 to '07, they act as if those were the only players he played with. There have been players that have taken worse casts to the playoffs (early KG, Orlando Tmac, '09 Wade, LeBron's Cavs for example.

And somehow every single time, in this kind of argument they forget Lamar Odom, like he didn't even exist pre-2008. He compiled a 15.3 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 4.6 APG, FG 47% average during that three season stretch where he even consisted of being the focal point of facilitating the offense.

If you want to discredit Lamar Odom's impact, go even far to the playoffs 19/10/48% averages --obviously playing at an even higher level, including a few near triple double games (22/9/11 IIRC). Just find it ridiculous that this guy gets consistently underrated as a player (even today).

[JordansBulls]

Let's go ahead and have the cut-off, it makes more sense and not to waste nominations. I went ahead and spoke to PenBeast and let him know too.

This is by far one of the easiest votes for me.

Vote - Hakeem Olajuwon

Nominations - Dirk Nowitzki

Wade deserves some mention over the likes of Pippen, Havlicek, Fraizer, Nash, ETC.

What would be worth listening to is Robinson v Wade IMO

What do you mean the cut off's? Why shouldn't Mikan get nominated?

[Dr Positivity]

I love the post shot clock idea. Not only do none of us know what to do with Mikan, but I'm really glad I don't have to vote in Neil Johnston

I'll make a suggestion. After the top 100 is done, we spend the last week or just one thread ranking the top 5 pre shot clock guys. Then under the top 100 we put them under the heading "Pre Shot clock rankings"

I change my nomination to Dirk Nowitzki, if this holds

[colts18]

Garnett didn't get screwed. Kobe took a team of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Chris Mimh, Brian Cook to the playoffs. KG had scrubs and he missed the playoffs for 3 straight years. Kobe was simply a better player from 05-07 and certainly afterward also.

I've simply never understood one fact. When many speak of Bryant from '05 to '07, they act as if those were the only players he played with. There have been players that have taken worse casts to the playoffs (early KG, Orlando Tmac, '09 Wade, LeBron's Cavs for example.

And somehow every single time, in this kind of argument they forget Lamar Odom, like he didn't even exist pre-2008. He compiled a 15.3 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 4.6 APG, FG 47% average during that three season stretch where he even consisted of being the focal point of facilitating the offense.

If you want to discredit Lamar Odom's impact, go even far to the playoffs 19/10/48% averages --obviously playing at an even higher level, including a few near triple double games (22/9/11 IIRC). Just find it ridiculous that this guy gets consistently underrated as a player (even today).

He was a good player, but he is like a 3rd or 4th option on a contending team. You can't rely on him as your #2. I'd argue that Kobe had it worse in 06-07 than LeBron did in 07 who did have an all-star in Big Z. Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Smush Parker, Vladimir Radmonovic, Brian Cook, young Andrew Bynum all played big minutes. Every single one of those guys is now either out of the league, terrible now, or was too young to contribute. That was a legitimate bad cast.

[Baller 24]

Let's go ahead and have the cut-off, it makes more sense and not to waste nominations. I went ahead and spoke to PenBeast and let him know too.

This is by far one of the easiest votes for me.

Vote - Hakeem Olajuwon

Nominations - Dirk Nowitzki

Wade deserves some mention over the likes of Pippen, Havlicek, Fraizer, Nash, ETC.

What would be worth listening to is Robinson v Wade IMO

What do you mean the cut off's? Why shouldn't Mikan get nominated?

Post Shot-Clock and onwards are the only players available to be nominated/voted. That means if anyone wants to change their nomination, please do so.

[Dr Positivity]

Huh, well I guess I won't have to decide about Duncan vs Garnett in this project.

Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon

You want to know Hakeem vs Kobe, well how about Garnett vs Kobe? Back in '04-05, people would have gone for Garnett easily. What changed after that?

Well, yes, Kobe did reach some new heights, but I think everyone needs to ask themselves how much differently they'd rate Garnett now if Minny didn't drop off the face of the earth. I fully expect that had Garnett kept more with the prominence he'd previously had, we'd at least have a very tough debate between Kobe & KG.

I personally have come to the conclusion that Garnett just got screwed relative to Kobe in those years and that if I truly give Garnett the peak nod, it doesn't make sense to pick Kobe over him here, but I don't expect most to agree with me.

Garnett didn't get screwed. Kobe took a team of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Chris Mimh, Brian Cook to the playoffs. KG had scrubs and he missed the playoffs for 3 straight years. Kobe was simply a better player from 05-07 and certainly afterward also.

And Lamar Odom

IMO Kobe's 06 help = KG's 05 help. Kobe won 45 and KG won 44. It's the same season except the Wolves played in a rare year where 44 Ws doesn't get you a playoff spot. 07 the Lakers look much better than 06 to me. Turiaf, VladRad, Mo Evans are at least respectable system players, young Andrew Bynum was producing, Walton had by far his best season ever and enough to earn a 6 year 30 million deal, probably Kwame's best season.

KG's 06 and 07 help is definitely below Kobe's at the time. KG literally ONLY had scrubs and bench players. Kobe had Odom and Phil Jackson on top of scrubs in 06 and then respectable bench players in 07, which does make a difference.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Garnett didn't get screwed. Kobe took a team of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Chris Mimh, Brian Cook to the playoffs. KG had scrubs and he missed the playoffs for 3 straight years. Kobe was simply a better player from 05-07 and certainly afterward also.

I've simply never understood one fact. When many speak of Bryant from '05 to '07, they act as if those were the only players he played with. There have been players that have taken worse casts to the playoffs (early KG, Orlando Tmac, '09 Wade, LeBron's Cavs for example.

And somehow every single time, in this kind of argument they forget Lamar Odom, like he didn't even exist pre-2008. He compiled a 15.3 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 4.6 APG, FG 47% average during that three season stretch where he even consisted of being the focal point of facilitating the offense.

If you want to discredit Lamar Odom's impact, go even far to the playoffs 19/10/48% averages --obviously playing at an even higher level, including a few near triple double games (22/9/11 IIRC). Just find it ridiculous that this guy gets consistently underrated as a player (even today).

The problem with Odom is that he was often hurt, and wildly inconsitent back then. He only played 64 games in 05', and 56 games in 07'. In fact, those teams were besieged with multiple injuries in that 3 year span, which makes it even more impressive that they made the playoffs in a tough conference. The Laker's front court was an IR mess.

[Baller 24]

He was a good player, but he is like a 3rd or 4th option on a contending team. You can't rely on him as your #2. I'd argue that Kobe had it worse in 06-07 than LeBron did in 07 who did have an all-star in Big Z. Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Smush Parker, Vladimir Radmonovic, Brian Cook, young Andrew Bynum all played big minutes. Every single one of those guys is now either out of the league, terrible now, or was too young to contribute. That was a legitimate bad cast.

He can very clearly be a third option on a contending team, that's a no doubter. As for your comment on the players that were playing with Bryant, they were statistically contributing in positive ways, even though they're incapable of shouldering the offense

…listen, I'm not saying it wasn't "bad", but I'm suggesting despite their status with the league, they still weren’t out there shooting averages that were inefficient, and were still very capable of playing in Phil Jackson's system. Just throwing that out there, I'm not suggesting it wasn't bad, but just stating you're overstating your points.

[Baller 24]

The problem with Odom is that he was often hurt, and wildly inconsitent back then. He only played 64 games in 05', and 56 games in 07'. In fact, those teams were besieged with multiple injuries in that 3 year span, which makes it even more impressive that they made the playoffs in a tough conference. The Laker's front court was an IR mess.

Impressive that he won 45 & 42 games? Ehh, seems about right, nothing incredibly impressive about that IMO, especially considering in '06 the west aside from the Spurs & Mavs was very weakened from the prior year (only three 50 + win teams, kind of like the '01 AI Sixers run), with multiple stars injured (Suns--Amar'e, McGrady & Yao -- Rockets, T-Wolves---blown up roster) .

[Dr Positivity]

Really hope Moses doesn't get overrated in this project. One of the guys whose impact is not as great as his stats would indicate.

For one thing, he is not like the other elite big men where you can build the offense around his his post game, he wasn't a good enough passer to keep everyone involved. You need to surround a player like him with players who individually can get their own, not role players who can shoot (like you could around Hakeem/Shaq/D-Rob/KAJ etc). When he was in the paint he just had tunnel vision, the ball wasn't coming out but to his credit he was an absolute horse on the offensive glass. And like other great big men, he didn't have the same defensive impact as them, monster on the offensive boards but stats inflated from rebounding own misses. Says a lot about a center when his teams are literally some of the worst defensively in the league (last in '78, second last in '79, 18th out of 22 in '80, 16 out of 22 in '81 and '82), especially when he had decent defensive players/enforcers around him (Robert Reid, Billy Paultz etc). He won a ring, but he joined a team which the year before had gone 58-24, gotten to game 6 of the finals with Caldwell Jones in his place, and had been serious contenders for three consecutive years. I don't know, from everything I've seen of him, from watching his games, from looking at his career year by year, he just comes out very overrated to me (usually ranked at 11-12 on most lists).

Yeah I have Moses lower than where he got nominated (#12) as well, I have a hard time justifying preferring him to any of prime West, Oscar, KG, then he probably has a better peak than Erving and Karl but obviously far far less top of his game years so they get the edge

[pancakes3]

Impressive that he won 45 & 42 games? Ehh, seems about right, nothing incredibly impressive about that IMO, especially considering in '06 the west aside from the Spurs & Mavs was very weakened from the prior year (only three 50 + win teams, kind of like the '01 AI Sixers run), with multiple stars injured (Suns--Amar'e, McGrady & Yao -- Rockets, T-Wolves---blown up roster) .

disingenuous. you know you were comparing kobe and kg, the latter of whom won 33 and 32.

[Vinsanity420]

Next thread should be fun - traffic jam at #10 - The Malones, Kobe, KG, West, Oscar, and Erving. 7 guys for 1 spot.

[NO-KG-AI]

Garnett made the WCF with Gary Trent, Darrick Martin, Ervin Johnson and Ndudi Ebi!

[Baller 24]

disingenuous. you know you were comparing kobe and kg, the latter of whom won 33 and 32.

Ya, I'm measuring the accuracy of their supporting casts.

[Dr Positivity]

Next thread should be fun - traffic jam at #10 - The Malones, Kobe, KG, West, Oscar, and Erving. 7 guys for 1 spot.

Kobe shall win

**** gets real after that though