RealGM Top 100 List #10

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#41 » by ElGee » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:57 pm

The 96 Blazers-Jazz series was on NBATV this week. I tuned in with 6 minutes left in the 4th and again, saw Karl Malone draining J's. The Blazer broadcasters were marveling at him, saying stuff like "that guy is an assassin" and "what do you expect?" Again, I was impressed and came away thinking so much of this guys reputation is retroactive. If people just re-watched so many of his big games and used balance not to focus on his mistakes...

Here are the final 6 of regulation and 5 minutes of OT of any play with Stockton or Malone (one of Stockton's more active games IMO):

96 Blazers Jazz G3 last 6 minutes:

-Malone hits a 22-footer iso in Sabonis' face. 70-68 w 6:13 left.
-Next trip they go to Malone, double comes (OC) leading to an open 3 – it's missed, but Carr gets an open layup on the Oreb because of the scrambling defense from the double. 70-70.
-Stockton fouls Strickland (no penalty)
-Strickland misses on Stockton (double comes) and they get a putback off it. 72-70 Por.
-Stockton and Malone PnR for a 16-footer. Swish, Malone ties at 72 (broadcaster says he is playing like MVP of league, and “he scares you to death.”)
-PnR again, Malone blocked (claimed foul). Jazz keep pos,
-Malone comes over on help on D and changes McKie's shot (airball), Jazz bound.
-Stockton PnR sets up a Hornacek J. 77-75 2:45 left Jazz lead.
-Strickland scores over Stockton from the foul line. 77-77
-Stockton PNR with Malone who swishes a 21-footer. 79-77 Jazz.
-Malone great pass (ast) to cutting Carr off PnR action for a layup. 81-79 Jazz. 1:32 left
-Strickland leaner over Stockton at other end. 81 all.
-PnR opens up Malone drive for a foul. Misses both FT's and frustrate fouls Sabonis (penalty)
-Down 83-81, Malone cans 18-footer off Stock PnR to tie it at 83 with 21.8 left.
-5 seconds left, Stock feeds Antoine Carr who misses a double teamed shot. OT


OT
-Stock (OC) PnR actoin sets up Benoit baseline J. Jazz up 85-84.
-Stock drive sets up open Horny 3 (miss)
-Stock (OC) PnR, Malone finally misses deep J.
-Malone iso, doubled (OC) sets up Carr who misses deep J.
-TOV by Jazz – Stock trying to slip it to Malone. No idea who they credited this to.
-Stock fouled by Strickland on leaner (looked clean block) for 2 Fts. 89-87.
-Malone fouled off PnR action on headfake. Makes both 91-89 Por 1:12 left.
-Stock drive-kick to Benoit, who hits 17-footer (91 all).
-Buck Williams Oreb and follow over Malone 93-91.
-Stock misses J over Strickland with 6 seconds left off dribble.


So you watch the game and basically marvel at how much Malone does down the stretch. And yet he only had a few key possessions in overtime. Why? It wasn't because of shrinking or shying away. Sometimes, Stock just didn't go to him. There are only a handful of possessions in an overtime, and as it were Malone played a role in 3. The last few possessions Portland pinned in on him and Stockton took the other options...the point here is that hyper-criticizing big men for lack of shot attempts down the stretch misses the mark when they don't have the ball. It happens to them all. WHich leas us to...

So that leaves Kobe, West, KG, Erving, Karl. I can't bring myself to vote Karl here with his playoff hiccups. 1990 and 1995 Game 5s against Phoenix and Houston he basically stops shoot as his team blows a 4th quarter lead in the last 5 minutes and KJ and Hakeem outplay him. 1996 he misses the 2 FTs and is the one guarding Kemp when he scores the winning plays. 1997 G1 he misses the 2 FTs while Jordan wins it. Karl's end to the Flu Game is a complete atrocity. Karl was fading away so much on his jumpshots that he actually faded away on a FT shot. + wild 23 footer near the end + not fouling with 13 seconds left (clearly he brainfarted because of his 5 fouls) leading to an open Longley dunk to seal it. Can't vote Karl here with those 5 brutal 4th quarter collapses on his resume.


How can you call 1996 a collapse when his 2 previous games to get them there were awesome? I agree that 1996 G7 is one of Karl's weaker big games overall, but he played 3 elimination games in the series and 2 were awesome.

How can you call 1997 G1 a failure because he missed 2 FTs??? I mean, if that's not arbitrarily placing all the emphasis on 1 possession I don't know what is. The sequence at the end of the flu game may have been bad, but are you suggesting other players don't have bad sequences down the stretch?

In general, my issue with these kinds of complaints that get so much consideration is one of logic, not analysis. Every player has failures. Every player has bad 4th quarters. Every player has bad key games. In this case, a small amount of what you allude to are reasons why Karl Malone isn't on Hakeem's or KAJ's peak...he was close, he put a lot together, but just never quite there.

That said, that doesn't, by default, demote his peak to some arbitrary level. It's like saying "I can't take Shaq because he can't make free throws." It's really a deviation from holistic evaluation. It's just illogical. If Malone gives you 35 points 20 rebounds and high efficiency for the first 5 minutes and lays at center court for the last 5 minutes, he still gives you a certain amount of positive value for the whole game. For goodness sakes, you are pointing to 1 or 2 possessions in a 180 possession game of reasons you can't take him!

It's not different than saying "I just can't take Kobe over *pick arbitrary line* because of his suspect decision making." As if it cancels all the good stuff he does. And btw, Kobe has a lot of these kinds of "failures" throughout his career, he just happened to play on way better teams than Karl Malone ever did.

(But I have Kobe in the Dr. J/KG cluster so... :shrug:)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#42 » by Snakebites » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:21 pm

Easiest vote in some time. I view it as a cleanup round of sorts, as the two guys who have been waiting in line to be voted in/nominated (IMO one of them far too long) finally get their due credit.

Vote: Kobe
Nominate: David Robinson
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#43 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:40 pm

ElGee wrote:My general feeling on Malone recently has been that if he was on a better team or they ended the season after the Conference Finals (think non-merged leagues) that Malone would be in everyone's top-10. All the narrative driven nonsense wouldn't exist, but his Losing Bias of forgotten great performances would go out the window, and when someone wins people tend to explain away bad performances instead of focusing on them.

I don't quite get this. "If he was on a better team" and "if they ended the season after the conference finals", is a rather speculative way of viewing things.

I mean he had a Top 5 PG all-time next to him for almost all of his career. Would Malone have been as effective scoring-wise with a lesser PG to get him good looks???? See how specualtion can go both ways? And even if the season ended after the WCF, Kobe would still win out since he has 7 WCF titles, including 3 in just the last 4 years.

The main case for Malone IS longevity, and I will remind people of how large of an edge he has there in the next post.

Then he has no case over Kobe, since Bryant has both great regular seaosn AND longevity of great playoff runs. While Malone has a long list of playoff shortcomings.

Kobe's playoff impact on both sides of court exceeds Malone's, and at the very least he equalled Malone in the regular season.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#44 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:45 pm

DavidStern wrote:Haha, how many Kobe's fans suddenly come from nowhere and voted.


For me it's between KG, Dr J and Malones.

Dr Mufasa,
you are talking about Karl's collapses, but lets look at some of Kobe's poor performances in elimination games:

2002 - G7 vs Kings (10/26 FG)
2003 - G6 vs Spurs (9/19 FG, 7 tov)
2004 - G5 vs Pistons (7/21 FG)
2006 - G7 vs Suns (no will to fight in 2nd half; lost 3-1 lead)
2008 - G6 vs Celtics (again no will to fight in 2nd half; 7/22 FG)
2009 - G7 vs Rockets (4/12 FG)
2010 - G7 vs Celtics (6/24 FG)
2011 - G4 vs Mavs

That's even worse than what Malone did.


1. I voted KG for the record, so if anything those stats make me more confident in my vote because it makes it look like the playoff record of KG vs Kobe was probably overblown.

2. Going through those games

02 - Kobe has a 30, 10 and 7 and his team won. Ok he took a lot of shots. But you might as well criticize half of Hakeem's 95 games if you criticize that one

03 - The Spurs win by 28 points. Low production in a blowout loss is standard

04 - 04 is definitely Kobe's worst moment, he's awful in the Finals

06 - Lakers get blown out. Kobe's 2nd half wasn't ideal, but I'm more forgiving of losing aggressive down 20-25 on the road than up 7 at home in the 4th.

08 - Another blowout, the biggest one this time. G4 is one of his lower moments, though.

09 - Blowout for the Lakers. You might as well criticize Jordan for passing a lot in the 4th game in the Det sweep in 1991

10 - I'm a huge defender of this game for Kobe. He crashed the boards like crazy, created oppurtunities for teammates, scored 10 (I think) points in the 4th and set the energy level for his team.

Overall, what I'm saying with Karl is, we're judging players here. You've got scoring ability, defensive ability, passing ability - and you've also got mental fortitude. Karl's mental castle can be breached a hell lot easier than the other guys in contention here. And that matters to me. Should "ability to rise up instead of shrink mentally" not be a HUGE part of deciding where players rank on the greatness ladder? It's why Jordan and Russell are 1 and 2. I have yet to be convinced that he didn't choke in the 4th quarters of 1990, 1995, 1996, 1997 (G1 and G5). Regardless of playing well the rest of the time - choking in the 4th quarters that decide your career's legacy hurts, man.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#45 » by lorak » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:10 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:Overall, what I'm saying with Karl is, we're judging players here. You've got scoring ability, defensive ability, passing ability - and you've also got mental fortitude. Karl's mental castle can be breached a hell lot easier than the other guys in contention here. And that matters to me. Should "ability to rise up instead of shrink mentally" not be a HUGE part of deciding where players rank on the greatness ladder? It's why Jordan and Russell are 1 and 2. I have yet to be convinced that he didn't choke in the 4th quarters of 1990, 1995, 1996, 1997 (G1 and G5). Regardless of playing well the rest of the time - choking in the 4th quarters that decide your career's legacy hurts, man.


I don't get it. Karl Malone is better/the same* as Kobe Bryant in elimination games (way better way to evaluate than focus only on one quarter, after all in playoffs EVERY possession counts) and you still chose Kobe, because of "mental edge"?! Sure, Malone had his bad games, but Kobe also. And when we look at their overall production under super-pressure (elimination games) Karl isn't worse, so no way you can use this "mental" argument.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#46 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:12 pm

drza wrote:Take Home: Let's step away from the stats for a moment and consider what that means. We know that rings and accolades are hugely impacted by the quality of a player's team (including coach, teammates, front office, etc). But in every way that has been attempted to quantify how well an individual player performs, Garnett universally measures better than Kobe. In the box scores, which are the more traditional ways that people try to characterize individual dominance, KG measured as slightly better than Kobe over the decade surrounding their primes. And in the +/- stats, which are the developing ways that we have to estimate how much an individual CONTRIBUTES to winning (letting us look at team impact, which is vital, without being completely hamstrung by teammate quality), Garnett measured as comfortably better than Bryant, by a larger margin than even the box scores would have indicated.

I'm not sure how KG had the advantage in box score stats, when Kobe had a higher RS and playoff PER. WS/48 is virtually even too. Kobe's scoring efficiency as a guard is better than KG's in the regualr season, and MUCH better in the playoffs. So it would seem that Bryant actually has the edge here, when you consider playoff performance.

Also, +/- stats are heavily dependent on team system, roster, depth, and an assortment of other factors. This stat is more about who's msot indispensible to a roster, rather than who's better. Nevermind the fact that +/- numbers are volatile, and very incomplete outside of a narrow span of years.

For example, who's to say DRob's +/- stats don't beat out KG's? DRob has a simliar cast,yet anchored better defenses, and had more RS success.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#47 » by mysticbb » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:12 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Kobe's playoff impact on both sides of court exceeds Malone's, and at the very least he equalled Malone in the regular season.


Do you honestly believe that Kobe Bryant had a bigger impact on defense than Karl Malone? Really?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#48 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:19 pm

mysticbb wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Kobe's playoff impact on both sides of court exceeds Malone's, and at the very least he equalled Malone in the regular season.


Do you honestly believe that Kobe Bryant had a bigger impact on defense than Karl Malone? Really?

In the playoffs, yes.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#49 » by mysticbb » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:21 pm

We are talking about defensive impact here? No way had Kobe Bryant a bigger impact defensively than Karl Malone, whether we are talking about playoffs or regular season.

Make whatever argument you like on offense for Bryant over Malone, but don't insult everyone here by claiming that Kobe Bryant had a bigger defensive impact than Karl Malone.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#50 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:28 pm

DavidStern wrote:
Dr Mufasa wrote:Overall, what I'm saying with Karl is, we're judging players here. You've got scoring ability, defensive ability, passing ability - and you've also got mental fortitude. Karl's mental castle can be breached a hell lot easier than the other guys in contention here. And that matters to me. Should "ability to rise up instead of shrink mentally" not be a HUGE part of deciding where players rank on the greatness ladder? It's why Jordan and Russell are 1 and 2. I have yet to be convinced that he didn't choke in the 4th quarters of 1990, 1995, 1996, 1997 (G1 and G5). Regardless of playing well the rest of the time - choking in the 4th quarters that decide your career's legacy hurts, man.


I don't get it. Karl Malone is better/the same* as Kobe Bryant in elimination games (way better way to evaluate than focus only on one quarter, after all in playoffs EVERY possession counts) and you still chose Kobe, because of "mental edge"?! Sure, Malone had his bad games, but Kobe also. And when we look at their overall production under super-pressure (elimination games) Karl isn't worse, so no way you can use this "mental" argument.

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I don't see the significance of "elimination" games anyway(such a small sample size), as opposed to overall playoff performance. I could point out Kobe's great play in "closeout" games, but that's such a small criteria to use, what would be the point.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#51 » by Bucksfans1and2 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:35 pm

V: K. Malone
N: D-Rob
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#52 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:36 pm

mysticbb wrote:We are talking about defensive impact here? No way had Kobe Bryant a bigger impact defensively than Karl Malone, whether we are talking about playoffs or regular season.

Make whatever argument you like on offense for Bryant over Malone, but don't insult everyone here by claiming that Kobe Bryant had a bigger defensive impact than Karl Malone.

You only have to go back to 2010 to see how Kobe's defense impact was big. In the OKC series he switched onto Westbrook, and that saved a 1st round upset. In the FInals he did a great job on Rondo, who was killing the EC. Don't beleive me, just ask the Celtic's coach...“He also knew that we had foul problems on the floor, and he was aggressive,” Rivers said. “Listen, Kobe didn’t win the game with his offense. Kobe won the game today with his defense. I thought defensively, he was absolutely phenomenal. He was everywhere.
“He was trapping; he was helping off (Rajon) Rondo all night. Trapped the post, blocked shots. I mean, he just had a great floor game to me — more than just scoring.”


Kobe has been doing this his whole career in the playoffs. Malone didn't.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#53 » by FJS » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:36 pm

Vote: Karl Malone

The only fault in his career it's not to win a ring, altough he played 3 finals.
He is close to KAJ in individual accolades (less mvp, of course) but in longetivity.
Incredible offense, great deffense.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#54 » by lorak » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:43 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
DavidStern wrote:
Dr Mufasa wrote:Overall, what I'm saying with Karl is, we're judging players here. You've got scoring ability, defensive ability, passing ability - and you've also got mental fortitude. Karl's mental castle can be breached a hell lot easier than the other guys in contention here. And that matters to me. Should "ability to rise up instead of shrink mentally" not be a HUGE part of deciding where players rank on the greatness ladder? It's why Jordan and Russell are 1 and 2. I have yet to be convinced that he didn't choke in the 4th quarters of 1990, 1995, 1996, 1997 (G1 and G5). Regardless of playing well the rest of the time - choking in the 4th quarters that decide your career's legacy hurts, man.


I don't get it. Karl Malone is better/the same* as Kobe Bryant in elimination games (way better way to evaluate than focus only on one quarter, after all in playoffs EVERY possession counts) and you still chose Kobe, because of "mental edge"?! Sure, Malone had his bad games, but Kobe also. And when we look at their overall production under super-pressure (elimination games) Karl isn't worse, so no way you can use this "mental" argument.

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I don't see the significance of "elimination" games anyway(such a small sample size), as opposed to overall playoff performance.


Good. Kobe's playoffs box score production isn't better than Malone's (especially if we compare them after the same amount of seasons), add to that defense, where Karl was better and overall Malone is slightly better playoff performer. Add his longevity and he definitely should be above Kobe.

BTW,
I guess some voters will vote Kobe, but others - majority - KG or Malone and Kobe might won while most of the voters wouldn't think he deserved that spot, but they will split they votes between KG and KM...
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#55 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:50 pm

DavidStern wrote:Good. Kobe's playoffs box score production isn't better than Malone's (especially if we compare them after the same amount of seasons), add to that defense, where Karl was better and overall Malone is slightly better playoff performer. Add his longevity and he definitely should be above Kobe.

in what alternate reality is Malone a better playoff performer??? :lol:

Kobe's playoff series record is 28-7, while Malone's is 16-16. Malone's TS% drops 5 points in the playoffs, and he has been upset numerous times.

And I'm really interested to hear how Malone's defense was better than Kobe's in the playoffs. Really interested.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#56 » by ElGee » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:53 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:
DavidStern wrote:Haha, how many Kobe's fans suddenly come from nowhere and voted.


For me it's between KG, Dr J and Malones.

Dr Mufasa,
you are talking about Karl's collapses, but lets look at some of Kobe's poor performances in elimination games:

2002 - G7 vs Kings (10/26 FG)
2003 - G6 vs Spurs (9/19 FG, 7 tov)
2004 - G5 vs Pistons (7/21 FG)
2006 - G7 vs Suns (no will to fight in 2nd half; lost 3-1 lead)
2008 - G6 vs Celtics (again no will to fight in 2nd half; 7/22 FG)
2009 - G7 vs Rockets (4/12 FG)
2010 - G7 vs Celtics (6/24 FG)
2011 - G4 vs Mavs

That's even worse than what Malone did.


1. I voted KG for the record, so if anything those stats make me more confident in my vote because it makes it look like the playoff record of KG vs Kobe was probably overblown.

2. Going through those games

02 - Kobe has a 30, 10 and 7 and his team won. Ok he took a lot of shots. But you might as well criticize half of Hakeem's 95 games if you criticize that one

03 - The Spurs win by 28 points. Low production in a blowout loss is standard

04 - 04 is definitely Kobe's worst moment, he's awful in the Finals

06 - Lakers get blown out. Kobe's 2nd half wasn't ideal, but I'm more forgiving of losing aggressive down 20-25 on the road than up 7 at home in the 4th.

08 - Another blowout, the biggest one this time. G4 is one of his lower moments, though.

09 - Blowout for the Lakers. You might as well criticize Jordan for passing a lot in the 4th game in the Det sweep in 1991

10 - I'm a huge defender of this game for Kobe. He crashed the boards like crazy, created oppurtunities for teammates, scored 10 (I think) points in the 4th and set the energy level for his team.

Overall, what I'm saying with Karl is, we're judging players here. You've got scoring ability, defensive ability, passing ability - and you've also got mental fortitude. Karl's mental castle can be breached a hell lot easier than the other guys in contention here. And that matters to me. Should "ability to rise up instead of shrink mentally" not be a HUGE part of deciding where players rank on the greatness ladder? It's why Jordan and Russell are 1 and 2. I have yet to be convinced that he didn't choke in the 4th quarters of 1990, 1995, 1996, 1997 (G1 and G5). Regardless of playing well the rest of the time - choking in the 4th quarters that decide your career's legacy hurts, man.



Apologies for double-quoting before you responded to my first response, but...you need to re-watch 2006 for Kobe Bryant if you are big on some ethereal mental element. First of all, it was 60-45 at halftime. Not 20-25 points. Secondly, his play in that second half was weird, whether you call it quitting or not. I don't care. I do care that in the second half he was 0-3, attempted to 2 quick 3's, 2 attempts to drive the whole half, 2 possessions in which he went to the post, and 27 possessions in which he just stood around ~25 feet or more from the hoop, including dribbling to a given spot or catching and immediately giving it up.

I've never seen him play that before or since. I've never seen any star do that. (Even in G6 v Boston he took 13 deep jumpers.)

2009 G7 v Houston was not a great game. (Not a bad one either.) Now, this is the crux of the issue with people who nitpick these intangible elements with other players. Kobe played on a team that was waaaaay better than the Houston team, so he didn't have to have a great game. But let's not pretend that this was a better game than 95% of Malone's big games just because his team won or that he didn't (correctly) force offense.

2010 G7 This is NOT a good game. You can defend it because of rebounding and creation, but that doesn't offset the absolutely bonkers first half, when Kobe was air-balling double-teamed shots off the side of the board. 4-12 is way better than 6-24. He hit one 4th quarter jumper, got fouled on a 3 (debatably), fouled shooting one other time I believe and then had 4 FTs on intentionals, no? And this is exactly where Winning/Losing Bias comes. LA wins, you focus on the good stuff Kobe does. Utah loses and you focus on the bad stuff Malone does.

Furthermore, you talk about 4th quarter play, but you don't mention that in the 2010 Finals, Kobe shot 27.5% in the 4th (48.3% TS) and averaged just 1.4 assists. You don't mention that in the 08-10 Finals, Kobe's 4th quarters per 36 numbers are just 23.6/3.2/2.3 on 48.2% TS (33.9% FG).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#57 » by lorak » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:57 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
DavidStern wrote:Good. Kobe's playoffs box score production isn't better than Malone's (especially if we compare them after the same amount of seasons), add to that defense, where Karl was better and overall Malone is slightly better playoff performer. Add his longevity and he definitely should be above Kobe.

in what alternate reality is Malone a better playoff performer??? :lol:


No alternate, just reality.

Here's box score production after the same amount of seasons, both are on very similar level:
http://bkref.com/tiny/6ODrk

Code: Select all

        KB   KM
WS/48   0.158   0.155
PER      22.3   22.4


But box score don't include most of the defense, and when we add defense Malone is better.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#58 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:10 pm

DavidStern wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
DavidStern wrote:Good. Kobe's playoffs box score production isn't better than Malone's (especially if we compare them after the same amount of seasons), add to that defense, where Karl was better and overall Malone is slightly better playoff performer. Add his longevity and he definitely should be above Kobe.

in what alternate reality is Malone a better playoff performer??? :lol:


No alternate, just reality.

Here's box score production after the same amount of seasons, both are on very similar level:
http://bkref.com/tiny/6ODrk

Code: Select all

        KB   KM
WS/48   0.158   0.155
PER      22.3   22.4


But box score don't include most of the defense, and when we add defense Malone is better.


Dude, what are you trying to pull. Kobe was 18 when he came into the league, and Malone was 23.

For their careers in the playoffs...

KB = 0.158 WS/48
KM = 0.140 WS/48

KB = 22.3 PER
KM = 21.1 PER

And honestly, box score stats shouldn't be the sole factor in who's better anyway.
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Vinsanity420
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#59 » by Vinsanity420 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:12 pm

I don't have too much time to contribute to this thread... should find more time after my tuesday midterm is over.

Vote: Karl Malone
Nominate: David Robinson
Laimbeer wrote:Rule for life - if a player comparison was ridiculous 24 hours ago, it's probably still ridiculous.


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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#60 » by lorak » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:25 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
DavidStern wrote:
No alternate, just reality.

Here's box score production after the same amount of seasons, both are on very similar level:
http://bkref.com/tiny/6ODrk

Code: Select all

        KB   KM
WS/48   0.158   0.155
PER      22.3   22.4


But box score don't include most of the defense, and when we add defense Malone is better.


Dude, what are you trying to pull. Kobe was 18 when he came into the league, and Malone was 23.



Fine, so lets compare 13 best playoffs seasons (yeah, 13, that's how long Malone was so good)

Malone 1988-2000
22.8 PER, 0.161 WS/48

Kobe 1998-2011
22.4 PER, 0.160 WS/48


But you still may say Kobe was too young, so lets compare only 10 seasons (but that's not fair, beacuse one of Malone's advantages above Bryant is longevity on very high level):

KB 2001-2011
23.3 PER, 0.174 WS/48

KM
1991-2000
23.4 PER, 0.169 WS/48

So no matter how we look at that their box score production in playoffs is similar. But Malone also had advantage on defensive end AND longevity.

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