RealGM Top 100 List #10

[SDChargers#1]

Will try to get in on the debate later today.

Vote: Kobe
Nomination: Robinson

[therealbig3]

Vote: Kobe
Nomination: Wade

[Gongxi]

The only thing I can think of is that Garnett took the Wolves the farthest they've ever been in the playoffs and is by far the best player that franchise has ever had. That's gotta count for something, right JB? Whereas Kobe...well, other Laker players have won 5 rings, so that's just par for the course. Ho hum.

post of the year.

I hope you get the joke. I doubt it, though, since you think I'm a "Kobe hater".

[Baller 24]

Half of Dr. J's era was playing in the NBA. The best player during that time was playing for the Bucks. Playing in a split league definitely plays a role in how I view those ABA years.

Yes, but like I stated in terms of production, they're neck and neck. And if that's your viewpoint, then I don't know what to say anymore. You've already dismantled all statistics that favor any of the other candidate so there's no point in arguing here.

KAJ's early 70's years have already been put into context, it has already been said that that was a weak NBA era. Just like Russ/Wilt's 8 team leagues were knocked too. Dr. J is not a unique case. And I'm not saying we can't look at his years in the ABA. I'm just saying we can't directly translate them the same way we can with post-merger years. It was a split talent pool.

How come despite his statistical drop due to his knee surgeries his impact still says identical to those compared to his ABA years? it's clearly evident that he's got that kind of impact in every single season he's been apart of the NBA. It's hard to just throw a players dominance out the window, considering despite the split we're still considering a key criteria of "dominance relative to their eras" .

Your words here:

I really, don't want to get into another long drawn debate on it's merits(and I'm guessing other voters would be bored with it). Some people like PER & WS, others like APm, others like EFF, etc..At the end of the day, I just don't think any stat accurately reflects a player's overall impact. it's much better to take all things into account.

Doesn't this reflect the impact of Julius Erving in the NBA? And while we're at that point, we know that every single stat has its flaws, it can't truly accurately describe how an individual plays a game of basketball, but compared to the other candidates why is it that every metric is also making the candidates look slightly superior or even on par compared to Bryant, when you're stating the complete opposite?

Why should statistical evidence be discounted and dismantled if it isn't making your key choice look the most superior? That's what I have a tough time understanding, not just for this project, but for years about this situation.

EDIT:
Bryant likely looks like he's winning this one, but I'm going to slide with Julius Erving, nomination comes down to Wade for me, and IMO pretty easily. LeBron's up there, obviously rightfully so, but these past couple of years there's been a small difference between the two, where as I think Wade's dominant and historical run in '06 ties him a bit closer to him in an all-time sense..

Vote: Julius Erving

Just think at peak form some of those ABA seasons relative to his competition and how easily he dominated it show a significant factor. His impact translated fantastically into the NBA, and while many compare his peak to LeBron's current run, it's obvious that some of those seasons are on par at GOAT level, it's just hard for me to pass up, especially when he did it 4 seasons in a row in with the Nets, with little support, and dominant all-around runs in the playoffs.

Nominate: D-Wade

[ElGee]

The In/Out runs for the guys on our radar:
LeBron 2008+10 (13g) 12.5 to 4.1
Garnett 2006-07 (12g) 11.6 to -1.9
West 1971 (13g) 10.9 to 4.5
Robinson 1992 (14g) 8 to 4.7
Barkley 1994 (17g) 7.8 to 6.5
Kobe 2004 (17g) 7.2 to 5.4
West 1968 (31g) 6.4 to 7.8
Wade 2005-06 (12g) 6.2 to 5.7
Garnett 2009 (25g) 5.4 to 9.2
Barkley 1996 (11g) 4.9 to 1
West 1969 (21g) 4.9 to 5.4
Moses 1978 (25g) 4.8 to -2.7
Garnett 2010 (13g) 4.6 to 4.4
Kobe 2000 (16g) 4.4 to 9.4
Wade 2004 (21g) 4 to 1.5
Barkley 1997 (29g) 3.4 to 5.7
Wade 2008 (31g) 3.1 to -7.5
Barkley 1987 (14g) 2.9 to 0.3
Moses 1984 (11g) 2.9 to 2.6
Kobe 2005 (16g) 2.8 to -2.4
Kobe 2006-07 (7g) 2.5 to 1.3
Kobe 2001 (14g) 1.8 to 3.7
Garnett 2008 (11g) 1.7 to 10.5
Wade 2007 (31g) 1.5 to -0.4
Barkley 1991 (15g) 1.2 to 0
Barkley 1995 (14g) 0.1 to 3.9
Garnett 2011 (11g) 0.1 to 5.4
Kobe 2010 (9g) -0.5 to 5.1

If someone can grab the Erving /Oscar dates on the years they miss decent chunks I will add them too. Dirk, Karl Malone, **** you for never missed games.

[therealbig3]

Here's an unofficial count so far to make it easier later on, might have missed some people.

Vote:

Kobe-11 (penbeast0, An Unbiased Fan, Black Feet, Jay From LA, JordansBulls, Snakebites, Laimbeer, fatal9, pancakes3, SDChargers#1, therealbig3)

K. Malone-6 (ElGee, Bucksfans1and2, FJS, Vinsanity420, mysticbb, Gongxi)

Garnett-4 (Dr Mufasa, drza, Doctor MJ, Fencer reregistered)

Dr. J-2 (shawngoat23, Baller 24)

DavidStern, I don't know if you officially voted or not, you seem to be backing K. Malone, but I don't know for sure.

Nominations:

Robinson-15 (penbeast0, An Unbiased Fan, Black Feet, Gongxi, shawngoat23, Fencer reregistered, Jay From LA, drza, Snakebites, Bucksfans1and2, FJS, Vinsanity420, mysticbb, Doctor MJ, SDChargers#1)

Wade-4 (Dr Mufasa, fatal9, therealbig3, Baller 24)

Drexler-1 (JordansBulls)

Havlicek-1 (pancakes3)

Isiah-1 (Laimbeer)

ElGee, I don't know if you gave a nomination yet or not.

Unless I missed someone completely, I'm pretty sure this is the updated count for votes and nominations. Looks like Robinson and Kobe are kind of running away with it.

[Baller 24]

Yeah most likely a blow-out, there's going to be a small point-guard cluster as we come up...Nash, Stockton, Payton, Isiah, Fraizer, & Kidd.

[therealbig3]

I'm surprised there were no votes for Moses, West, or Oscar at #10...the majority of people that I know have Kobe at 10, but those 3 players and Dr. J (who only got 2 votes) are usually the most likely candidates selected over him.

Interesting how opinions of KG and Malone have changed big time over the years.

[TMACFORMVP]

I agree with the majority. Hopefully, I'll be more part of the discussion in the next thread.

Vote: Kobe Bryant
Nominate: David Robinson

[An Unbiased Fan]

Yes, but like I stated in terms of production, they're neck and neck. And if that's your viewpoint, then I don't know what to say anymore. You've already dismantled all statistics that favor any of the other candidate so there's no point in arguing here.

The level of talent is still a factor in my overall impressions of that ABA era. Putting those year into context isn't what I call "dismantling". Dr. J was a great player, but those were unique circumstances.

How come despite his statistical drop due to his knee surgeries his impact still says identical to those compared to his ABA years? it's clearly evident that he's got that kind of impact in every single season he's been apart of the NBA. It's hard to just throw a players dominance out the window, considering despite the split we're still considering a key criteria of "dominance relative to their eras" .

I'm not throwing his ABa years out the window, but I also don't view them the same as I do post-merger seasons.

Also, it's gets tricky to measure Dr. J's era dominance when half the era's talent plays in a different league.

Doesn't this reflect the impact of Julius Erving in the NBA? And while we're at that point, we know that every single stat has its flaws, it can't truly accurately describe how an individual plays a game of basketball, but compared to the other candidates why is it that every metric is also making the candidates look slightly superior or even on par compared to Bryant, when you're stating the complete opposite?

Why should statistical evidence be discounted and dismantled if it isn't making your key choice look the most superior? That's what I have a tough time understanding, not just for this project, but for years about this situation.

I'm not sure what metrics you're reffering to. Kobe's PER & WS/48 are better than Malone & KG's when you factor in RS & PS. I just don't view "advanced" stats as major way to rank players, and that's been my postion since I came to RealGM. I also used the Bird vs Dirk example to illustrate the dangers of relying on them as a sole determinent. I don't see where I have "discounted" any stat other than APM. And it's no secret that I feel +/- numbers are unrealiable.

[RoyceDa59]

Vote: Kobe
Nominate: David Robinson

[penbeast0]

My results differ a bit for anyone that wants to go back and check . . .

Kobe (penbeast0, An Unbiased Fan, Black Feet, Gongxi, JayfromLA, JordansBulls, Snakebites, fatal9, pancakes3, SDChargers#1, therealbig3, TMACFORMVP, RoyceDa)
KG (Dr Mufasa, drza, Laimbeer, Doctor MJ)
Erving (shawngoat23, Baller24)
Karl Malone (Bucksfans1and2, FJS, Vinsanity420, mysticbb)

Nominate

DRob (penbeast0, An Unbiased Fan, Black Feet, shawgoat23, Fencer reregistered, JayfromLA, drza, Snakebites, Bucksfans1and2, FJS, Vinsanity420, mysticbb, Doctor MJ, SDChargers#1, TMACFORMVP, RoyceDA)
Wade (Dr Mufasa, Baller 24, fatal9, therealbig3)
Drexler (Clyde Drexler)
Isiah (Laimbeer)
Havlicek (pancakes3)

[therealbig3]

My results differ a bit for anyone that wants to go back and check . . .

Kobe (penbeast0, An Unbiased Fan, Black Feet, Gongxi, JayfromLA, JordansBulls, Snakebites, fatal9, pancakes3, SDChargers#1, therealbig3, TMACFORMVP, RoyceDa)
KG (Dr Mufasa, drza, Laimbeer, Doctor MJ)
Erving (shawngoat23, Baller24)
Karl Malone (Bucksfans1and2, FJS, Vinsanity420, mysticbb)

Nominate

DRob (penbeast0, An Unbiased Fan, Black Feet, shawgoat23, Fencer reregistered, JayfromLA, drza, Snakebites, Bucksfans1and2, FJS, Vinsanity420, mysticbb, Doctor MJ, SDChargers#1, TMACFORMVP, RoyceDA)
Wade (Dr Mufasa, Baller 24, fatal9, therealbig3)
Drexler (Clyde Drexler)
Isiah (Laimbeer)
Havlicek (pancakes3)

I think the nominations are good, except you missed Gongxi's nomination for Robinson.

In terms of the voting, Laimbeer voted for Kobe, not KG, and Gongxi voted for Malone, not Kobe. ElGee didn't give an official vote, but the only person he's talked about the entire thread has been Malone. Fencer reregistered also voted for KG.

[rrravenred]

IF there's still time for my vote (apologies for not participating more fulsomely to date)...

Kobe / Erving / Malone / KG is pretty much my slate for this vote. All have dings on their resume (with the possible exception of KG), three of which are big offensive producers, the other of whom is primarily a defensive maven.

Kobe - Volume, baby, volume. As AUF has pointed out once or twice, Kobe is an offensive workhorse (at a generally average or slighly better efficiency). The knock(s) I'd have on his game is his offensive decision-making and (as he's aged) an unwillingness to go inside and to sit back for the fancy (and occasionally effective) jumper. Defensively, at peak he's one of the better one-on-one performers we've seen. However, that peak lasted four or five years, and he's been coasting on it ever since, and he's never been my role model for a great help defender. A technically good passer (though I've never considered him a really creative assist man) and just all-around has a sound game.

Doctor J - possibly the most revolutionary of the quartet. Athletic marvel (as an aside, I was watching the 83 finals recently and he did a lovely one-step slam rising up, up, up... at 33), fundamentally sound and a great all-around contributor to every aspect of the court, offensive and defensive. His 15-and-out game is slightly shaky, but he was still enough of a threat to open up his superbly effective driving game. ABA muddies the waters considerably, as does the lessened impact over the latter part of his career.

Malone - Consistent, multifaceted and quite a bit nasty, Malone was a load for the opposition, and consistently produced at a high level, pretty much forever (he misssed 9 RS games total over the first SIXTEEN years of his career). A strong rebounder and competent post defender and passer, he redefined the power-forward and put up very good to sometimes great numbers over a long period of time. A drop-off in the playoffs and getting punk'd by Jordan are the only really big blemishes on his career (along with a somewhat iffy off-court life).

KG - on my all-time defensive team. A 7-foot terrier with length, speed, strength, hops and timing, he is perhaps the best team player of the four, augmented by his space-the-floor range and excellent high-post game. His low-post game isn't excellent, however, and his offensive game (even when you include his passing) is a bit inefficient. He makes up for this by being a good-to-genuinely-=great rebounder.

For me, it comes down to the two great team-changers here, which are Erving and Garnett. In this, I think I have to plump for Erving, on the grounds of his fabulous peak production.

Nomination: D-Rob. You can focus on the weaknesses, but he has monstrous strengths which need to be recognised.

[penbeast0]

Thanks but was hoping for a 3rd party checker unless you want to give me page numbers so I can check it myself, otherwise I'll only check it if it's close enough to matter.

[Laimbeer]

I'm surprised there were no votes for Moses, West, or Oscar at #10...the majority of people that I know have Kobe at 10, but those 3 players and Dr. J (who only got 2 votes) are usually the most likely candidates selected over him.

Interesting how opinions of KG and Malone have changed big time over the years.

I'm really wondering if we're goin to see too much bias toward the more modern guys (I'm guilty too) - West, Oscar, Baylor, Pettit, etc look like they're headed to some pretty low rankings.

[Baller 24]

I'm really wondering if we're goin to see too much bias toward the more modern guys (I'm guilty too) - West, Oscar, Baylor, Pettit, etc look like they're headed to some pretty low rankings.

Some of the guys rightfully deserve to so.

[penbeast0]

I think West and Oscar start getting some play in the next one against Erving and Garnett . . . and Pettit and Baylor start getting some traction against Wade though I would bet on Erving or Garnett and Wade winning it (possibly deservedly, I am going to have to work through them a lot more than the top 10 where I had pretty much argued it out a lot already).

[colts18]

I included longevity in that decision

The gap isn't huge. Both guys had two years before they make an All-NBA team, then Karl's 88 to 98 is 11 years. KG's 99 to 08 is 10 years. I think most of us care about the prime period here. But for the rest, the two years before that and two years after (10 and 11 for KG, not 09 and 10) are roughly similar. Karl's difference essentially comes down to 01-03, where I don't think he had the gas to made a title run anyways, and an extra prime season. So yes I'd rather have KG's entire body of work

Karl Malone might be the only guy who won an MVP in his non-prime according to you. Last time I checked, KG was never close to winning an MVP in his non-prime years.

[Laimbeer]

I think West and Oscar start getting some play in the next one against Erving and Garnett . . . and Pettit and Baylor start getting some traction against Wade though I would bet on Erving or Garnett and Wade winning it (possibly deservedly, I am going to have to work through them a lot more than the top 10 where I had pretty much argued it out a lot already).

Maybe, but I think anybody from the 60s or 70s is in for a pretty good fall, looking at some rankings from last time around.

11) West
12)Oscar
15)Havlicek
16)Pettit

Not only have the last two not been nominated, they've gotten a grand total of about one vote as I recall. My guess is they're dropping ten spots or better. What has happened in the past three years that changes NBA history that much?