Why does Chris Paul get ranked historically

[giordunk]

While Deron Williams doesn't? Paul and Williams are both rookies I've followed since the beginning of their career. Paul had a better rookie season but I honestly don't think Paul has ever been that much better than Deron Williams, yet people are willing to compare him with the All-Time greats like Magic, Isiah, Stockton and Oscar, but I've never seen anyone put Deron Williams in that conversation.

To me Chris Paul has only had one great season and that was in 07-08 when he led his team to 56 wins. After that he's pretty much played to 80-90% of his potential and has never had another 50 win season. Williams has had 3 50 win seasons. Chris Paul has played 25 less games in his career and about half as many playoff games as Deron Williams.

I'm not trying to plug D-Will into All-Time great conversation but I just don't understand how Chris Paul gets to be mentioned in those lists when he hasn't done much to differentiate himself from Williams.

[NO-KG-AI]

He assists at better rates with less turnovers
he rebounds better
he scores more, and does it on better efficiency
he plays first team defense
his teammates and coaches aren't as good
His teams actually had legitimate chances to knock out contenders when they played.

Other than that, they're pretty much the same. Your problem is, you can't see the forest from the trees, and you say "omg 50 wins" like it's all on one guy.

The Jazz, for a few years, had a guy on the bench (Millsap) who approaches the productivity of the best player Paul ever played with. Let that sink in.

[ahonui06]

Chris Paul and Deron Williams both shouldn't be mentioned in any all-time great conversations. They haven't proven much yet.

[Copperhead]

Well OP why don't you start some Deron Williams vs. "all time great" threads? Get the ball rollin' guy! I've asked the question before on these forums. If Deron is 'better' than Chris Paul, why don't I see as many threads comparing Deron to all time greats? The media has been comparing Paul to Isiah pretty much since he came into the league. As a team, Deron's teams have gone a bit further but individually, Paul has done some things that Deron hasn't. Has Deron ever even been a serious MVP candidate? Paul was the first point guard since Tim Hardaway to avg 20ppg and 10asts in 15 years. Deron just did that for the first time last season. Has Deron ever lead the league in any stat at his position? If I'm correct, Paul is also the only player in league history to lead the league in steals and assists in consecutive seasons.

Also, I think Chris Paul gets ranked historically against all time greats.... statistically. Not so much as accomplishments but statistically.

[Bobbcats]

save time from the other similar thread:

I've always found it bizarre that none of Deron's supposed advantages have ever shown up in the stat sheet. I know stats aren't everything but he has never been remotely near CP in PER or any advanced stat, has had consistently horrible defensive and average overall +/- , and outside of the stat sheet he probably doesn't make up for it berating his rookie and driving off his coach. In the vaunted playoff run of his he was outplayed by the opposing point guard in both series that they won and got all the credit while that supposed playoff loser Boozer dominated.

Don't get me wrong he's good but its boggling how many people consider him as good or better when honestly most people haven't watched either of these guys play much anyways.

He hasn't done much to show that he's better than Deron? It's true he doesn't have any titles yet, but besides that he has done everything a player can. IMO the only thing that would satisfy you people is him growing three inches so he can be like Deron and hypothetically dominate.

[Copperhead]

This article for example is just one of many where Paul gets compared 'statistically' to all time greats. No one said he's better than these all time greats but statistically he compares.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-ber ... 22627.html

And look at the point guard PER comparison in this article. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know PER isn't the best but why hasn't Deron ever had a PER of over 23?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... iem-090311

Again, he's been compared statistically but not accomplishment wise.

[BattleTested]

Paul at his best is better than Williams at his best but D-Will has had the better career.

[picc]

He is, or was, just flat out better in nearly every way. Its close....while at the same time, its not close.

[giordunk]

He assists at better rates with less turnovers
he rebounds better
he scores more, and does it on better efficiency
he plays first team defense
his teammates and coaches aren't as good
His teams actually had legitimate chances to knock out contenders when they played.

Other than that, they're pretty much the same. Your problem is, you can't see the forest from the trees, and you say "omg 50 wins" like it's all on one guy.

The Jazz, for a few years, had a guy on the bench (Millsap) who approaches the productivity of the best player Paul ever played with. Let that sink in.

The first 3 things are arguable. Statistically Paul has an edge in those things you listed but the difference isn't big enough for one to be considered one of the NBA's best of all time while the other is more of a forgettable point guard along the lines of Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson.

'Legitimate chance' is a pretty stupid word. The 4 times Deron Williams has been in the playoffs, 3 times he was eliminated by the eventual champions, and the other time is when the Lakers beat them and then lost to the Celtics.

The Hornets have been in the playoffs 3 times. They've beaten the Mavericks (far from a contender at the time), then lost to the Spurs in 5 (I'll give you contender on this one). Hornets also lost to the Nuggets in 5 who were kind of a contender, and the Hornets weren't even close to beating the Lakers in their losses this post season. I'm not saying that D-Will and the Jazz have done a lot better in the playoffs, but I just don't agree with your assessment.

LeBron (if you forget about this year's playoffs) is better than Carmelo or Durant 90 days out of 100 days. He's clearly better than those guys and I can agree with him being in All-Time great discussion. To me, Paul is the best point guard in the NBA maybe 30-40 days out of 100 days. The rest of the days are split between Deron Williams and Derrick Rose.

[NO-KG-AI]

How are any of the first 3 things arguable? Lmao. It's like saying Kareem having the most points all time is arguable, it's an undeniable fact.

I want to see you "argue" Paul not having more assists and less turnovers, not being a more efficient and higher volume scorer, or not being a better rebounder. For the record, Deron Williams has never had double digit rebounds.

The Hornets went 7 with the Spurs, it was the Jazz that went down in 5.

Chris Paul has one bad playoff series in his career. He went 6 with the Lakers with Carl LAndry as his second best player, waxed that Mavs, and pushed the Spurs to the brink.

[Bobbcats]

Paul at his best is better than Williams at his best but D-Will has had the better career.

That would be a nice diplomatic answer but it's false. A WCF finals appearance after two rounds of average individual play trumps a Rookie of the Year? more AS and all-NBA appearances? the top 2 PG seasons by most advanced stats? the highest career playoff PER of any current player? 3 of the top 100 playoff games of all time in just 4 series?[1] A 49-win season on a team that had one other player who was in an NBA rotation a year later? Some other stars have had poor supporting casts but in Paul's best season the Hornets hardly had NBA talent.

[1]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/game_score_game_p.html

[NO-KG-AI]

Deron Williams beat the Warriors though, I mean, he didn't actually play well, but that WCF appearance is his big claim to fame. Anything Paul does doesn't stack up, because he didn't get to play GS in the second round.

Can you imagine Paul shooting 9% for 2 points and the Hornets winning a closeout game? Now THAT would set him apart.

[giordunk]

How are any of the first 3 things arguable? Lmao. It's like saying Kareem having the most points all time is arguable, it's an undeniable fact.

I want to see you "argue" Paul not having more assists and less turnovers, not being a more efficient and higher volume scorer, or not being a better rebounder. For the record, Deron Williams has never had double digit rebounds.

The Hornets went 7 with the Spurs, it was the Jazz that went down in 5.

Chris Paul has one bad playoff series in his career. He went 6 with the Lakers with Carl LAndry as his second best player, waxed that Mavs, and pushed the Spurs to the brink.

I already acknowledged the fact that Paul has an edge statistically but the edge he has is small that it should not be used as an argument to push him up to all time great discussion. His rebounding averages are better than Williams' by 1.3 rebounds. Williams has always played with better rebounders.

I overlooked his assist/turnover ratio where Paul has a bigger edge. Paul and Williams have pretty similar shooting percentages and true shooting percentages. Williams is a better 3 point shooter (more makes with similar percentages) and Paul is a better free throw shooter. Paul and Williams' scoring in the playoffs has very comparable numbers and percentages.

Both really talented players, I'm just saying he's overrated. If someone's been in the league for 6 years and has never been the hands down best player even at his own position, it's way too premature to put him in All-Time best point guard discussion.

[J~Rush]

If someone's been in the league for 6 years and has never been the hands down best player even at his own position, it's way too premature to put him in All-Time best point guard discussion.

Chris Paul has been the best PG in the league since 2008.

[NO-KG-AI]

Deron Williams hasn't shot the 3 ball better than Paul since 07-08. He's shot better from 3 two seasons, and Paul has shot better from mid range, from the line, and at the rim always.

Paul does everything at a higher rate on a team that was bottom 10 in pace, when the JAzz were top 10 every year Williams was there.

His advanced metrics like PER, APM, +/-, offensive rating, defensive rating all destroy Williams. It's not "close" at all statistically, there is no statistical argument for Deron whatsoever.

[GilmoreFan]

Career wise... if Paul breaks down (and there are some signs this could happen), Deron might have an argument on longevity. But for peak, there is no argument (unless Deron becomes a better player). That said, Deron can do some things better than Paul. The way he uses his body, especially to draw contact, is very nice. He's a little bigger and stronger than Paul... there are some situations where you could imagine Deron possibly being a better fit... but yeh, Paul is still the better player.

[giordunk]

If someone's been in the league for 6 years and has never been the hands down best player even at his own position, it's way too premature to put him in All-Time best point guard discussion.

Chris Paul has been the best PG in the league since 2008.

Chris Paul has never been the consensus best point guard in the league maybe except for his 07/08 season. Even before this season's playoffs, there were just as many people who would take Chris Paul as people who would take D-Will or Derrick Rose. I'm pretty neutral on the whole point guard race and I have flip flopped between Paul and Williams and at some points of this season, Rose, as the best point guard in the NBA.

Someone who is truly the best at his position is someone that doesn't get swayed by someone else winning the MVP award. When Dirk won MVP, Duncan was still clearly a better power forward. When Wade took home the Finals MVP, people were still firm on Kobe being the better player. When Derrick Rose won MVP, a good number of people were hopping on the Rose bandwagon.

I mean honestly if I was forced to pick between Paul and Williams, I would probably take Paul, but it's really close. I just don't see the comparisons.

[Die93]

Lol @ paul only having one good season. He was the consesnus best PG in the league 07-09 to 10' when he got injured. he had a solid season this year(dragged down by injuries to teammates) getting the team to 46 wins in a tough West and an epic postseason.
Where does he rank? IMO hes the best ever, the magnum opus of the PG position. Just needs more talent around him

[aggo]

CP3 was definitely the consensus best PG from '07-'09


and Deron didn't/couldn't do anything with AK, Okur, Boozer, Jefferson all in their primes. CP3 made his teammates godly in the regular season and playoffs. The talent around him was putrid and he still won series and still made series' competitive because of his abilities to make his teammates better.

[therealbig3]

Deron Williams hasn't shot the 3 ball better than Paul since 07-08. He's shot better from 3 two seasons, and Paul has shot better from mid range, from the line, and at the rim always.

Paul does everything at a higher rate on a team that was bottom 10 in pace, when the JAzz were top 10 every year Williams was there.

His advanced metrics like PER, APM, +/-, offensive rating, defensive rating all destroy Williams. It's not "close" at all statistically, there is no statistical argument for Deron whatsoever.

They seem pretty comparable finishing at the rim and from midrange. I'm not really looking at Williams's shooting numbers after the trade to NJ, his shot was just way off because of the wrist injury.

07: Paul-41% from 16-23 feet, 55% at the rim; Williams-48% from 16-23 feet, 56% at the rim
08: Paul-45% from 16-23 feet, 62% at the rim; Williams-46% from 16-23 feet, 62% at the rim
09: Paul-44% from 16-23 feet, 64% at the rim; Williams-46% from 16-23 feet, 60% at the rim
10: Paul-45% from 16-23 feet, 61% at the rim; Williams-43% from 16-23 feet, 61% at the rim
11: Paul-45% from 16-23 feet, 62% at the rim; Williams-45% from 16-23 feet, 62% at the rim

It's only been the last two seasons when Paul has clearly been better from 10-15 feet.

At his peak, yeah Paul was a slightly better scorer than Williams, while getting more assists. But I think Williams has caught up in the last two seasons.

I'd take Paul at his peak, I think it's a tossup now. If Paul can show that he can play like he did in the playoffs for a whole season, like he was doing in 08 and 09, then he's definitely the best PG in the league.