Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

[J-Roc]

I really enjoyed this post. I had not thought about the players playing in Europe as a sign of weakness but given what I believe (that its not a viable alternative for many) its an excellent point.

Deron Williams playing for less than 1/3 of his NBA salary in poorer facilities in Europe actually lowers his market value. What kind of message does it really send? Hey NBA owners you want to roll back salary 25% and pay me 12M instead of 16? I think that sucks..and too prove how against a salary cut to 12 M I am I'm going to go play for 4m!!! Take that!!!

I don't know. Deron Williams getting $4M in Europe means he makes $4M next season, while his owner makes nothing and even loses some.

And when Deron Williams and the NBA return, he has no worries about market value. Owners don't decide market value, GM's do. And it's been proven in pro-sports GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

[Boobs]

Just had a couple questions regarding the lockout that I didn't want to make a new thread for:

1) In terms of a full season lock out, how do salaries work? Do players simply lose that entire years worth of salary of the 11-12 season, or does it get pushed back?

2) I keep hearing about countries offering insurance, what does that mean? Barring an injury, would they provide an entire players salary? Or what is this insurance for?

3) Say the lockout ends halfway through the season, players like Deron Williams, are they eligible to come back and play? Would they just leave their Euro teams?

Thanks

[Boobs]

I really enjoyed this post. I had not thought about the players playing in Europe as a sign of weakness but given what I believe (that its not a viable alternative for many) its an excellent point.

Deron Williams playing for less than 1/3 of his NBA salary in poorer facilities in Europe actually lowers his market value. What kind of message does it really send? Hey NBA owners you want to roll back salary 25% and pay me 12M instead of 16? I think that sucks..and too prove how against a salary cut to 12 M I am I'm going to go play for 4m!!! Take that!!!

I don't know. Deron Williams getting $4M in Europe means he makes $4M next season, while his owner makes nothing and even loses some.

And when Deron Williams and the NBA return, he has no worries about market value. Owners don't decide market value, GM's do. And it's been proven in pro-sports GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Really contradicting yourself there bud. You say owners don't decide market value, GM's do. Then go on to say that GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Who do you think allows them to spend money? The owners. So really it's the owners dictating how much GM's are allowed to spend. Meaning, owners decide the market value.

It takes one stupid owner that allows a GM to drop 120 million on Rashard Lewis to bump up market value. A GM can't make a move like that without consulting and getting the go ahead from the owner, because at the end of the day it's the owners money that the GM's spending.

[Parataxis]

Just had a couple questions regarding the lockout that I didn't want to make a new thread for:

1) In terms of a full season lock out, how do salaries work? Do players simply lose that entire years worth of salary of the 11-12 season, or does it get pushed back?

2) I keep hearing about countries offering insurance, what does that mean? Barring an injury, would they provide an entire players salary? Or what is this insurance for?

3) Say the lockout ends halfway through the season, players like Deron Williams, are they eligible to come back and play? Would they just leave their Euro teams?

Thanks

1) It can be negotiated in the CBA, but generally speaking, the year (and the salary) would disappear. Expiring contracts would become expired contracts, those with two years left would become expiring, etc..

2) It's for international play. So if a player injures himself (and the NBA team drops him because he won't be able to play again) he'll still get his salary from the insurance company. If there's no injury though, they won't get any money.

3) They're required to come back and play - it's in their contracts. This is why only free-agents can sign contracts without an NBA-out clause.

[Eating a Book]

I really enjoyed this post. I had not thought about the players playing in Europe as a sign of weakness but given what I believe (that its not a viable alternative for many) its an excellent point.

Deron Williams playing for less than 1/3 of his NBA salary in poorer facilities in Europe actually lowers his market value. What kind of message does it really send? Hey NBA owners you want to roll back salary 25% and pay me 12M instead of 16? I think that sucks..and too prove how against a salary cut to 12 M I am I'm going to go play for 4m!!! Take that!!!

I don't know. Deron Williams getting $4M in Europe means he makes $4M next season, while his owner makes nothing and even loses some.

And when Deron Williams and the NBA return, he has no worries about market value. Owners don't decide market value, GM's do. And it's been proven in pro-sports GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Really contradicting yourself there bud. You say owners don't decide market value, GM's do. Then go on to say that GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Who do you think allows them to spend money? The owners. So really it's the owners dictating how much GM's are allowed to spend. Meaning, owners decide the market value.

It takes one stupid owner that allows a GM to drop 120 million on Rashard Lewis to bump up market value. A GM can't make a move like that without consulting and getting the go ahead from the owner, because at the end of the day it's the owners money that the GM's spending.

And who do you think allows the owners to HAVE money to spend? The Illuminati. And so the IMF dictates Brian Cardinal's market value.

[WhatsaTDot]

I really enjoyed this post. I had not thought about the players playing in Europe as a sign of weakness but given what I believe (that its not a viable alternative for many) its an excellent point.

Deron Williams playing for less than 1/3 of his NBA salary in poorer facilities in Europe actually lowers his market value. What kind of message does it really send? Hey NBA owners you want to roll back salary 25% and pay me 12M instead of 16? I think that sucks..and too prove how against a salary cut to 12 M I am I'm going to go play for 4m!!! Take that!!!

I don't know. Deron Williams getting $4M in Europe means he makes $4M next season, while his owner makes nothing and even loses some.

And when Deron Williams and the NBA return, he has no worries about market value. Owners don't decide market value, GM's do. And it's been proven in pro-sports GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Really contradicting yourself there bud. You say owners don't decide market value, GM's do. Then go on to say that GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Who do you think allows them to spend money? The owners. So really it's the owners dictating how much GM's are allowed to spend. Meaning, owners decide the market value.

It takes one stupid owner that allows a GM to drop 120 million on Rashard Lewis to bump up market value. A GM can't make a move like that without consulting and getting the go ahead from the owner, because at the end of the day it's the owners money that the GM's spending.

And who do you think allows the owners to HAVE money to spend? The Illuminati. And so the IMF dictates Brian Cardinal's market value.

Two weeks ago I would have asked, 'green font'? But then I met a guy who actually believes the Illuminati control the leaders of the Western world.

[J-Roc]

I really enjoyed this post. I had not thought about the players playing in Europe as a sign of weakness but given what I believe (that its not a viable alternative for many) its an excellent point.

Deron Williams playing for less than 1/3 of his NBA salary in poorer facilities in Europe actually lowers his market value. What kind of message does it really send? Hey NBA owners you want to roll back salary 25% and pay me 12M instead of 16? I think that sucks..and too prove how against a salary cut to 12 M I am I'm going to go play for 4m!!! Take that!!!

I don't know. Deron Williams getting $4M in Europe means he makes $4M next season, while his owner makes nothing and even loses some.

And when Deron Williams and the NBA return, he has no worries about market value. Owners don't decide market value, GM's do. And it's been proven in pro-sports GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Really contradicting yourself there bud. You say owners don't decide market value, GM's do. Then go on to say that GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Who do you think allows them to spend money? The owners. So really it's the owners dictating how much GM's are allowed to spend. Meaning, owners decide the market value.

It takes one stupid owner that allows a GM to drop 120 million on Rashard Lewis to bump up market value. A GM can't make a move like that without consulting and getting the go ahead from the owner, because at the end of the day it's the owners money that the GM's spending.

Fans want to believe that "the owners" give out crazy contracts. There may be some instances, but mostly it's GM's. GM's have a budget, and if they decide Rashard Lewis is worth $120M, that's what Rashard gets. He's actually a perfect example where you can't possibly believe Orlando's owner stepped in and instructed the GM to offer Rashard that kind of money. That's a GM explaining to the owner who Rashard Lewis is.

The only control owners as a whole have is the CBA they agree to. Within that framework GM's will run rampant. Check the NHL. Hard cap. Cap on the percentage of salary that can go to one player (20%). So what happens? GM's run wild and give out 10+yr deals. GM's and agents are the ones who run wild within whatever CBA is agreed upon by owners and players.

[Laowai]

While many GMs have a free rein in setting up long term deals many don't.
Perfect examples are Dallas, Portland, LAC, SAC, NYK, Carolina and I'm sure others including the Raptors.
Do I feel sorry for teams that signed huge contracts to worthless player no! But they have fostered regime of must sign at any cost and for extended years philosophy in the NBA. A perfect examples were the signings of Zack Randolph this year by Memphis and the signings of Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy last year.

The Raptors dodged a bullet not resigning Bosh for the maximum.

Hard cap constraints will be the only thing that will prevent that in the future with contracts limited and a maximum player salary 15M. I think we have seen the last of contracts like Kobes 20m and long term deals that paralyze a club like Areas etc.

This also will limit basically one star or superstar to each team which will balance out the league.
Also a obvious need to put some teams in bigger markets Memphis, Carolina, NO, SAC and after the bloom is off the rose OKC. Others on the fence would be Bucks and INDY teams should be back in Seattle, Vancouver, San Deigo, 2nd in Chicago & possibly Las Vegas and Montreal.

[Too Late Crew]

I really enjoyed this post. I had not thought about the players playing in Europe as a sign of weakness but given what I believe (that its not a viable alternative for many) its an excellent point.

Deron Williams playing for less than 1/3 of his NBA salary in poorer facilities in Europe actually lowers his market value. What kind of message does it really send? Hey NBA owners you want to roll back salary 25% and pay me 12M instead of 16? I think that sucks..and too prove how against a salary cut to 12 M I am I'm going to go play for 4m!!! Take that!!!

I don't know. Deron Williams getting $4M in Europe means he makes $4M next season, while his owner makes nothing and even loses some.

And when Deron Williams and the NBA return, he has no worries about market value. Owners don't decide market value, GM's do. And it's been proven in pro-sports GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Really contradicting yourself there bud. You say owners don't decide market value, GM's do. Then go on to say that GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Who do you think allows them to spend money? The owners. So really it's the owners dictating how much GM's are allowed to spend. Meaning, owners decide the market value.

It takes one stupid owner that allows a GM to drop 120 million on Rashard Lewis to bump up market value. A GM can't make a move like that without consulting and getting the go ahead from the owner, because at the end of the day it's the owners money that the GM's spending.

I'm not contradicting myself at all.

Within the current CBA yes the GM decides the market value. But that is key "witin the current CBA". The NBA pays the most in the entire world. The market value of a player is not only what a team will OFFER but what a player will accept. Its not just Deron Willaims value but the value of all players. The market is not just the NBA its the world.

Deron Willaims before effectively had his market value "in the world" set at 16 M. The NBA offered 16 M if a team from europe offered 8 he'd have said no. I'm worth 16 someone else will pay me 16. The NBA knows they need to pay 16 for star PGs. If they don't pay 16 they will go elsewhere.

Now they owners are defining a new CBA. They say what is the market for a star PG? What will it cost to get a star PG to come play in our pro basketball league? What kind of facilities and perks do we need to offer. Williams has now indicated that he'll play Pro Ball for 4 M a year!

So if I'm an owner forming a new CBA why would I offer Deron 16M to play in the NBA? We know he'll play for 4m. Why not offer 5 M heck offer him 8M. Deron that's DOUBLE what you'd get paid to play in Turkey wouldn't you rather get paid double and play in the US?

Even is players take a 25% pay cut just about every one of them will be far better of in all aspects of their life (social and financial) than playing overseas.

Think about it. If you run an accounting firm, you have the nicest offices, best looking secretarial staff and pay 500K a year. You tell the guy we need to trim your salary to 400K. He walks out in a huff and goes to work down the street in a crappy office with an ugly receptionist for 50 K a year doing the exact same work.

After a few months of that do you think you need to offer him 500K a year to come back? Or do you go to him and say "see what its like?" How about 250K won't life be a lot better than it is now?

[Salted Meat]

I don't know. Deron Williams getting $4M in Europe means he makes $4M next season, while his owner makes nothing and even loses some.

And when Deron Williams and the NBA return, he has no worries about market value. Owners don't decide market value, GM's do. And it's been proven in pro-sports GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Really contradicting yourself there bud. You say owners don't decide market value, GM's do. Then go on to say that GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Who do you think allows them to spend money? The owners. So really it's the owners dictating how much GM's are allowed to spend. Meaning, owners decide the market value.

It takes one stupid owner that allows a GM to drop 120 million on Rashard Lewis to bump up market value. A GM can't make a move like that without consulting and getting the go ahead from the owner, because at the end of the day it's the owners money that the GM's spending.

I'm not contradicting myself at all.

Within the current CBA yes the GM decides the market value. But that is key "witin the current CBA". The NBA pays the most in the entire world. The market value of a player is not only what a team will OFFER but what a player will accept. Its not just Deron Willaims value but the value of all players. The market is not just the NBA its the world.

Deron Willaims before effectively had his market value "in the world" set at 16 M. The NBA offered 16 M if a team from europe offered 8 he'd have said no. I'm worth 16 someone else will pay me 16. The NBA knows they need to pay 16 for star PGs. If they don't pay 16 they will go elsewhere.

Now they owners are defining a new CBA. They say what is the market for a star PG? What will it cost to get a star PG to come play in our pro basketball league? What kind of facilities and perks do we need to offer. Williams has now indicated that he'll play Pro Ball for 4 M a year!

So if I'm an owner forming a new CBA why would I offer Deron 16M to play in the NBA? We know he'll play for 4m. Why not offer 5 M heck offer him 8M. Deron that's DOUBLE what you'd get paid to play in Turkey wouldn't you rather get paid double and play in the US?

Even is players take a 25% pay cut just about every one of them will be far better of in all aspects of their life (social and financial) than playing overseas.

Think about it. If you run an accounting firm, you have the nicest offices, best looking secretarial staff and pay 500K a year. You tell the guy we need to trim your salary to 400K. He walks out in a huff and goes to work down the street in a crappy office with an ugly receptionist for 50 K a year doing the exact same work.

After a few months of that do you think you need to offer him 500K a year to come back? Or do you go to him and say "see what its like?" How about 250K won't life be a lot better than it is now?

lol, I think Boobs was replying to J-Roc...

Your point, TLC, however, is totally valid. Owners run the show. They hire the GMs, oversee their actions, and have a history of stepping in and either pushing for, or vetoing deals. In the end, it's their money on the line.

[The Duke]

TLC,

Here is the "problem" with that situation.

"In the whole, Derzon will play for 8Million because thats double the 4million he is playing fornow"

The problem there is demand... right now the demand in the NBA is ZERO... no one is a buyer... and there are only few buyers in europe.. thats the reason his salary is at 4 million.

Once the NBA opens up and the demand in the NBA returns... his salary goes up because of the options. If there are 30 teams who will offer Deron 8 million a year, dont u think that will drive his asking price up.

[J-Roc]

TLC,

Here is the "problem" with that situation.

"In the whole, Derzon will play for 8Million because thats double the 4million he is playing fornow"

The problem there is demand... right now the demand in the NBA is ZERO... no one is a buyer... and there are only few buyers in europe.. thats the reason his salary is at 4 million.

Once the NBA opens up and the demand in the NBA returns... his salary goes up because of the options. If there are 30 teams who will offer Deron 8 million a year, dont u think that will drive his asking price up.

I think I understand the way TLC is laying it out. It's not about market value after the new CBA is signed. He's talking about CBA negotiations. Owners should/could insist the max contract in the NBA is $4M/yr because apparently that's what Deron Williams is willing to accept to play ball.

[Too Late Crew]

TLC,

Here is the "problem" with that situation.

"In the whole, Derzon will play for 8Million because thats double the 4million he is playing fornow"

The problem there is demand... right now the demand in the NBA is ZERO... no one is a buyer... and there are only few buyers in europe.. thats the reason his salary is at 4 million.

Once the NBA opens up and the demand in the NBA returns... his salary goes up because of the options. If there are 30 teams who will offer Deron 8 million a year, dont u think that will drive his asking price up.

I think I understand the way TLC is laying it out. It's not about market value after the new CBA is signed. He's talking about CBA negotiations. Owners should/could insist the max contract in the NBA is $4M/yr because apparently that's what Deron Williams is willing to accept to play ball.[/quote

Exactly...

That's the way any CBA with either max salariers or salary caps work.

If the NBA opens back up and 30 teams offer Williams 8 M ..well only a few things can happen.
1. 8 M is the MAx salary and no one can offer him any more
2. 8 M is not the Max but each team has a salary cap and only teams with more than 8M room could offer him more.

We are talking about 2 different markets setting player prices. There is the WORLD market and the market within the NBA (governed by the CBA)

If more players go overseas it has even more an effect. Overseas teams simply don't have the $ or roster spots to offer near = NBA salary. So if 10 guys who now make the MLE (around 6M) in the NBA all go over and play for 1M each aren't the owners going to be able to say "well the MLE is supposed to represent the "average" salary. Why are we OFFERING and average salary of 6M when players will play for an average of 1m.

Its being revealed that there is no alternative to make $ and play basketball and make the same $ anywhere on this planet. Players don't really care what the BRI % is they care about how many $s are in their pocket.

Deron Williams might be getting 80% of the BRI for the Turkish league for all I know. Doesn't matter its still 1 10th his salary. in the NBA. If stars will play for 5M owners don't have to gi ve them more than say 30-40% of BRI for them all to be much better off than any alternative job they could get on this earth. That's why the owners are going to win.

[Patman]

I don't know. Deron Williams getting $4M in Europe means he makes $4M next season, while his owner makes nothing and even loses some.

And when Deron Williams and the NBA return, he has no worries about market value. Owners don't decide market value, GM's do. And it's been proven in pro-sports GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Owners are still making money in some way, you can be sure. You really think the owners NEED the NBA? No way. In most cases, their NBA franchise is the least profitable of all their businesses.

[Patman]

Really contradicting yourself there bud. You say owners don't decide market value, GM's do. Then go on to say that GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Who do you think allows them to spend money? The owners. So really it's the owners dictating how much GM's are allowed to spend. Meaning, owners decide the market value.

It takes one stupid owner that allows a GM to drop 120 million on Rashard Lewis to bump up market value. A GM can't make a move like that without consulting and getting the go ahead from the owner, because at the end of the day it's the owners money that the GM's spending.

Most owners want to stay out of basketball decisions. They want the accountability to fall on the GM.

[Salted Meat]

Really contradicting yourself there bud. You say owners don't decide market value, GM's do. Then go on to say that GM's will pay pretty well as much as they're allowed to.

Who do you think allows them to spend money? The owners. So really it's the owners dictating how much GM's are allowed to spend. Meaning, owners decide the market value.

It takes one stupid owner that allows a GM to drop 120 million on Rashard Lewis to bump up market value. A GM can't make a move like that without consulting and getting the go ahead from the owner, because at the end of the day it's the owners money that the GM's spending.

Most owners want to stay out of basketball decisions. They want the accountability to fall on the GM.

No they don't.

Yes, most owners want to trust their GM's to make the right moves, and a lot of owners might not be hands-on, but rest assured any decisions that directly affect the bottom line are absolutely brought to ownership/ the president...

Adding to that, all rebuilds... salary dumps... firesales... however you want to frame it, are all initiated by ownership. GM's simply do the best they can with the resources given to them. Some owners are willing to spend more than others, and give their GM's more free rein, but they definitely oversee what their employees are doing. That's just good management practice.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Exactly...

That's the way any CBA with either max salariers or salary caps work.

If the NBA opens back up and 30 teams offer Williams 8 M ..well only a few things can happen.
1. 8 M is the MAx salary and no one can offer him any more
2. 8 M is not the Max but each team has a salary cap and only teams with more than 8M room could offer him more.

We are talking about 2 different markets setting player prices. There is the WORLD market and the market within the NBA (governed by the CBA)

If more players go overseas it has even more an effect. Overseas teams simply don't have the $ or roster spots to offer near = NBA salary. So if 10 guys who now make the MLE (around 6M) in the NBA all go over and play for 1M each aren't the owners going to be able to say "well the MLE is supposed to represent the "average" salary. Why are we OFFERING and average salary of 6M when players will play for an average of 1m.

Its being revealed that there is no alternative to make $ and play basketball and make the same $ anywhere on this planet. Players don't really care what the BRI % is they care about how many $s are in their pocket.

Deron Williams might be getting 80% of the BRI for the Turkish league for all I know. Doesn't matter its still 1 10th his salary. in the NBA. If stars will play for 5M owners don't have to gi ve them more than say 30-40% of BRI for them all to be much better off than any alternative job they could get on this earth. That's why the owners are going to win.

D-Will also has an out in his contract over seas that if the NBA starts back up he can terminate it and head back. 4 million is the going rate for a guy who won't be sticking around for an undetermined amount of time with no guarantees.

So the argument becomes would players accept smaller contracts from NBA teams if they were allowed to terminate them and sign with another NBA team even in mid-season (not that the owners would ever agree to such a thing)?

[knickerbocker2k2]

http://t.co/QnUR0DM

Things are starting to heat up. I think this is the best route to avoid losing the season. This is what got the NFL owners to deal more fairly with the players.

Can you imagine a scenario where there would be no caps in terms of teams or players salaries? If the small market teams thought they had it bad now wait until you start seeing arms race between NY, Lakers, Mavs, Blazers, and all the other rich owners.

[youreachiteach]

And then, just like with all the decertification law suits, it gets thrown out of court... the players just lose even more money and more time and are in an even worse bargaining position.

The players are screwed. They are not a "weak" employee who needs protecting against a tyrannical owner. They are overpaid, overcompensated crybabies who have no grasp on reality.

There will be no ball this year, and the players will finally consent to a slightly less screw them deal.

[Too Late Crew]

D-Will also has an out in his contract over seas that if the NBA starts back up he can terminate it and head back. 4 million is the going rate for a guy who won't be sticking around for an undetermined amount of time with no guarantees.

So the argument becomes would players accept smaller contracts from NBA teams if they were allowed to terminate them and sign with another NBA team even in mid-season (not that the owners would ever agree to such a thing)?

Yes he has an out. He can go back to the NBA. It doesn't change the fact that he'd bet better off taking that out if his NBA salary were 6M a year rather than 16 M a year.

Williams only makes 4 M if he plays an entire year. That's his "market" price for a full year of Pro Ball. He's willing to lace up the shoes and play for 4M a year. So why would the NBA offer him 16 M?

Note his out is only if the NBA work stoppage is over. It doesn't allow him to simply up and play for any other Turkish league team or even any other Fiba team. That's not the same as what you are proposing.

The proper analogy would be would NBA players accept smaller contracts if they were allowed to leave and sign with Turkish league teams. The answer is NO.

He's got that out clause because he feels he can make MORE money in the NBA than in Turkey and doesn't want to miss out on making more money. If the NBA puts the max Salary at 8M wouldn't he still exercise the out clause because 8 M is more than 4m?