Real GM Top 100 List #11

[mysticbb]

Colts, I know how good the Celtics were even without Garnett, I specifically mentioned the Celtics 2008 as an excellent team without Garnett twice in my most recents replies to DS. So, not quite sure what your point is. But I'm also not sure that you got my point. Did you understand that Garnett made the difference between a really, really good team to a freaking great team which was playing so good to be able to win against a great Lakers team? We saw finals in 2008 with a 9.77 SRS (Celtics with Garnett) vs. 10.2 SRS (Lakers). That is not a typical final matchup. The Celtics without Garnett even with their really good SRS of 6.29 would have been expected to get nearly swept by the Lakers. And if the Lakers wouldn't have choked so badly in the 2nd half of game 4, we would have likely saw a 7 game series, which would give the Celtics the small edge of being the favorites to win by an average margin of 0.1 points (or 1 point overall), using the SRS and the HCA for the calculation. We saw two really great teams in the finals, and I have the strange feeling not many people are realising that. And that is the difference Garnett made to that team, going from really good to great.

[ronnymac2]

I'm really enjoying the discussion between Mysticbb and DavidStern. Even though I agree with Mystic overall, DS has brought up legitimate points about Robinson's support, especially regarding the lack of a creative perimeter player. His point guards were generally purely floor general types, which is valuable; however, sometimes, you need a ball-handler with some jazz to juice **** up. Robinson was never granted that.

That's still no excuse for Robinson as far as his own ineffective game against playoff defenses.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Julius Erving

Nominate: Dwyane Wade

I don't mind the Pettit vote though. He was great.

To be honest, I have no idea how to decide for the vote. I have no clue what I value more, the PFs and their advantages or the wings and their advantages. I'm pretty sure I prefer KG and Karl over Charles and Dirk. I'm pretty sure I've got Erving and West over Oscar. Erving vs. West vs. Malone vs. Garnett is just...I just picked one. That's about all I can say...

[Laimbeer]

I'm fine with the way this project is going, but one of the things that irks is me is just how much of the arguments are coming down to just throwing out boxscores and stats. I mean how many posts in this thread are actually talking about what Erving, Karl, KG actually do on a court instead of the numbers they put up and what their teammates put up and the result. Stats should be used to help us understand what the player is doing on the court, rather than exist as the argument itself, IMO

Agreed, and I'd add they're only one tool. Eyewitness accounts, awards, and expert opion are valid as well. Stats don't necessarily trump those or prove them invalid.

This thing does become a stat orgy at times.

[Laimbeer]

My primary reason for not voting Erving here is that I feel West is more valuable than him, as I said before. The reason I believe comes down to their offensive difference

I'd go for West myself but he's not really a solid contender yet. It's coming down to Doc, KG, and Malone in the vote and Doc is the most valid of those three at this level. I'm not quite ready for Karl or KG, but threads have now convinced me Karl > KG.

For the nomination, Pettit is overdue and has a nice lead. Zeke, Havlicek, and Baylor could go here as well, but no support yet.

Vote: Julius Erving

Nominate: Bob Pettit

[fatal9]

Vote: Kevin Garnett
Nominate: Wade

[Baller 24]

So far here's how it looks:

Dr J 8 (shawngoat23 TMACFORMVP An Unbiased Fan Baller 24 pancakes3 DavidStern ronnymac lambieer)
KG 6 (Dr Mufasa Doctor MJ Fencer reregistered therealbig3 drza fatal)
Karl 5 (Gongxi ElGee mysticbb FJS Bucksfans1and2)
West 2 (penbeast0 cpower)
Moses 2 (JordansBulls SDChargers#1)
LeBron 1 (colts18)


Pettit 12 (penbeast0 Doctor MJ ElGee mysticbb FJS DavidStern Bucksfans1and2 colts18 Gongxi An Unbiased Fan SDChargers#1 lambieer)
Wade 8 (therealbig3 Black Feet Dr Mufasa cpower Baller 24 ronnymac2 fatal drza)
Drexler 1 (JordanBulls)
Pippen 1 (Fencer reregistered)
Nash 1 (pancakes3)

[Laimbeer]

I nominated Pettit.

[NO-KG-AI]

My primary reason for not voting Erving here is that I feel West is more valuable than him, as I said before. The reason I believe comes down to their offensive difference

I'd go for West myself but he's not really a solid contender yet. It's coming down to Doc, KG, and Malone in the vote and Doc is the most valid of those three at this level. I'm not quite ready for Karl or KG, but threads have now convinced me Karl > KG.

For the nomination, Pettit is overdue and has a nice lead. Zeke, Havlicek, and Baylor could go here as well, but no support yet.

Vote: Julius Erving

Nominate: Bob Pettit

Seriously? SHouldn't you just vote for the guy you want to win the spot, and not vote based on trying to keep Malone/KG from winning?

[drza]

I would love to do a KG vs Doc J post. I have the seeds for one in my mind, but I just don't have the time tonight so I'll have to let it go. These are 2 of my 3 favorite players of all-time, so I'm happy to see both get the props they deserve.

It is extremely difficult to compare across eras and positions like this in a 1-to-1 way, but in the end I think that Garnett was slightly better. Even if it looks like Doc is going to win the spot.

Nominate: (no idea): I haven't put enough thought into this to speak intelligently. Looks like Pettit is going to get it...I wasn't quite as impressed with him during the RPoY project as I had thought to be...not really sure how I feel about the alternatives. Seen some Wade discussion, heard Ewing's name mentioned...I guess I'll go Wade.

Vote: Kevin Garnett
Nominate: Dwyane Wade

ETA: I see my vote's already been counted, so to avoid confusion make sure not to double-count me.

[Laimbeer]

My primary reason for not voting Erving here is that I feel West is more valuable than him, as I said before. The reason I believe comes down to their offensive difference

I'd go for West myself but he's not really a solid contender yet. It's coming down to Doc, KG, and Malone in the vote and Doc is the most valid of those three at this level. I'm not quite ready for Karl or KG, but threads have now convinced me Karl > KG.

For the nomination, Pettit is overdue and has a nice lead. Zeke, Havlicek, and Baylor could go here as well, but no support yet.

Vote: Julius Erving

Nominate: Bob Pettit

Seriously? SHouldn't you just vote for the guy you want to win the spot, and not vote based on trying to keep Malone/KG from winning?

Pragmatic to a fault, and I'd rather influence the choice.

[Baller 24]

New thread is up Petitt & Erving win, if any of the mods can sticky it, that'd be awesome. viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1126456