RealGM Top 100 List #13

Post #21 » by **FJS** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:21 pm

My vote goes to : Moses Malone
Nomination: Stockton

Moses is a 3 MVP, the only one with 3 or more mvp who is not in the list.
He played in diferent teams, different teammates and systems, and he always produced.
He made Philly won his ring.
In his peak he was a at least a 24 ppg with more than 13 rebounds.

Post #22 » by **FJS** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:27 pm

Laimbeer wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Vote: Moses Malone
Nominate: Clyde Drexler

I don't see how in the hell Karl Malone went ahead of Moses Malone.

Moses got next to no love. It's pretty clear to me a peak Moses is more valuable than a peak Karl or KG, so I'd be interested in the reasoning of the folks who emphasize peak and voted Karl or are favoring KG now. Moses wasn't discussed a lot, IIRC.

Altough Moses had a fantastic peak, he was had rollercoaster success with his teams, and he was not able to stick with any team.
In nba he was 6 years with Houston, then 4 with Philly, then 2 with Bullets, 3 with Hawks, 2 with Bucks, another one with philly and another with Spurs.
He had one ring, and another finals appareance, but some years with no playoffs or 1st round exit.

It's that the reason I have Karl above him. He was more durable, with a longer peak, in a same team.

pancakes3 · Post #23 » by **pancakes3** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:33 pm

Moses vs Robertson for me. O is kinda clear to be a better guard than West in my opinion. 3x MVP vs the best guard of the '60s (top 10 in ppg, apg, rpg in his legendary '62 season!). West could have been a LOT better than O but came up nicked up with little injuries here and there (hammies and hand) and fell short of "mr. clutch" rather often - 1970 finals come to mind.

nomination, really, any one of ewing, nash, havlicek, or frazier and i wouldn't have a big problem with it.

DocHoops · Post #24 » by **DocHoops** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:35 pm

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Post #25 » by **FJS** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:11 pm

And that doesn't make him greater, isn't it?
People like Russell, Magic, Jordan or Bird has a plus, to be identified with a franchise and win several rings and MVP.

Gongxi · Post #26 » by **Gongxi** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:58 pm

No, that shouldn't be a "plus" at all. Let's just judge them on how they played basketball.

colts18 · Post #27 » by **colts18** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:26 pm

Clutch stats from 2008-2011 (all per 48 minutes):
LeBron: 56 PPG, 12.4 Reb, 8.3 AST, .626 TS%, +31.7, 23.2 FTA
Nowitzki: 44 PPG, 11.1 Reb, 4.4 AST, .584 TS%, +25.1, 18.1 FTA
Wade: 38.8 PPG, 6.2 Reb, 7.9 AST, .518 TS%, -3.0, 17.7 FTA
Garnett: 21.3 PPG, 12.4 Reb, 3.1 AST, .529 TS%, +5.2, 6.9 FTA :lol:

As you can clearly see, KG lags way behind the competition. This is a constant theme I've noticed. You can't trust KG in the clutch because he can't create his own shot. He only shot 17.1 FGA/48 that is over 12 behind Wade and Dirk and less than half of what LeBron shot. So not only is KG not scoring, he is doing it inefficiently. And his best asset (Rebounding) isn't all that great when you consider that LeBron actually averages just as much clutch Rebounds and KG does. Some KG fans here argue that KG had more impact the past 4 years than Wade somewhat similar to Nowitzki and a little behind LeBron.

Let's look at 2008 when all 4 of these players were in their prime:
Garnett: 21.1 PPG, 13.2 Reb, 2.5 AST, -12, .467 TS%, 7.9 FTA :lol:

Nowitzki: 46 PPG, 13.6 Reb, 4.4 AST, .586 TS%, +17, 19.9 FTA
LeBron: 56 PPG, 9.6 Reb, 8.2 AST, .609 TS%, +31, 22.5
DWade: 35.4 PPG, 5.8 Reb, 8.2 AST, .450 TS%, -30, 20.3

Notice that KG is still lagging behind and this is supposed to be a historical season for KG. If I had to bet, you would see the same trend during his Minnesota career. Why are people ignoring the fact one of the reasons that KG didn't win might have been his finesse style of play. Guys like LeBron, Robinson, and Dirk can take mediocre teams far because they help their teams by drawing fouls. KG doesn't do that and never did that.

SDChargers#1 · Post #28 » by **SDChargers#1** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:32 pm

Personally I feel Moses has the best peak of anyone left (3 MVPs in 4 years). His finals run in '83 with stuff of legends, and his regular season peak isn't too shabby as well. He is the greatest offensive rebounder ever in my opinion, and an all time great scoring big man (KG is not).

I know everyone gets mesmerized by versatility in these threads which is why Garnett gets propped up so high. I just don't by into APM as much as others, so I have Garnett ranked a little bit lower than a large group here.

Vote: Moses Malone
Nomination: Scottie Pippen

Case for Pippen. He is the greatest perimeter defender of all time. Good enough to make an overall impact on team defense (the years that Jordan wasn't there, the Bulls were still a good defensive team (before Rodman as well)). Pippen was a great passer and great rebounder for his position. He was an above average to good scorer (though his efficiency is a little low).

His biggest drawback has always been that he played with the GOAT (Jordan), but I would say that his one season without him was quite successful, and he is the greatest 2nd banana in the history of the game.

Fencer reregistered · Post #29 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:40 pm

Gongxi wrote:No, that shouldn't be a "plus" at all. Let's just judge them on how they played basketball.

I'm into judging guys on how they contributed to their basketball teams' winning, and especially winning championships, whether that was on or off the court. KG definitely gets some intangibles credit for his ring, and I say that as a Celtic fan. Garnett is hardly the only reason the team had great psychology, but he was the 2nd biggest contributor after Doc Rivers. (I'd put Pierce 3rd and Posey 4th.)

Fencer reregistered · Post #30 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:48 pm

SDChargers#1 wrote:

Case for Pippen. He is the greatest perimeter defender of all time. Good enough to make an overall impact on team defense (the years that Jordan wasn't there, the Bulls were still a good defensive team (before Rodman as well)). Pippen was a great passer and great rebounder for his position. He was an above average to good scorer (though his efficiency is a little low).

His biggest drawback has always been that he played with the GOAT (Jordan), but I would say that his one season without him was quite successful, and he is the greatest 2nd banana in the history of the game.

I might well vote Pippen over Havlicek, but lets nominate Havlicek before we get around to Pippen.

8 rings.
Regarded by many as the best player on 1 or 2 championship teams.
First/best at 2 things -- 6th man and dogged high-energy perimeter defense.
Finals MVP.
Tied with Cousy for most all-star appearances and not on the list yet (once we vote West in), and generally tied for 7th-most all-star appearances all time.
Would probably be ahead of Pippen on all-defensive team selections if they'd had it his whole career.

I.e., Hondo has a few more "We at least have to get him into the discussion!" credentials.

colts18 · Post #31 » by **colts18** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:49 pm

Moses Malone Peak (1979-1985):
25.9 PPG, 14.8 Reb, 1.6 AST, 1.6 BLK, 10.2 FTA, 20.8 REB%, .578 TS%, 24.2 PER, .203 WS/48
Playoffs:
24.5 PPG, 14.2 Reb, 1.6 AST, 1.8 BLK, 8.4 FTA, 18.9 REB%, .544 TS%, 22.3 PER, .182 WS/48

I'd argue that his peak was better than KG's. He won 3 MVP, 2 Conference Finals, 1 title. Plus KG fans are going to argue that KG couldn't do anything with his bad teams because he faced great teams, well Moses Malone took a trash team comparable to KG's 05 and 06 teams and beat the Showtime Lakers and went to the Finals. KG never did anything close to that impressive.

Fencer reregistered · Post #32 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:49 pm

DocHoops wrote:
Shaq played 4 years with Orlando, seven with LA, three with Miami, two with Phoenix...etc

Shaq was put on the list too high.

Gongxi · Post #33 » by **Gongxi** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:03 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Gongxi wrote:No, that shouldn't be a "plus" at all. Let's just judge them on how they played basketball.

I'm into judging guys on how they contributed to their basketball teams' winning, and especially winning championships, whether that was on or off the court. KG definitely gets some intangibles credit for his ring, and I say that as a Celtic fan. Garnett is hardly the only reason the team had great psychology, but he was the 2nd biggest contributor after Doc Rivers. (I'd put Pierce 3rd and Posey 4th.)

Well, I'm into judging them on how they play basketball.

Dr Positivity · Post #34 » by **Dr Positivity** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:21 pm

The early 80s Rockets beside Moses were certainly not trash

ronnymac2 · Post #35 » by **ronnymac2** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:35 pm

I'm Fencer and Gongxi's medium.

The point of playing basketball is to win basketball games and ultimately championships. However, a single player cannot do this alone. A single player has never won a championship by himself. Michael Jordan is a loser without Steve Kerr. Shaquille ONeal is a loser without Rick Fox. A GOAT is only as good as the eighth best player on his championship teams.

I judge players on how they individually contributed to their team's winning. That doesn't mean the team needs to win for me to think extremely highly of the individual player. When it mattered, 2002 Tim Duncan contributed as much to his team as 2003 Tim Duncan.

Michael Jordan played at a championship-anchor level in 1989 and 1990. I essentially count Jordan as a champion those two years. He gave me everything I would have wanted as the base piece of a champion those two seasons- he just wasn't fortunate enough to have a championship-caliber eighth-best player. That's not his fault, and I don't discredit him for that. Same thing with LeBron James in 2009 and 2010.

ronnymac2 · Post #36 » by **ronnymac2** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:38 pm

I'm glad to see people are posting that they are open to Barry.

I can actually see the argument for Steve Nash as well. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's reasonable.

Solid discussion thus far, aside from the tired, recycled arguments that imo don't need to be gone over again (mostly the bogus ones against KG).

shawngoat23 · Post #37 » by **shawngoat23** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:05 pm

JordansBulls wrote:I don't see how in the hell Karl Malone went ahead of Moses Malone.

I don't get it either, although I still would have gone with West before I went with Moses.

34Dayz · Post #38 » by **34Dayz** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:07 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
DocHoops wrote:
Shaq played 4 years with Orlando, seven with LA, three with Miami, two with Phoenix...etc

Shaq was put on the list too low.

Quit hating on Shaq fencer.. its obvious few people share your opinion on him.

Intelligent people treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like they do Wizards MJ.
Never happened.

Shaq shoulda been at the 5 Spot ahead of Bird/Wilt..

anyway I think Moses deserves #13 he gets underrated cause alot of people arent familiar with him but he was a Legend. He was a 3time MVP and also one of the greatest offensive rebounders of all times and foul drawers.

colts18 · Post #39 » by **colts18** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:41 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:Solid discussion thus far, aside from the tired, recycled arguments that imo don't need to be gone over again (mostly the bogus ones against KG).

The argument is not tired and recycled. KG has to get over the fact that he simply didn't draw fouls and that hurt his team. I only have foul drawn data in 2008 which coincidentally is supposed to be a historical season for KG.

Shooting fouls: 46th (most important one)
Personal Fouls: 39th
Loose ball fouls: 83rd
Total Fouls drawn: 40th
Charges Committed (Not good): 23rd
Charges Drawn (good): 223rd

That is simply too low for a player of his caliber. Guys ahead of him include Mike Dunleavy, David West, Al Jefferson, Hedo, Okafor, Danny Granger, and Tony Parker.

Dwight Howard was #1, LeBron 3, Kobe 4, Dirk 8, Duncan 11, Pierce 12, Wade 27 (only 51 games). Elite Offensive players are supposed to draw tons of fouls unless they are PG (IE: Nash) so KG's offensive value outside of the box score is not really high.

Gongxi · Post #40 » by **Gongxi** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:13 pm

Man, such a tough decision. I could easily go Moses over KG as easily as KG over Moses. Same thing with Oscar and West. And the funny thing is that while I have some separation between them and the rest of the group, even that distinction is entirely minute. So these four are even closer than that.

In the end, though, I have to say the best defensive player of the group is KG (allowing that perimeter defenders are intrinsically less valuable than a defender of like skill in the interior, sorry Jerry). The best prime? Well, that's closer. The clear loser here is West. I think Moses and Oscar are almost indistinguishable in this category (perhaps a slight edge to Oscar). KG gets the nod again. Longevity? I think Oscar is at #4 here, and the other three are very comparable.

All that in mind, my vote will be for KG.

Nomination: Ewi- PSYCHE!- I changed my mind, I'll be going with Baylor.