RealGM Top 100 List #13

colts18 · Post #101 » by **colts18** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:30 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:KG has 4 first teams, and one of them is in Boston, don't you see a problem here? He has one year where he didn't make it in Minnesota, and another where he is third.

Team success should matter, but KG in 05-06, and 06-07 has a 3rd team, and a no team all NBA, but he's a substantially better player than in 07-08.

Yes it can happen. From 93-96, Karl Malone finished 8th, 7th, 3rd, and 7th in MVP and this was from his age 29-32 seasons where he should have been in his prime. Then from 97-99 in his age 33-35 seasons, he finished 1st, 2nd, 1st. Does that really make sense? Even in 2000 at age 36 he finished 4th yet somehow he was better at age 36 he was better than age 29. Hakeem Olajuwon from 90-92 was 27-29 and he finished 2nd team, 3rd team, and no-team all-NBA. All of a sudden he finished 1st team two years in a row and 3 times in 5 years. Was he better at age 34 when he made first team than he was at age 29 when he made no-team? It happens all the time in the NBA. Players have down years and they have up years.

If a guy makes no NBA team, and he's a substantially better player than a first teamer, does it even matter?

When did this happen to KG? He hasn't made an all-NBA team from 09-11, he was not better than the 1st team player unless they you believe in the flawed APM stat. In his prime in 2006 when he made no-team, he was not better than the 1st teamers Dirk and LeBron. Dirk averaged 27-9 and had a magnificent season. LeBron averaged 31-7-7 taking a crap team with a supporting cast on the level of KG's, to 50 wins. His team started Eric Snow, Drew Gooden, and a combo of Larry Hughes, Flip Murray, and Sasha Pavlovic. KG can't complain about garbage because LeBron took his garbage pretty far.

pancakes3 · Post #102 » by **pancakes3** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:41 am

vote: West
nominate: Barry

Post #103 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:54 am

Garnett made one third team, and nothing else between 05-07, where he was a substantially better player than he was in 08, when he won DPOY, 3rd in MVP, and first team all NBA.

If he was DPOY, 3rd in MVP and first team all NBA, but he was better in his last two seasons on the Wolves. What does that say? Too much emphasis on team success.

pancakes3 · Post #104 » by **pancakes3** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:14 am

"too much emphasis on team success" cuts two ways. it would diminish his '08 achievements and really nullify his '08 1st team nod and most of his DPOY.

DocHoops · Post #105 » by **DocHoops** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:15 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:Garnett made one third team, and nothing else between 05-07, where he was a substantially better player than he was in 08, when he won DPOY, 3rd in MVP, and first team all NBA.

If he was DPOY, 3rd in MVP and first team all NBA, but he was better in his last two seasons on the Wolves. What does that say? Too much emphasis on team success.

He wasnn't better during those last two years with the Wolves. He was a beaten man, his effort was inconsistent and he wasn't leading anymore. He needed a change of scenary.

Team success is all that matters in a team game lik basketball. Garnett did a lot more to contribute to a lot more significant wins in '08 than in the two previous years combined.

Post #106 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:34 am

Okay guys, I'll be out of town for a while so I have to just give my upcoming lists. Too bad, more conversation might have changed my mind on some points:

My next 5 vote candidates:

1. Garnett
2. Oscar
3. West
4. Moses
5. LeBron

My next 5 nomination candidates:

1. Frazier
2. Nash
3. Havlicek
4. Pippen
5. Barry

Post #107 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:38 am

DocHoops wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:Garnett made one third team, and nothing else between 05-07, where he was a substantially better player than he was in 08, when he won DPOY, 3rd in MVP, and first team all NBA.

If he was DPOY, 3rd in MVP and first team all NBA, but he was better in his last two seasons on the Wolves. What does that say? Too much emphasis on team success.

He wasnn't better during those last two years with the Wolves. He was a beaten man, his effort was inconsistent and he wasn't leading anymore. He needed a change of scenary.

Team success is all that matters in a team game lik basketball. Garnett did a lot more to contribute to a lot more significant wins in '08 than in the two previous years combined.

Bull, he was definitely better in Minnesota, substantially more athletic, and capable of a heavier workload and minutes. Not even an argument, this is spoken like someone that is grasping at straws, not someone that followed the team (which is reasonable, not many did).

Calling out KG for effort is about the most laughable thing I've ever heard :rofl:

pancakes3 wrote:"too much emphasis on team success" cuts two ways. it would diminish his '08 achievements and really nullify his '08 1st team nod and most of his DPOY.

Indeed, I wouldn't have given KG the 1st place vote for RPOY that season, but he was definitely first team and DPOY worthy, he's still doing DPOY numbers years later, and he's slipped a lot further.

His 08 season is a little overrated in retrospect(the regular season), but a lot of his Wolves seasons are substantially underrated.

Post #108 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:41 am

therealbig3 wrote:I see both Barry and Baylor get bashed for their inefficiency, but ronnymac2 just had a great post about Barry. I feel more confident in my nomination for him, he sounded like a poor man's Bird.

But concerning Baylor, what about his inefficiency? The numbers he put up were almost Wilt-like, but the impression I get from the board is that he wasn't THAT good. As of right now, he's next on my list after Barry.

And as for Ewing, why Ewing over guys like Barry, Baylor, Pippen, Frazier, or Nash...or even Havlicek?

Havlicek seems like a poor man's Barry...not quite the scorer, but a great playmaker, rebounder, and especially defender in his own right. An extremely clutch player too.

Baylor's inefficiency is a pretty major problem for me. LIterally, the other 3 big offensive stars of his era are all drastically more efficient than him, and one of those guys he shared a team with and he still jacked up shots at a massive volume.

Barry's inefficiency is a problem, but it does seem clear that Barry was someone very much helping his team's offense in ways other than his scoring.

Re: "Havlicek = poor man's Barry", I don't really get that. Barry's better with the ball, Havlicek's better without the ball. Barry's thus a better alpha, but far less versatile.

Post #109 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:45 am

Doc, very surprised to see you take Oscar over West.

DocHoops · Post #110 » by **DocHoops** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:58 am

"It was time to go, I gve everything I had to them but I couldn't get up to that level ever night anymore, I was exhausted."

"I'm loyal to a point where if someone's loyal to me, then I have no problem with that. But when that changes, it's pretty easy for me."

-Kevin Garnett

So you can admit your wrong when you're ready NO-KG-AI

Post #111 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:04 am

Give me a break, KG was shut down at the end of the season when he was clearly nursing a knee injury(which required surgery that summer), that's about the only time he looked off, but he was all NBA 3rd team that year, and the season before that he was much better, 22 points, almost 13 rebounds, 4 assists, on 52% shooting.

You can try to make it into whatever you want, but you're clearly a person that only looks at team success, and you very clearly weren't watching the Timberwolves, if you think Garnett in 08 was close to the athlete he was back then.

It's funny how all of his effort was lacking, yet he led the league in rebounding for two straight years, but he goes to Boston and all of his "effort" comes back, and he drops off significantly in the effort stats.

You can go read all the anecdotes you want, but don't pretend you were following the T-Wolves those years, because you obviously weren't.

DocHoops · Post #112 » by **DocHoops** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:12 am

^ Got as far as give me a break and put you on ignore.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but when I say something, it's not just an opinion. There is a reason for it.

Post #113 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:15 am

Lol, cool story bro, anyone that thinks KG in Boston was better than KG in Minnesota is delusional/jaded/agenda driven and not worth discussing anything with.

Post #114 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:38 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:Doc, very surprised to see you take Oscar over West.

Really close call that I don't feel strongly about. Really what it comes down to is that I no longer feel right giving West the "boost" I used to relative to Oscar. Oscar may have been an SOB, but he ran the best offense of the 60s - so it seems a might silly knocking him for being seemingly selfish with respect to Lucas. Then when he went to Milwaukee and actually had a best-in-the-game scorer to work with, he took to the pass-first distributor role with the greatest of ease.

His career actually has less questions about underachieving relative to talent than West's.

Peak on peak, I'll still take West, but when I tally up their achievements over their career Oscar comes out on top, and I've really got no reason to go against him.

34Dayz · Post #115 » by **34Dayz** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:40 am

Minnesota KG was an athletic Freak and a 20/12/5 Threat each year.. definitly better then Bos KG.

Baller 24 · Post #116 » by **Baller 24** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:12 am

Vote: Kevin Garnett

Nominate: Walt Fraizer

DocHoops · Post #117 » by **DocHoops** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:18 am

Sinant · Post #118 » by **Sinant** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:41 am

DocHoops wrote:How much longer will this group go on ignoring Mikan? An obvious top ten all-time if you put your personal bias against an era none of you saw out of mind.

In 60 years, which player will mean more to the history of basketball Mikan or Garnett? It's a pretty obvious answer.

One of the project managers can correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that pre-shotclock is being ignored for this project.

DocHoops · Post #119 » by **DocHoops** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:51 am

^My mistake, I'll erase my post.

Post #120 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:36 am

Looks like Kevin Garnett is number 13 on our list. The nominations are not only scattered but a dead tie between Havlicek and Barry . . . I would switch my vote to break the tie but not to either of these two since I consider both Baylor and Pippen better players at the same position so we will just have one less nominated player for the next and succeeding rounds. Maybe we will get down to 6 again after all

Votes
Garnett – 10 (Dr Mufasa, therealbig3, ElGee, DavidStern, mysticbb, Fencer reregistered, Gongxi, drza, Doctor MJ, Baller24)
West – 7 (cpower, Jay From LA, penbeast0, An Unbiased Fan, ronnymac, Laimbeer, pancakes3)
Moses – 3 (JordansBulls, FJS, SDChargers#1)

Nominations
Havlicek – 4 (Fencer reregistered, cpower, Jay From LA, Laimbeer)
Barry – 4 (therealbig, ronnymac3, David Stern, pancakes3)
Frazier – 3 (penbeast0, Doctor MJ, Baller24)
Stockton – 2 (FJS, An Unbiased Fan)
Baylor – 2 (Gongxi, mysticbb)
Pippen – 2 (SDChargers#1, drza)
Howard – 1 (Bucksfan1and2)
Nash – 1 (ElGee)
Drexler – 1 (JordansBulls)
Ewing – 1 (Dr Mufasa)

Thanks to Dr Mufasa and David Stern for most of these votes, I just updated their info