ImageImageImage

Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp)

Moderators: Domejandro, Worm Guts, Calinks

User avatar
horaceworthy
Head Coach
Posts: 6,650
And1: 250
Joined: Jan 17, 2006
Location: Ruining Fuddrucker's for everyone

Re: Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp) 

Post#21 » by horaceworthy » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:41 pm

JMillott wrote:Jefferson may not be a franchise player that doesn't mean he doesn't have value and it certainly doesn't mean the Wolves made out by freeing up the money from Jefferson to sign Darko, Pekovic and the key to getting Randolph (a guy who has done absolutely nothing and whose rookie deal is almost up) was eating Eddy Curry's contract and having Brewer's to send out.

And why did the Wolves have the space to absorb Curry's contract? Darko and Pekovic were signed before Jefferson was traded. It's tough to get more than cap relief and a couple minor assets for a non franchise player with warts who also makes 8 figures.

The point is that it was obvious that Al Jefferson rushed back from his knee injury and gutted through the season at far less then 100% in his last year with the Wolves. Dealing him before he was healthy was stupid in my opinion and he showed it by playing excellent basketball from almost exactly two years after the injury averaging 24/11 over Feb/Mar this past year. He has improved as a passer, his defense was better once he was 100% and he has further cut his turnovers.

If you can't see how his trade value would clearly be higher now then it was last summer then I don't know what I can do for you. It sure would've been nice to have that asset around during the draft process when they were shopping the #2 pick.

Non superstars or All-Stars who are off their rookie contracts and may or may not be appropriately paid typically go for about what Jefferson went for, particularly if the goal of the team trading them is to rebuild. Look at the Gerald Wallace deal. It also didn't help that there are legitimate questions about whether or not even a healthy Big Al's style of play is something that can fit onto a winning team, and that he's a subpar defender no matter how much you try to spin that.

It's also unlikely that even a mini resurgence would have taken place for Jefferson here. Never in my life have I seen a player more in need of a change of scenery or more miserable on the court than Jefferson his final year in Minnesota, and that includes the time KG spent stalking the court like he was going to strangle somebody. Jefferson would have been playing in an offense that didn't get him the ball in his favorite place and would have asked him not to play to his strengths, with subpar talent surrounding him. He likely would have played better than he did in '09-10, but if you're trying to sell that he would have posted numbers like he did while the Jazz went down the tubes, I'm not buying it.

I think its laughable that people will just try and lay blame on Jefferson and simply ignore how badly his career has been screwed over by bad timing and playing on bad teams. Had he broke out in Boston during any other season, Paul Pierce would've been healthy as he has been every other year and they make the playoffs. He gets send to Sota for a Hall of Famer only the Wolves don't make the Celtics take their trash in the deal and instead accept the Celtics trash (Telfair, Green, Gomes, etc when they should've insisted on Powe, T.Allen, Rondo, Perk and or sent Jaric or some other trash with KG) then the Wolves proceed to draft Brewer, Love, Rubio, Flynn, Lawson, Ellington over his time there.

There's certainly some merit to the notion that Jefferson has been a victim of circumstance throughout his career, but that doesn't mean he's teflon from any culpability when it comes to his lack of team success. Until he helps lead a team at least to a winning record and/or a playoff appearance (as more than a bit player in Boston's 'Toine sequel), questions will remain.

Corey Brewer only made sense as the Wolves pick with KG in town. Love was and is a fine pick but if the point was to win quickly Gordon and Lopez might've been better picks at the time, in 09 Kahn reset the clock by dealing Foye and Miller for the #5 and then proceeded to get zero impact for two years out of three top 18 picks in one of the deepest most talented draft classes in recent years.

Brewer was technically picked when KG was still in town. He was still a bad selection in hindsight no matter how it's sliced. When Love was picked, the point wasn't really to win quickly, even though McHale did like the idea of surrounding Jefferson with shooters. Kahn's abhorrent in the draft, particularly when a guy from Syracuse with a nice smile is on the board (although I remember a certain Boston fan who summers on the Minnesota board pimping Flynn a ton before the draft and singing Kahn's praises after the 2010 draft). Thanks for noticing.

I like Jefferson, I hope things work out for him in Utah. They weren't going to here, as it was clear both that Jefferson had thrown in the towel and the organization wanted to go in a different direction. It was time for both parties to move on.
"A while back,'' Cardinal said, "I took a picture of the standings and texted it to Love, just to bust his chops,'' Cardinal said. "He sent me a picture back of a snowdrift.''
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 68,803
And1: 22,392
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp) 

Post#22 » by Klomp » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:09 pm

JMillott wrote:Yes, again its Al Jefferson's fault that a team with an injured Devin Harris, washed up Raja Bell, AK47 banged up, Millsap banged up, etc went 7-19. He gets screwed by virtue of having played all 82 games with all the roster turnover his team +/- stats are badly skewed against him.

They played .641% basketball with their intended roster and Al Jefferson was still adjusting to the system, getting back to 100%. I see absolutely no reason to believe that if Deron Williams doesn't hurt his wrist and stays why they wouldn't have been better after Jefferson hit his stride and after they stopped force feeding minutes to Bell that were better served to Miles and Hayward.

If they had they would pushed the Thunder for the division title despite losing Carlos Boozer, Memhet Okur, Wesley Matthews and Kyle Korver while only adding Jefferson, Raja Bell's corpse and Hayward.

So tell me, how exactly is that Al Jefferson's fault in any way shape or form and they didn't get two first round picks for him they got to protected first round picks. I wouldn't be saying a word if those picks weren't lotto protected or if Kahn had better spent the money.

By the way as for the two years at $29 the Grizzlies just extended Zach Randolph did they not? The NBA teams still gave out some of the worst contracts in the league just last summer. Corey Maggette, John Salmons, Stephen Jackson were all traded about a month ago and when the lockout is over more bad contracts will be signed and traded that are far far worse then Al Jefferson's deal.

I fully admit that ideally, Al Jefferson would be making closer to $20-25 over that time but making $29 is hardly outlandish compared to many other contracts around the league. He is also certainly capable of earning that contract if he plays his best basketball and is healthy.

With the Jazz fully healthy, Al is their second or third best player. When they went down, if Al is as good as you say he is, they shouldn't have dropped off as much as they did. As for Zach, when the Grizzlies lost their best player in Rudy Gay, Zach led his team to a playoff berth. That is the difference between the two.

Yes those guys were traded, but in a deal for each other. Not much value was gained. Lottery protected or not, we got two 1sts for Al. The only hideous contract involved in the trade was Al's.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
User avatar
Krapinsky
RealGM
Posts: 20,712
And1: 1,952
Joined: May 13, 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp) 

Post#23 » by Krapinsky » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:41 pm

I couldn't be happier with how the Al trade turned out. Aside from the protected firsts, If we didn't trade Al we likely wouldn't have Beasley, Randolph, or Williams.
FinnTheHuman wrote: Your post is just garbage.

NewWolvesOrder wrote:Garbage post, indeed.
User avatar
floppymoose
Senior Mod - Warriors
Senior Mod - Warriors
Posts: 59,291
And1: 17,405
Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Location: Trust your election workers

Re: Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp) 

Post#24 » by floppymoose » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:13 am

The Al Jeff trade was fine. I think you should also trade Love. I believe his value is higher now than it will ever be, and while he's a decent player, he is quite overrated. Eventually the rest of the league is going to figure that out. Get maximum value for him before that.
JMillott
Pro Prospect
Posts: 963
And1: 32
Joined: Apr 07, 2008

Re: Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp) 

Post#25 » by JMillott » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:38 am

Here are the things I have optimism about for the Wolves.

Kevin Love is a legitimate allstar and played at an allstar level across two positions despite playing on a bad team and didn't need to have a bunch of plays run for him to do it. He is young and in my opinion likely to re-sign as things are in fact looking up.

Derrick Williams, now as many of you know he wasn't the pick I was pulling for, I was interested in trading down for Kanter and Burks with the Jazz but it was never because I thought badly of Williams. I like Williams and as you all know I think his being here pushes Beasley out, maybe not as soon as is like but still soon.

Anyway I'm all for backing up strength with more strength, that Williams should be able to play at SF to get extra minutes and that Love has proven he can slide to C should give them a chance to take full advantage of this strength. They should be able to stretch defenses beyond their braking point which should allow Rubio to carve them up and make driving lanes that even Wesley and Martell can drive through not to mention Williams himself who they'll have to foul to keep from scoring.

Wesley Johnson sure he had a rough rookie year and that is a concern given his age but he certainly had his moments too and is clearly capable of being a solid defender at SG. He has athletic ability to spare for the NBA and the position as well length/strength and the silky smooth jumper with the high release point that is impossible to block or really even challenge curling off a screen.

As for the tough rookie year, he was in a bad system for his skills and asked to move from college PF to NBA SG? In a hard system to pick up for vets. He also struggled early in college at Iowa St before transfering to Cuse, put in the work and put up a fantastic season. In other words he isn't going to sulk in the corner he's going to work and come back better for it.
User avatar
Krapinsky
RealGM
Posts: 20,712
And1: 1,952
Joined: May 13, 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp) 

Post#26 » by Krapinsky » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:48 am

I don't think we're going to trade Love, the only sure thing on our roster, and a guy who is the rare marketable player on a small market team.

Not to mention the perfect cog for a running team -- with the outlets and the trail 3 pointers.
FinnTheHuman wrote: Your post is just garbage.

NewWolvesOrder wrote:Garbage post, indeed.
User avatar
floppymoose
Senior Mod - Warriors
Senior Mod - Warriors
Posts: 59,291
And1: 17,405
Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Location: Trust your election workers

Re: Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp) 

Post#27 » by floppymoose » Mon Aug 8, 2011 2:07 am

You need to get him a center that compliments him if you are keeping him. A fast shot blocker with a good motor for help d.
C.lupus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 30,827
And1: 8,857
Joined: Nov 02, 2007

Re: Reasons for Optimism (per request of Klomp) 

Post#28 » by C.lupus » Mon Aug 8, 2011 2:07 pm

floppymoose wrote:You need to get him a center that compliments him if you are keeping him. A fast shot blocker with a good motor for help d.

Agreed. That's why I wanted Kahn to figure out a way to get Biyombo in the draft. Oh well. I guess we will see if Randolph can fill that role at least part time.

Return to Minnesota Timberwolves