RealGM Top 100 List #14

[lorak]

(BTW, which games exactly Robertson missed that year?)

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RK Date                Opp                       SRS
 4  Wed, Oct 22, 1969   Los Angeles Lakers     L   1.76 109  116
 57 Sat, Jan 31, 1970   Detroit Pistons        W  -2.94 117  115
 58 Sun, Feb 1, 1970  @ Chicago Bulls          L  -1.71 108  115
 59 Tue, Feb 3, 1970  N Los Angeles Lakers     L   1.76 114  124
 60 Wed, Feb 4, 1970    Seattle SuperSonics    L  -2.43 115  121
 61 Fri, Feb 6, 1970    New York Knicks        L   8.42  92  135
 62 Sat, Feb 7, 1970  @ New York Knicks        L   8.42 114  121
 63 Sun, Feb 8, 1970  @ Boston Celtics         L   -1.6 117  130
 64 Tue, Feb 10, 1970 @ Detroit Pistons        W  -2.94 117  115
 65 Wed, Feb 11, 1970 N Detroit Pistons        W  -2.94 124  113
 66 Fri, Feb 13, 1970 @ San Francisco Warriors W  -4.15 128  110
 67 Sun, Feb 15, 1970 @ San Diego Rockets      L  -2.95 123  150
 68 Wed, Feb 18, 1970 N Atlanta Hawks          L   0.31 125  139


Thx

Raw boxscore numbers? Indeed, but West beats Robertson in advanced stats.

There are no individual advanced stats from that era. PER and WS had serious flaws even when we have complete data, estimated PER and WS are almost useless.

Robertson was clearly better offensive player (b-r blog posts) and on defensive end (and keep in mind that defense in case of small players is less important) there isn't much difference between them (according to objective data). And of course there is that huge issue with West's injures.

As I said, West played on a better team, had similar impact numbers and better advanced boxscore stats. No idea, but that sounds rather obvious to me to select West here.

Robertson had better impact numbers. Read that post on b-r about the best offenses (http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7225), look at with/without. Every data shows that Big O had more impact as offensive player, and was comparable on defensive end. And he of course wasn't as often injured as West - which BTW you didn't respond, you count Dirk or Moses elite years, but how many West have? Is year with 55-60 games "elite"?

And you didn't answer why you voted West before Dirk?

[mysticbb]

There are no individual advanced stats from that era. PER and WS had serious flaws even when we have complete data, estimated PER and WS are almost useless.

No, they are not. You can still use them in order to get an impression how much a player played above average even if that is just the small amount of data available.

Robertson had better impact numbers. Read that post on b-r about the best offenses (http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7225), look at with/without. Every data shows that Big O had more impact as offensive player, and was comparable on defensive end.

The Royals were bad, but they weren't pushed to a great team by Robertson. You act like we see here a constant improvement from a bad team to a contender, but that isn't the case.
Also, Robertsons' performance in the playoffs decreased more. When we look at the year by year numbers, we can see Robertson has 0.94 for the playoffs, West had 0.96 and Nowitzki 0.99. Nowitzki and West playing on a higher level than the league average in comparison to Robertson.

And you didn't answer why you voted West before Dirk?

West has a slight advantage over Nowitzki, that's all. It could go either way, imho, and you have a reasonable argument against West by using missed games. Maybe I should change my vote to Nowitzki, especially when I see that a 7 yr All-NBA can get votes already based upon the MVP voting process and not based on his actual performance level.

[lorak]

There are no individual advanced stats from that era. PER and WS had serious flaws even when we have complete data, estimated PER and WS are almost useless.

No, they are not. You can still use them in order to get an impression how much a player played above average even if that is just the small amount of data available..

Its' all estimations, so we don't even know how much exactly is average. It's important in this case, because even in PER and WS there isn't big difference between Robertson and West, so in reality it could go either way. In fact Big O is better both in PER (slightly) and WS (big margin), however JW is better in WS/48 (slightly).

[

And you didn't answer why you voted West before Dirk?

West has a slight advantage over Nowitzki, that's all.

But where exactly you see that advantage?

The Royals were bad, but they weren't pushed to a great team by Robertson.

Even KG can't make contenders from TWolves when he had bad team around him. But that doesn't change the fact, that his impact was great. The same is with Robertson.

[pancakes3]

The Royals were bad, but they weren't pushed to a great team by Robertson.

Even KG can't make contenders from TWolves when he had bad team around him. But that doesn't change the fact, that his impact was great. The same is with Robertson.

oh how the tables have turned

[colts18]

No, he isn't nowhere near great defender and Oscar was easily better offensive player: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1126742
In short: Robertson's impact was Magic like. West's a little bit below these kind of players.

There is actually also data for the 1969-70 season, in which the Royals were -7.77 without Robertson and -2.04 with him. That makes +5.7. And a team being bad is easy to be lifted by a couple of poins than a good team. Yes, that team was bad, but Robertson didn't make them contenders.

And when we look at his performance level, we have to see that he isn't quite as good. His numbers are inflated by pace and minutes played. I said that before, if Robertson had 9 to 10 elite seasons, Nowitzki has 11.
Btw, same for Moses Malone. When we look through the 1st 13 seasons of him, we are getting worse numbers as for Nowitzki's first 13 seasons. We have 8 All-NBA seasons for Moses Malone during those seasons, we have 11 for Nowitzki.
Nowitzki should be AHEAD of Moses Malone and Oscar Robertson.

To be fair to Malone, he played in an era of 2 all-NBA slots and 1 of them was always reserved for Kareem. Plus, he came out of high school so his early years weren't great.

[FJS]

Vote Moses Malone
Nomination: John Stockton

[mysticbb]

Its' all estimations, so we don't even know how much exactly is average.

True, but that is basically true for all those metrics. They are based upon estimations, that's how it is.

It's important in this case, because even in PER and WS there isn't big difference between Robertson and West, so in reality it could go either way. In fact Big O is better both in PER (slightly) and WS (big margin), however JW is better in WS/48 (slightly).

Also true, but then we take a look at the playoff numbers. And as you might noticed already, I value playoff numbers indeed more than regular season numbers. I'm not just saying it, I really do.

But where exactly you see that advantage?

Basically era-dominance in that case. But the more I think about it, the more I should maybe bring that preconception down too. Not quite sure, but right now I have West with one quality season more than Nowitzki, but you are right, West missed a lot of games, which brings his value overall (due to playing time) for a franchise down.

Even KG can't make contenders from TWolves when he had bad team around him. But that doesn't change the fact, that his impact was great. The same is with Robertson.

True, but the Wolves were even worse AND Garnett actually increased their level to be either on par or even ahead of Robertson's Royals.

To be fair to Malone, he played in an era of 2 all-NBA slots and 1 of them was always reserved for Kareem. Plus, he came out of high school so his early years weren't great.

Well, how many seasons do you want to give to him additional to those 8? Look at his playing level, he didn't play better than Nowitzki in one of his non All-NBA seasons anyway. So, I think it is a fair assessment here.

[lorak]

The Royals were bad, but they weren't pushed to a great team by Robertson.

Even KG can't make contenders from TWolves when he had bad team around him. But that doesn't change the fact, that his impact was great. The same is with Robertson.

oh how the tables have turned

What do you mean by that?

And this KG analogy is even better than I thought, because when KG finally had good team around him he made them one of the best defensive teams of all time. The same is with Robertson and making Bucks one of the best offensive teams of all time: http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205

Looking at SRS Robertson was worth about 8 pts as he was the only main addition to 1971 team. Of course KAJ also developed from rookie year, so this have to be included.
Celtics with KG improved by ~13 pts, but there was also addition of another all time great player (Allen) and in 2007 Pierce missed a lot of games and Celtics tanked, so overall Robertson's and KG's impact seems to be very similar - all time great impressive.

[cpower]

Vote Jerry West
Nomination John Havlicek



And where is Havlicek on the list?

[penbeast0]

He isn't, there was a nomination tie last time and so no new nominee was added. Hopefully we get more consensus this time and coalesce around one or two main nominations.

[mysticbb]

Looking at SRS Robertson was worth about 8 pts as he was the only main addition to 1971 team. Of course KAJ also developed from rookie year, so this have to be included.
Celtics with KG improved by ~13 pts, but there was also addition of another all time great player (Allen) and in 2007 Pierce missed a lot of games and Celtics tanked, so overall Robertson's and KG's impact seems to be very similar - all time great impressive.

Well, I just looked through the google archives and found out that Robertson had an eye injury in 1964. ("Oscar Robertson allpro guard of the Cincinnati Royals needed 10 stitches Sunday night to close up a wound in his left eye suffered during the Royals 114101 victory over the Detroit Pistons Robertson was jabbed in the eye..."). He missed the next 5 games with the Royals going in average +1.8 vs. teams with an average SRS of 2.15 (played the Hawks twice, the Celtics, 76ers and Bullets once). They were 2.31 in the rest of the games with Robertson playing against -0.41 SRS teams in average. It was also said in one of the arcticles that Robertson missed two of three pre-season games with the Royals winning 2 of them.

Also, regarding Jerry Lucas, he missed 14 games, I was able to figure out that he missed all games between February 3rd and 27th. That makes 13 games in which the Royals went +3.9 in average. Couldn't figure out the last game he missed. But maybe in March against the Celtics (last game), when had a chest bruise in the game before against the 76ers and used some sort of protection in that game. Anyway, you mentioned it earlier, but it seems like Jerry Lucas weren't a high impact player.

[drza]

Re: Oscar vs West

I went back and looked at my RPoY vote, and I had Oscar voted ahead of West every year from 1961 - 1969. The good thing with that project was that we went through year-to-year, and even beyond the limited B-R stats that are available, we had guys like ThaRegulator pulling up all types of old articles from that time period that even gave us a few individual games, especially in the postseason, and semi-sentient compiling the regular and postseason data + MVP vote in easy to read tables. I think the tendency in projects like this top-100 list is to go too broad. To focus so much on career trends that we tend to miss important details. My voting record on Oscar and West definitely was not the project consensus, but at least I can post my votes and rationales to give a general idea for why I have Oscar rated higher overall.

1961: Oscar 4th, West not voted, (Elgin Baylor 2nd).

The order here wasn't controversial at all, as Oscar was already a star and Jerry really wasn't yet. But it's important to note Elgin's ranking here, because for at least a portion of the 60s the Lakers were more "Elgin's team" than "Jerry's team", which had ramifications to me in the Oscar vs West question.

1962: Oscar 3rd, West not voted, (Elgin Baylor 4th)

Here is what Semi-sentient had for the stats/MVP vote of 1962:

Regular Season

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Player            GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST
=======================================================
Bill Russell      76   45.2   18.9   .489   23.6    4.5
Wilt Chamberlain  80   48.5*  50.4*  .536   25.7*   2.4
Oscar Robertson   79   44.3   30.8   .554   12.5   11.4*
Elgin Baylor      48   44.4   38.3   .492   18.6    4.6
Jerry West        75   41.2   30.8   .524    7.9    5.4

Post Season

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Player            GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST
=======================================================
Bill Russell      14   48.0*  22.4   .519   26.4    5.0
Wilt Chamberlain  12   48.0*  35.0   .508   26.6*   3.1
Oscar Robertson    4   46.3   28.8   .519   11.0   11.0*
Elgin Baylor      13   43.9   38.6*  .503   17.7    3.6
Jerry West        13   42.8   31.5   .544    6.8    4.4

Awards Recognition / Misc

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Player            MVP     All-NBA   Team Record
===============================================
Bill Russell      1st     2nd       60-20*
Wilt Chamberlain  2nd     1st       49-31
Oscar Robertson   3rd     1st       43-37
Elgin Baylor      4th     1st       54-26
Jerry West        5th     1st       54-26

It seemed to me that both Oscar and Elgin still had a clear advantage on West in both the regular (*caveat for Elgin's military service/missed games) and post-season.

1963: Oscar 2nd, Elgin 4th, West not voted

Here are semi-sentient's stats for the season:

Regular Season

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Player            GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST
=======================================================
Bill Russell      78   44.9   16.8   .464   23.6   4.5
Oscar Robertson   80   44.0   28.3   .588   10.4   9.5
Wilt Chamberlain  80   47.6*  44.8*  .550   24.3*  3.4
Elgin Baylor      80   42.1   34.0   .519   14.3   4.8
Bob Pettit        79   39.1   28.4   .525   15.1   3.1
Jerry West        55   39.3   27.1   .523    7.0   5.6

Post Season

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Player            GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST
=======================================================
Bill Russell      13   47.5   20.3   .508   25.1*  5.1
Oscar Robertson   12   47.5*  31.8   .574   13.0   9.0*
Wilt Chamberlain  ------------------------------------
Elgin Baylor      13   43.2   32.6*  .508   13.6   4.5
Bob Pettit        11   42.1   31.8   .543   15.1   3.0
Jerry West        13   41.4   27.8   .548    8.2   4.7

Awards Recognition / Misc

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Player            MVP     All-NBA   Team Record
===============================================
Bill Russell      1st     1st       58-22*
Oscar Robertson   3rd     1st       42-38
Wilt Chamberlain  7th     2nd       31-49
Elgin Baylor      2nd     1st       53-27
Bob Pettit        4th     1st       48-32
Jerry West        5th     1st       53-27

Another easy win for Oscar. Better player in regular and postseason, and West played only 55 games. (Side note: this also speaks to the dearth of dominant players of the era. West was 5th in the MVP vote despite playing only 55 games, just like Baylor was 4th in the '62 vote despite playing in only 48 games. Hard to imagine a player even finishing with a single MVP vote these days if they missed so many games).

1964: Oscar 3rd, West 5th

This was Oscar's MVP year, and another comfortable win over West. I'll post semi's season stats below, but Oscar was still better in both the regular and post season.

* = led the league

Regular Season

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Player            GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST
=======================================================
Bill Russell      78   44.6   15.0   .461   24.7*   4.7
Jerry West        72   40.4   28.7   .562    6.0    5.6
Oscar Robertson   79   45.1   31.4   .576    9.9   11.0*
Wilt Chamberlain  80   46.1*  36.9*  .537   22.3    5.0
Bob Pettit        80   41.2   27.4   .535   15.3    3.2

Post Season

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Player            GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST
=======================================================
Bill Russell      10   45.1   13.1   .406   27.2*   4.4
Jerry West         5   41.2   31.2   .564    7.2    3.4
Oscar Robertson   10   47.1*  29.3   .568*   8.9    8.4*
Wilt Chamberlain  12*  46.5   34.7*  .543   25.2    3.3
Bob Pettit        12*  41.2   21.0   .483   14.5    2.8

Awards Recognition / Misc

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Player            MVP     All-NBA   Team Record
===============================================
Bill Russell      3rd     2nd       59-21*
Jerry West        5th     1st       42-38
Oscar Robertson   1st     1st       55-25
Wilt Chamberlain  2nd     1st       48-32
Bob Pettit        4th     1st       46-34

1965: Oscar 3rd, West 4th

This was reaching the period where every vote between Oscar and West was a razor thin margin. I don't see semi's stats review in that thread, but here is part of what I wrote in my rationale (note: the RPoY project was done in reverse chronological order, so you'll see me often say "again" in my discussion because I had said similar things in the 1966 thread, which I'll post my rationale for below):

"I need to take a hard look at West vs Oscar. Because once again, the Royals and the Lakers look like carbon-copy teams except that one played in an extremely weak conference and the other was in the same league with the 2 best teams (and players) in the league. That still isn't, of itself, a virtue that should go in an individual player's camp. And once again, by general comparison tools West and Oscar look extremely similar. In the regular season they finished next to each other by a razor-thin margin in the MVP vote and statistically were just as even. Their teams had almost identical records and SRS. Just no difference. And in the postseason...still, no difference that I can see. In the effort to keep the playing field level, this is what I've been able to gather about how West and Oscar played against the Celtics and Sixers respectively (2 best postseason teams, 2 best defenses):

West against Boston: 34 points per game (only stat I have for every game), one game with five boards and five assists, one game with 12 boards, and that he shot 18-for-52 (34%) from the field in the last two games of the series (thanks to Regul8tor's articles for those numbers).

Oscar against Philly: 28 points, 12 assists, 5 rebounds per game on 43% FG and 53% TS.

The curse of this project continues to be the loss of information through the years. But again, I still see nothing to conclude that West was suddenly a better player than Oscar in the postseason. With the variables that they can control, it seems to me that West vs Oscar in '65 looks exactly like it did in '66...essentially a tie. And just like in '66, my tie-breaker is that Oscar has to carry a larger offensive load than West does as both the primary point-scorer and almost exclusive offense initiator on his team. As such, Oscar wins my tiebreaker again."

1966: Oscar 3rd, West 4th

Here was my rationale, heavily emphasized by the news clippings that TheRegulator gathered:

"My 3rd/4th place will come down to West and Oscar. And once again, from what I can tell the difference between them is razor thin. In the regular season both averaged 31.3 ppg, were 2/3 overall in PER, and 2/3 overall in win shares. Both led their teams to 45 - 35 records in the regular season. But here is where their differing circumstances start to play in a bit. The Lakers' reward for their 45 - 35 finish was a first round bye and a second round matchup with the 36-win Hawks. The Royals' reward for their 45 - 35 finish was a first-round matchup against the 7-time defending champion Celtics. A bit of inequity there.

As such, I can't really give West much credit for his team making the Finals while Oscar's went out in round 1. That's just luck of the draw. Fortunately, the Lakers and Royals both faced a common opponent in the postseason to help make some direct comparison of how they performed possible. And again, from what I can tell, there was little-to-nothing to separate them as individuals or in team results. From reading the articles that ThaRegul8tor posted, I see that West averaged 33.1 points against the Celtics. We already knew that Oscar averaged 31.8 points, and because this was his only playoff round we also know he averaged 7.8 assists, 7.6 boards, and shot 41% from the field. As far as I know, we don't have any of that peripheral info for West against the Celtics. But from those articles, I do get the feeling that on a game-to-game basis West and Oscar ultimately performed at a similar level both to each other and to what we might have expected from them based upon their regular seasons and the caliber of their opponents. And both squads stretched the Celtics out to the maximum number of games before their teams fell in the deciding game.

It's just too close for me to call definitively, based upon what info seems to be available from the time. Which leaves tie-breakers. And while even those are close, I can't escape the notion that Oscar was relied upon more heavily to drive the Royals offense than West was to drive the Lakers. Their scoring loads were similar, but while West led the Lakers in assists he shared the distributing duties more equally with Baylor and Rahman while Oscar was just about the only offense generator for the Royals. Seems to me that let West be set up for some of his offense, let him attack from the wing on occasion, while Oscar was almost always the one setting up either himself or others. With this being the case, I don't see enough of a separation in scoring/efficiency or even perimeter defense for West to make up for Oscar carrying the heavier load for the team's dominant unit. The gap is thin, but it's all that I have to try to separate the two."

1967: I missed this vote, but in the overall project Oscar finished 2nd and West didn't rank at all. This was another of West's injury seasons, and was another comfortable win for Oscar.

1968: Oscar 4th, West not voted

Here are the stat summaries from semi-sentient:

* = led the league

Regular Season

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Player          GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST    PER    WS
==================================================================
Wilt            82   46.8*  24.3   .557   23.8*  8.6   24.7*  20.4*
Greer           82   39.8   24.1   .529    5.4   4.5   17.1   11.2
Wilkins         82   38.6   20.0   .525    5.3   8.3   19.0   10.1
Baylor          77   39.3   26.0   .505   12.2   4.6   21.0    8.0
West            51   37.6   26.3   .590*   5.8   6.1   23.2    9.6
Robertson       65   42.5   29.2*  .588    6.0   9.7*  24.6   12.3
Lucas           82   44.1   21.5   .565   19.0   3.1   19.8   10.1
Russell         78   37.9   12.5   .461   18.6   4.6   17.0    8.2
Havlicek        82   35.6   20.7   .486    6.7   4.7   17.7    7.6

Post Season

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Player          GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST    PER    WS
==================================================================
Wilt            13   48.5*  23.7   .511   24.7*  6.5   22.7    2.5
Greer           13   42.5   25.8   .512    6.1   4.2   17.6    1.7
Wilkins          6   39.5   18.3   .506    6.3   7.8*  16.8    0.5
Baylor          15   42.2   28.5   .503   14.5   4.0   23.0    1.9
West            15   41.5   30.8*  .596    5.4   5.5   25.1*   3.6*
Robertson       --------------------------------------------------
Lucas           --------------------------------------------------
Russell         19   45.7   14.4   .458   22.8   5.2   16.7    1.6
Havlicek        19   45.4   25.9   .521    8.6   7.5   19.9    2.8

Awards Recognition / Misc

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Player          MVP     All-NBA   Team Record
=============================================
Wilt            1st     1st       62-20
Greer           ---     ---       62-20
Wilkins         2nd     ---       56-26
Baylor          3rd     1st       52-30
West            ---     2nd       52-30
Robertson       5th     1st       39-43
Lucas           ---     1st       39-43
Russell         ---     2nd       54-28
Havlicek        ---     2nd       54-28

And here is part of my voting rationale: "I agree with those arguments that put Baylor as the Laker that season over West, and Hondo's postseason probably gets him in. Between Oscar and West, Oscar missed half as much time and his team cratered when he was out while the Lakers were still solid. I understand this, as it just shows that the Lakers were already a good team so I'm not penalizing West for his team being good...more, this suggests to me that we shouldn't penalize Oscar for his team not doing as much as West's since they were obviously a lot more reliant upon him."

1969: Oscar 2nd, West 3rd

This was another close vote, and could have gone either way. IIRC, most from the project put West over Oscar this season. For me, Wilt/West/Baylor kind of split the vote and I wasn't sure how to apportion credit for that Lakers team. In the vote I put West slightly above Wilt (which in hindsight I'm still not comfortable with) with Baylor as an HM, and Oscar snuck in at 2nd. Overall, though, as I mentioned it was a close vote.

Summary: So, from 1961 - 1969 I have Oscar over West all 9 seasons, 5 of which were comfortably clearly in Oscar's favor and 4 of which that were close margins that could have gone either way. After that season West had an excellent 1970 (won first in RPoY vote), Oscar edged West in the 1971 vote, and then West scraped a 5th place finish in 1972, then neither had another top-5 finish in the project as their careers wound down.

All told, it seems to me that Oscar and West were similar caliber players, but that in the years where there was separation it was much more often than not in Oscar's favor. West had a bit more team success, but he also had a better team, while Oscar was called upon to do more to carry his squad and, when given a championship caliber big, he turned himself into the perfect facilitator and helped lead that team to a championship. To me, it appears that Oscar is the solid choice over West in this project.

[lorak]

Looking at SRS Robertson was worth about 8 pts as he was the only main addition to 1971 team. Of course KAJ also developed from rookie year, so this have to be included.
Celtics with KG improved by ~13 pts, but there was also addition of another all time great player (Allen) and in 2007 Pierce missed a lot of games and Celtics tanked, so overall Robertson's and KG's impact seems to be very similar - all time great impressive.

Well, I just looked through the google archives and found out that Robertson had an eye injury in 1964. ("Oscar Robertson allpro guard of the Cincinnati Royals needed 10 stitches Sunday night to close up a wound in his left eye suffered during the Royals 114101 victory over the Detroit Pistons Robertson was jabbed in the eye..."). He missed the next 5 games

Small sample
Of course it's some kind of data and I'll not ignore it. But look, we have:
- big Bucks improvement with Robertson as only major change (impact comparable with KG's in 2008)
- 17 games with/without sample which also shows big Robertson's impact (+13.3)
- 13 games with/without sample under very bad circumstances - Bob Cousy; I would say judging Robertson based on this season is like judging Magic based on 1981 season (but still decent +5.7)
- 5 games with/without sample with very small impact (+0.5)

So even with that new information you added it still looks very good, for sure not worse than West impact (who also had one year with below +1, and on much bigger sample).

[mysticbb]

Small sample :)

For sure, it is a small sample. But it is not like he got no contribution from his teammates at all. And if we figure in SOS ...

- 13 games with/without sample under very bad circumstances - Bob Cousy; I would say judging Robertson based on this season is like judging Magic based on 1981 season (but still decent +5.7)

What exactly do you mean by this? Not quite sure I understand that correctly.

So even with that new information you added it still looks very good, for sure not worse than West impact (who also had one year with below +1, and on much bigger sample).

I agree somewhat, but the major difference is such numbers for West on a better team and Robertson on a weaker team. Where it seems like the tendency (also for Robertson), the better the team the harder it is to make a difference. We also have to see the real floor impact per minute. Robertson played a lot of minutes and his On/Off numbers might be not be much different from the calculated Net for the missed games vs. played games. But well, that would be rather an argument for Nowitzki also over West here.

[lorak]

- 13 games with/without sample under very bad circumstances - Bob Cousy; I would say judging Robertson based on this season is like judging Magic based on 1981 season (but still decent +5.7)

What exactly do you mean by this? Not quite sure I understand that correctly.

I mean that Robertson wasn't himself that season, so his impact that season wasn't like impact of "normal" Robertson. And the reason was Bob Cousy - off the court conflict with him but also on court, I mean he want to run different offense than the best possible (similar situation like with Porter and Nash) and the results were awful - by far the worst offensive team Robertson ever played (ortg below league average!).

I agree somewhat, but the major difference is such numbers for West on a better team and Robertson on a weaker team. Where it seems like the tendency (also for Robertson), the better the team the harder it is to make a difference.

True, but on the other hand for example people give West credit for all these finals appearances, or more team success in general (but would he have all these finals appearances if he played in Royals...?).
And Robertson also proved that he could have big impact on very good team (Bucks).

We also have to see the real floor impact per minute. Robertson played a lot of minutes and his On/Off numbers might be not be much different from the calculated Net for the missed games vs. played games. But well, that would be rather an argument for Nowitzki also over West here.

You know, I would have no problem with Dirk over West or Robertson But West over both of them? I watched games with West, analyzed his career and I don't see that he was so great like his reputation suggest. For me West is Kobe of his generation (both overrated, especially defensively) and Robertson like KG (both underrated because played on bad teams, but had great, bigger than West/KB, impact).

[Sedale Threatt]

To be fair to Malone, he played in an era of 2 all-NBA slots and 1 of them was always reserved for Kareem. Plus, he came out of high school so his early years weren't great.

Not only that, they didn't select a third-team until 88-89, Malone's 15th season. There are a lot of ways to measure guys, but I'm not sure All-NBA teams should be that high on the list. Valuable, but not the tie-breaker or anything.

I mean, Moses had 11 20/10 seasons, and another three where he was within a point. So that's 14 seasons where he averaged at least 18.8 points and 10.0 rebounds per game -- clearly All-NBA type stuff, even if he didn't earn the selection.

Besides, if actual selections deserve major weight, shouldn't they be trumped by Malone's three MVPs to Dirk's one? Or Pettit and West getting 10 first teams?

At any rate, I'm going with Moses here. An absolute bull -- one of the best rebounders ever, and a highly capable scorer who got to the line a ton. Carried a crap Houston team to the Finals, then pushed the perennially bridesmaid Sixers over the top to one of the most dominant seasons in NBA history, in an era dominated by great Lakers and Celtics teams. Wasn't a great defender, but probably better than most people give him credit for.

Vote: Moses
Nominate: Elgin Baylor

Also, sorry for the absence. I was on vacation, but I should have left a list. I'm going to be gone for another week or so here, so I will forward one to the proper authorities.

[RoyceDa59]

Vote: The Big O
Nomination: Steve Nash

[mysticbb]

I mean that Robertson wasn't himself that season, so his impact that season wasn't like impact of "normal" Robertson. And the reason was Bob Cousy - off the court conflict with him but also on court, I mean he want to run different offense than the best possible (similar situation like with Porter and Nash) and the results were awful - by far the worst offensive team Robertson ever played (ortg below league average!).

Steve Nash had still a big impact offensively in 2009, thus I can't quite follow your reasoning here. But thanks for your explanation anyway.

True, but on the other hand for example people give West credit for all these finals appearances, or more team success in general (but would he have all these finals appearances if he played in Royals...?).

I suspect West having a bigger impact on those Royals than Robertson, that's why I select West over Robertson. But I can understand the point you want to make.

And Robertson also proved that he could have big impact on very good team (Bucks).

I wouldn't take that as a proof here. The Bucks were a young team with not just Abdul-Jabbar improving, but also guys like Dandridge or Smith. That is much like the Thunder going from -6 in 2009 to +3.6 in 2010 without any major additions.

You know, I would have no problem with Dirk over West or Robertson ;) But West over both of them? I watched games with West, analyzed his career and I don't see that he was so great like his reputation suggest. For me West is Kobe of his generation (both overrated, especially defensively) and Robertson like KG (both underrated because played on bad teams, but had great, bigger than West/KB, impact).

I understand your feeling regarding Robertson, but I just can't agree. I don't see him in the same way as Garnett and the data doesn't support that either (not to the extend as the impact by Garnett).

[mysticbb]

Not only that, they didn't select a third-team until 88-89, Malone's 15th season. There are a lot of ways to measure guys, but I'm not sure All-NBA teams should be that high on the list. Valuable, but not the tie-breaker or anything.

There were also less teams with less players. The 15 players now selected are like 10 players selected with 23 teams. Thus it is not an argument against All-NBA selections at all.

I mean, Moses had 11 20/10 seasons, and another three where he was within a point. So that's 14 seasons where he averaged at least 18.8 points and 10.0 rebounds per game -- clearly All-NBA type stuff, even if he didn't earn the selection.

Did you figure in pace? Look at the pace adjusted numbers and you will find out that you don't have that many seasons by Moses Malone which can be labeled "All-NBA". He had those 8, the rest of the season he was WORSE than Nowitzki. Now we add the fact that Moses Malone became worse in the playoffs.

Besides, if actual selections deserve major weight, shouldn't they be trumped by Malone's three MVPs to Dirk's one? Or Pettit and West getting 10 first teams?

I judge the quality of their play and count the seasons as All-NBA seasons, if they fit. That has only slightly something to do with the actual All-NBA teams, otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense to select Garnett already, because officially he has only 9 All-NBA seasons.

[Sedale Threatt]

There were also less teams with less players. The 15 players now selected are like 10 players selected with 23 teams. Thus it is not an argument against All-NBA selections at all.

Excellent point. Even so, there were still more opportunities for Nowitzki to earn honors than Moses. I'm not going to hold it against him when he was still putting up quality seasons and missing out to guys like Kareem and prime Walton on the front end and Olajuwon and Ewing on the back end.

Did you figure in pace? Look at the pace adjusted numbers and you will find out that you don't have that many seasons by Moses Malone which can be labeled "All-NBA". He had those 8, the rest of the season he was WORSE than Nowitzki.

No I didn't. Frankly, I don't see how it matters considering Malone's contemporaries, the players he was competing for honors with, would have been playing under the same conditions.

Take, for example, the year he missed out to Kareem and Walton: 19 points, 15 boards, 21 PER. That's clearly an All-NBA quality season. It was just a numbers game. That would have been good enough to earn second-team honors in many recent seasons, including 02, when the second-team center was...Dirk Nowitzki???

It's the same with 86, when he put up similar numbers to 87, yet was not selected. How does one count as an All-NBA quality season, yet not the other?

Now we add the fact that Moses Malone became worse in the playoffs.

How do you figure this?

I judge the quality of their play and count the seasons as All-NBA seasons, if they fit. That has only slightly something to do with the actual All-NBA teams, otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense to select Garnett already, because officially he has only 9 All-NBA seasons.

So where do Malone's MVPs factor in? If you're willing to use All-NBA teams in Dirk's favor, actual or not, surely it's fair to use a substantially more important award in Malone's.