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Official Politics thread pt. 2

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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#141 » by Jmonty580 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:43 pm

funkatron101 wrote:The main fundamental difference between religion and science is that by design, science is in search of proof, whereas religion relies solely on faith.

Throughout history, religious leaders have attempted to answer questions that it had no authority to answer, with little to no references to back up their claims. The Scientific method changed that. It is one of the main reasons why so few accept literal interpretation of the bible today.

Science is not just an idea, or a feeling. It uses hard data to support it. Not only can we see genetic markers that support evolution, we have real life examples of adaptation, natural and artificial selection. I don't have to look any further than the farm that my wife's family owns to see it in action.

Science is on an unwavering quest for the truth, and it unlocks more and more every day. You speak of Muslims needing to get out of the 7th century and adapt with modern times, and yet you argue against science. why?

Instead of feeling threatened by science, religion should embrace it. Religion should be a spiritual path to enlightenment, not a way to answer everything about everything. To do as such is not a fair fight. It only has a few books that are thousands of years old, compared to the constantly growing and adapting field of science and technology. It's a battle that religion can't win.


Yes there is an element of faith but there is more than that. There is a supernatural element that someone who hasnt built a relationship with God through jesus cannot understand. The closest thing to that understanding are those who dabble in calling spirits and tracking ghosts. Whiles its not the same source its still a supernatural experience. Once you have this supernatural experience in recieving the holy spirit its not just a faith thing, you KNOW that God is real and you know that things he's done in the past were him and not just by chance or good luck. Thats hard for a non believe to understand but thats what it is.

And I have no problems with science, but where science and i go in different ways is when it pretains to something in the Bible. Bible says A science says B because of certain hard facts. 1000 yeras later science says we didnt know a few things so yea by the way, its A now. 500 years later, Guess what? C..... You see the problem? Science is only as good as the information provided to it. Often times we THINK we have all the information yet we only have bits and peices and we dont even truely understand the bits and peices we do have. I believe God reveals things to people as he see's fit, hence the advances in medicine and surgeries, but to put science over God? I cant do it, advances in science to ME are a direct result of God revealing what he wants revealed.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#142 » by funkatron101 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:24 pm

Jmonty580 wrote:Yes there is an element of faith but there is more than that. There is a supernatural element that someone who hasnt built a relationship with God through jesus cannot understand. The closest thing to that understanding are those who dabble in calling spirits and tracking ghosts. Whiles its not the same source its still a supernatural experience. Once you have this supernatural experience in recieving the holy spirit its not just a faith thing, you KNOW that God is real and you know that things he's done in the past were him and not just by chance or good luck. Thats hard for a non believe to understand but thats what it is.

And I have no problems with science, but where science and i go in different ways is when it pretains to something in the Bible. Bible says A science says B because of certain hard facts. 1000 yeras later science says we didnt know a few things so yea by the way, its A now. 500 years later, Guess what? C..... You see the problem? Science is only as good as the information provided to it. Often times we THINK we have all the information yet we only have bits and peices and we dont even truely understand the bits and peices we do have. I believe God reveals things to people as he see's fit, hence the advances in medicine and surgeries, but to put science over God? I cant do it, advances in science to ME are a direct result of God revealing what he wants revealed.

The issue you take with science is what makes it such a valuable tool. It's willingness to find the truth. As we grow, learn, and understand more about life and our universe, science adapts to it. If there is enough evidence to support a hypothesis, it gets adopted. It's not ashamed or embarrassed to be wrong, quite the opposite actually.

As far as I can tell, this does not happen with religion. Without science, we would still be claiming that the world is flat, there is nothing below the equator and we are the center of the universe.
Lattimer wrote:Cracks me up that people still think that Wiggins will be involved in the trade for Love. Wolves are out of their mind if they think they are getting Wiggins for Love.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#143 » by Jmonty580 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:32 pm

funkatron101 wrote:
Jmonty580 wrote:Yes there is an element of faith but there is more than that. There is a supernatural element that someone who hasnt built a relationship with God through jesus cannot understand. The closest thing to that understanding are those who dabble in calling spirits and tracking ghosts. Whiles its not the same source its still a supernatural experience. Once you have this supernatural experience in recieving the holy spirit its not just a faith thing, you KNOW that God is real and you know that things he's done in the past were him and not just by chance or good luck. Thats hard for a non believe to understand but thats what it is.

And I have no problems with science, but where science and i go in different ways is when it pretains to something in the Bible. Bible says A science says B because of certain hard facts. 1000 yeras later science says we didnt know a few things so yea by the way, its A now. 500 years later, Guess what? C..... You see the problem? Science is only as good as the information provided to it. Often times we THINK we have all the information yet we only have bits and peices and we dont even truely understand the bits and peices we do have. I believe God reveals things to people as he see's fit, hence the advances in medicine and surgeries, but to put science over God? I cant do it, advances in science to ME are a direct result of God revealing what he wants revealed.

The issue you take with science is what makes it such a valuable tool. It's willingness to find the truth. As we grow, learn, and understand more about life and our universe, science adapts to it. If there is enough evidence to support a hypothesis, it gets adopted. It's not ashamed or embarrassed to be wrong, quite the opposite actually.

As far as I can tell, this does not happen with religion. Without science, we would still be claiming that the world is flat, there is nothing below the equator and we are the center of the universe.



Your right, but at the same time it means there is never a real truth with science. Science is as good as the information provided to it. Today what science claims as fact is no longer tomorrow. So what was once a fact never was a in fact a fact. You see what I'm getting at? And that is good, but for people who want to use those facts that science present as concrete evidence for anything, you have to first understand your not standing on solid ground. Are things we dont know and dont understand yet and those things havent been taken into account.

Religion on the other hand gives us what we need to know through faith, doesnt address everything, but then again we dont neccessarily need to know everything either imo. Anyways, if God says the world is round its round. We dont need scientific studies to back it, it is because God says it is. He has more knowledge of these things because he is the creator of ALL. Thats what we believe, so thats good enough for us. You can say what you want based on science and all the facts can point to whatever but it doesnt matter. We believe Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead. We believe that mosses parted the red sea. We believe Jesus turn 6 jugs containing 180 gallons of water into fine wine. For people who truely believe those things, you think what science says makes a difference to us. Science today cant justify those things happening, and to today would claim they never did happen. When its science vs. bible and God? i've already taken a side.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#144 » by funkatron101 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:12 pm

So you prescribe to the literal interpretation of the bible?
Lattimer wrote:Cracks me up that people still think that Wiggins will be involved in the trade for Love. Wolves are out of their mind if they think they are getting Wiggins for Love.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#145 » by moocow007 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:15 pm

How does a politics thread turn into a religion thread?

That said...true faith doesn't need to rely on a religion, books, leaders and followers...
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#146 » by funkatron101 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:20 pm

moocow007 wrote:How does a politics thread turn into a religion thread?

When political unrest and violence is attributed to religious disputes. They are almost inseparable in the middle east.

Just be thankful that it is a civil and fairly friendly discussion. :)
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#147 » by moocow007 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:24 pm

funkatron101 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:How does a politics thread turn into a religion thread?

When political unrest and violence is attributed to religious disputes. They are almost inseparable in the middle east.

Just be thankful that it is a civil and fairly friendly discussion. :)


Yeah, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop though. :wink:
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#148 » by Jmonty580 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:47 pm

funkatron101 wrote:So you prescribe to the literal interpretation of the bible?


if your refering to the miracles that take place yup. Pentacost where people recieve the holy spirit and they speak foriegn langauges they never knew before, and people see tongues of flames yup. The guys being put in a furnace to burn and Jesus appearing in there with them and protecting them? Yup.

The bible tells you some stuff is a story and not to be taken litterally true (the parables Jesus speaks in), but the miracles actually did happen. You cant be a christian and not believe in the supernatural powers of God.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#149 » by funkatron101 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:13 pm

Jmonty580 wrote:
funkatron101 wrote:So you prescribe to the literal interpretation of the bible?


if your refering to the miracles that take place yup. Pentacost where people recieve the holy spirit and they speak foriegn langauges they never knew before, and people see tongues of flames yup. The guys being put in a furnace to burn and Jesus appearing in there with them and protecting them? Yup.

The bible tells you some stuff is a story and not to be taken litterally true (the parables Jesus speaks in), but the miracles actually did happen. You cant be a christian and not believe in the supernatural powers of God.

The conflict I have with many specific events (mainly pertaining to Jesus) is that they are often similar in stories that predate Jesus. Which leads me to a few conclusions:

1. The story of Jesus is essentially true, but it is much older than perceived, and the finer details have been tweaked and changed through folklore.

2. The story of Jesus is not true and was created by using other stories, such as Osiris, Dionysus, Mithras, Hercules, etc.

3. There was more than one son of god.
Lattimer wrote:Cracks me up that people still think that Wiggins will be involved in the trade for Love. Wolves are out of their mind if they think they are getting Wiggins for Love.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#150 » by mugzi » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:23 pm

CURL: Is Obama a pathological liar? {Duh}

ANALYSIS/OPINION:

“Mendacity is a system that we live in.”

- Brick, “Cat on a Hot Tin Roof”

In the weird world that is Washington, men and women say things daily, hourly, even minutely, that they know deep down are simply not true. Inside the Beltway, we all call those utterances “rhetoric.”

But across the rest of the country, plain ol’ folk call ‘em lies. Bald-faced (even bold-faced) lies. Those folks have a tried-and-true way of determining a lie: If you know what you’re saying is patently false, then it’s a lie. Simple.

And lately, the president has been lying so much that his pants could burst into flames at any moment.

His late-evening news conference Friday was a tour de force of flat-out, unadulterated mendacity — and we’ve gotten a first-hand insider’s view of the president’s long list of lies.

“I wanted to give you an update on the current situation around the debt ceiling,” Mr. Obama said at 6:06 p.m. OK, that wasn’t a lie — but just about everything he said after it was, and he knows it.

“I just got a call about a half-hour ago from Speaker [John A.] Boehner, who indicated that he was going to be walking away from the negotiations,” he said.

Not so: “The White House made offers during the negotiations,” said our insider, a person intimately involved in the negotiations, “and then backtracked on those offers after they got heat from Democrats on Capitol Hill. The White House, and its steadfast refusal to follow through on its rhetoric in terms of cutting spending and addressing entitlements, is the real reason that debt talks broke down.”

Mr. Boehner was more blunt in his own news conference: “The discussions we’ve had with the White House have broken down for two reasons. First, they insisted on raising taxes. … Secondly, they refused to get serious about cutting spending and making the tough choices that are facing our country on entitlement reform.”

But back to the lying liar and the lies he told Friday. “You had a bipartisan group of senators, including Republicans who are in leadership in the Senate, calling for what effectively was about $2 trillion above the Republican baseline that theyve been working off of. What we said was give us $1.2 trillion in additional revenues,” Mr. Obama said.

That, too, was a lie. “The White House had already agreed to a lower revenue number — to be generated through economic growth and a more efficient tax code — and then it tried to change the terms of the deal after taking heat from Democrats on Capitol Hill,” our insider said.

The negotiations just before breakdown called for $800 billion in new “revenues” (henceforth, we’ll call those “taxes”), but after the supposedly bipartisan plan came out — and bowing to the powerful liberal bloc on Capitol Hill — Mr. Obama demanded another $400 billion in new taxes: a 50 percent increase.

Mr. Boehner was blunt: “The White House moved the goalpost. There was an agreement, some additional revenues, until yesterday, when the president demanded $400 billion more, which was going to be nothing more than a tax increase on the American people.”

But Mr. Obama, with a straight face, continued. “We then offered an additional $650 billion in cuts to entitlement programs — Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security.”

The truth: “Actually, the White House was walking back its commitments on entitlement reforms, too. They kept saying they wanted to ‘go big.’ But their actions never matched their rhetoric,” the insider said.

Now, Mr. Boehner and the real leaders in Congress have taken back the process. He’ll write the bill and pass it along to the president, with this directive, which he reportedly said to Mr. Obama’s face in a short White House meeting Saturday: “Congress writes the laws and you get to decide what you want to sign.”

Watching the one-third-of-a-term-senator-turned-president negotiate brings to mind a child spinning yarns about just how the living room lamp got broken. Now, though, the grown-ups are in charge; the kids have been put to bed. Ten days ago, the president warned the speaker: “Dont call my bluff.”

Well, Mr. Boehner has. He’s holding all the cards — and he’s not bluffing.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#151 » by Jmonty580 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:36 pm

funkatron101 wrote:
Jmonty580 wrote:
funkatron101 wrote:So you prescribe to the literal interpretation of the bible?


if your refering to the miracles that take place yup. Pentacost where people recieve the holy spirit and they speak foriegn langauges they never knew before, and people see tongues of flames yup. The guys being put in a furnace to burn and Jesus appearing in there with them and protecting them? Yup.

The bible tells you some stuff is a story and not to be taken litterally true (the parables Jesus speaks in), but the miracles actually did happen. You cant be a christian and not believe in the supernatural powers of God.

The conflict I have with many specific events (mainly pertaining to Jesus) is that they are often similar in stories that predate Jesus. Which leads me to a few conclusions:

1. The story of Jesus is essentially true, but it is much older than perceived, and the finer details have been tweaked and changed through folklore.

2. The story of Jesus is not true and was created by using other stories, such as Osiris, Dionysus, Mithras, Hercules, etc.

3. There was more than one son of god.


Fair enough, i can understand why you'd have some of those questions. So much in the Bible just makes too much sense for me not to believe the stories though. Jesus was a real person, the question is if he was the son of God or not, hence the existence of the jewish religion. Believe what you will about the stories of Jesus, I believe them whole heartedly. Even without Jesus there are other miracles in the bible that even the jews believe. At the core most of these religions have the same basic beliefs but it goes astray around when Jesus came. either they believe in jesus but add an extra wrinkle, or they dont believe in jesus at all. Either way Jesus did something to get ALOT of attention, its hard to believe he got all that attention without doing any of the works the bible claims he did.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#152 » by funkatron101 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:26 pm

And as far as your belief based on your personal relationship, feeling of enlightenment, etc. I have no way to dispute it. I can't tap into you and how you feel.

Even if I can find scientific rationalizations to how and why you feel certain things, that doesn't make it any less real. Just as a Buddhist can be certain of his power of meditation.

I don't mean to insult you at all, or make light of the situation, but I fully believe in the power of the mind and its ability to interpret the unexplained. One concrete example I can share is back when I was a teenager and was using drugs (which I haven't touched in 16 years).

One specific time that I took acid with some friends, I went into a bathroom with the lights off. Unable to interpret my surroundings with my eyes, my mind (altered on acid) created a series of caves. Obviously there were no caves in the bathroom, but at the time, I could see the pathways, ridges and grooves. I could feel the textures. My mind created this, and now I can explain to you how and why it happened, but I assure you at the time it was very real to me. As real as anything else I have experienced. Which to an outsider sounds bat-sh** insane. That to me is the power of the mind.

This sole experience has formed most of my thoughts and opinions on the afterlife. Science can explain the feelings of weightlessness, the bright light, etc. upon death. As the brain deactivates, it struggles to interpret its surroundings. It fills in the blanks. Time and space become relative, a split second feels like an eternity (Ever have a seemingly long dream only to wake up, check the clock and see that only 15-20 minutes have passed since you last checked?). What is left as your functions fade is the reserves of your "heaven," afterlife, etc. It is an experience that is very real to you.

It could very well be by design (through a creator) or simply a coping mechanism. This experience could be accompanied by an actual transference of "spiritual energy" or it simply ends with the person never quite experiencing the feeling of "nothingness."

So in the end, I feel as long as we treat each other fairly, don't used our beliefs to oppress, belittle, or create fear, there is nothing wrong with creating our version of heaven.

Sorry for the long read.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#153 » by mugzi » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:00 pm

From Weiner to Wu, whose next? :lol:

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Rep. David Wu accused of unwanted sexual encounter
By Rachel Rose Hartman | The Ticket – 4 hrs ago

Wu (Don Ryan/AP)
A young woman this spring accused Rep. David Wu (D-Ore.) of an aggressive and unwanted sexual encounter, the Oregonian reported Friday. House leadership this weekend called for an ethics investigation into the embattled congressman's latest scandal. The married congressman, who admitted in February to receiving mental health treatment after reports of bizarre behavior, {Liberalism is a mental disorder} confirmed to staff that he had a sexual encounter with the daughter of a friend who is a longtime donor. Wu insisted, however, that the encounter was consensual.


The newspaper reports that Facebook indicates the young woman graduated high school in 2010 and registered to vote in August. Multiple news outlets identify the unnamed woman as a teenager. She reportedly left a voicemail at Wu's Portland office stating the accusation this spring. She did not call police.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi on Sunday evening called for the House Ethics Committee "to initiate an investigation into the allegations against Congressman Wu" following a conversation Pelosi reportedly had with Wu Saturday. :lol: The lawmaker who heads up Democrats' 2012 election efforts--Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) chairman Steve Israel--also called for an official ethics investigation. "New allegations of unacceptable behavior by Congressman Wu are extremely serious and disturbing," Israel said in a statement. "I strongly agree with Leader Pelosi's request that the House Ethics Committee use its authority to begin an immediate investigation."

Wu has so far firmly stressed that he does not intend to resign his seat, despite repeated calls for him to do so, amid the steady drumbeat of scandals since his re-election in November. But this is the first time House leadership has--in effect--publicly pressured the congressman to do so. Wu disclosed in July 2010 that he had stopped drinking. He was legally separated from his wife the following month. In February, The Oregonian reported that staff held an intervention for the congressman prior to the Nov. 2, 2010 election after he sent staff a photo of himself wearing a tiger costume, authored emails to staff as if they were written by his children, prompted public complaints after an angry speech to Democrats and campaigned at the airport. Earlier this year several staff, including his longtime chief of staff and his communications director left Wu's office. In March, it was revealed that Wu had totaled a car in 2010. He blamed lack of sleep.

Wu was accused of sexual assault by an ex-girlfriend while attending Stanford University in the 1970s, an incident the congressman publicly confirmed and apologized for in 2004 following news reports. The woman informed faculty at the time but declined to file criminal charges and did not file a formal complaint with the university. Multiple newspaper boards in Oregon have called for Wu's resignation as the negative reports have continued to mount. But Sunday marks the first time congressional leadership has put public pressure on Wu to leave Washington.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#154 » by Jmonty580 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:08 pm

lol no I dont mind that long read, interesting. I like to hear about how others minds work.

I'll just say this, i was as big a skeptic as they come many years ago, but at some point it was like a blind fold was taken off of my eyes and now I'm starting to see more clearly, i'm still growing in my faith. Anyways the bible says the same thing, it tells about how powerful the mind is. There is this thing thats called the secret on DVD. People watch it and try to manifest good things to happen in their lives...Its in the bible its no secret. The mind is extremely powerful it can do all kinds of things to you, thats extremely biblical. So what your explaining is exactly inline with what the bible says about the mind. Throughout the bible people are trying to make up things to explain the unexplained, and their mind allows them to believe in other "Gods" or play down amazing things that happen right before their eyes simply because they dont want to believe them (Jesus and his miracles). Sersiouly, its all in their.

I think there are things we just cant understand and never will and I'm find with that. For example, I've had an OBE before (out of body experience). Most would think i'm nuts for proclaiming that, but hey it happened. My brother is all about that stuff, he studies what he has to do to have one and has had a few, I never presued them yet I had one myself. My mom had one when giving birth to me. She said he was floating above her body looking down on them operating her. She nearly died because of complications during the birth. Was all of this just in the mind or did it really happen? I believe it really happened because it happened to me and I know what i experienced, it was surreal, and its happened to many other people. You wont believe though until it happens to you. Science would probably say that I had some sort of dream or something, people will say what they may but i know what happened. There are things we dont know about and cant explain... and that alone if fine with me. God has his knowledge and power is beyong our understanding imo.... And thats ok, I dont need to know it all.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#155 » by mugzi » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:40 pm

More laughs from the dummys. I think when hes unemployed in 2013, he should do standup comedy.

Obama Says FDR Was "Fiscally Conservative"
Brian Koenig ^ | 7/25/11 | Brian Koenig
Posted on Mon Jul 25 2011 12:41:18 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) by Freemarkets101

In response to a question regarding the poor state of the economy, President Obama asserted that FDR was "fiscally conservative" - you know, that executive powerhorse who, arguably, established the welfare state.

Whaa? Obama has made a bountiful share of asinine comments, but this one is beyond laughable. Quick note: FDR was the master inventor of the "New Deal," which uplifted a slew of new programs (at high price tags): the NIRA, the CCC, the TVA, the FDIC, the PWA, the NLRA, the WPA, the SSA, need I go further?

FDR is responsible for claiming a generous portion of the government program acronyms, which has made it difficult for later spendthrift presidents. Obama should be pissed.

Here are some of the President's comments:

Obama was referring to spending-cut measures Roosevelt took in the middle of the New Deal that lasted from 1933 to 1940.

“FDR comes in, he tries all these things with the New Deal; but FDR, contrary to myth, was pretty fiscally conservative,” the president said Friday during a town hall meeting on the campus of the University of Maryland.

“And so after the initial efforts of the New Deal and it looked like the economy was growing again, FDR then presented a very severe austerity budget,” Obama continued. “And suddenly, in 1937, the economy started going down again. And, ultimately, what really pulled America out of the Great Depression was World War II.”

Now we all know why Obama said what he did. First, he as always likened himself to FDR, so paying FDR a compliment is like paying himself a compliment.

His second reason was strategic, because saying FDR was "fiscally conservative" is saying that he himself is able to spend recklessly on New Deal-type programs while, at the same time, maintaining fiscal prudence. In political rhetoric land, it's a win-win.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#156 » by mugzi » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:48 pm

Nails this president perfectly. WHO HERE wants to refute anything this says? Id love to see that.


Our Ten-Trillion-Dollar Man
Pajamas Media ^ | July 24, 2011 | Victor Davis Hanson


Borrowing Is No Longer Stimulus?

The Congressional Budget Office not long ago forecast that Barack Obama’s $1 trillion-plus annual deficits — scheduled over the next decade — would result in almost another $10 trillion in aggregate debt. Going back to the pre-Bush tax rates this time won’t balance the budget. Slashing discretionary spending will not. So large has the splurge become, and so hooked are the constituencies of federal money, that massive cuts to entitlements necessary to stave off financial implosion may well prompt Greek-like protests.

That staggering sum was apparently conventional wisdom until the November 2010 election. But now there is fear that at some point in the future, Obama will not be known as the first African-American president. Nor will he be cited even as the hope-and-change phenomenon of 2008. Instead, posterity shall know him as the single greatest borrower in American presidential history, a novice who nearly wrecked the U.S. economy by borrowing over $4 billion a day without any feasible proposal how to pay back such a vast sum — taking a post-recession recovery and turning it into a stagflationary mess. In the third year of his tenure, Obama is still left only with “Bush did it” as an explanation of what went wrong.

Obama has managed the nearly impossible: the greatest peacetime deficits in U.S. history — about $1.5 trillion per year — in his first three years achieved almost no economic expansion. Instead, unemployment is chronic and stays over 9.2%; growth is stagnant; gas is sky-high — and the president seems stunned that none of what he had promised came to pass. All his liberal nostrums have been tried and been found wanting. There is no successful EU model, no winning blue-state statist paradigm for guidance.

Remember that his key advisors — Goolsbee, Orszag, Romer, Summers — have now quit and did not last even three years, their policies orphaned by the very parents who spawned them. Even the president joked that “shovel-ready” was a joke. When he evokes “stimulus” and “investment,” in response, we do not even think “borrowing” and “taxes,” but rather “he’s clueless again.” The old argument that we simply did not borrow enough (say, $5, $6, $7 billion a day?) is laughable beyond the point of caricature, given that the administration followed the Bush record of record peacetime debt. The only mystery is whether the massive Obama borrowing was a product of incompetence, a poorly thought out gorge the beast way of increasing taxes and redistributing income, or a more cynical effort at creating a permanent constituency of millions of new food stamp recipients and federal workers. Or more than that still.

Your Debt And None Of Our Own

Obama himself recently proposed a massive deficit budget that not a single Democrat in the Senate could vote for; then suddenly he flipped, and said that red ink of the sort that he ran up was now unsustainable. When did the president of the United States metamorphosize from the greatest Keynesian in presidential history to a fiscal hawk — January? March? April 1?

As he calls for higher taxes, he still has not offered any plan whatsoever that details where the president himself would cut. Remember that he conceded in December that higher taxes were bad; but by July they were then good again. He courts Wall Street one day for campaign money, yet on another calls them “fat cat” bankers and deplores their jets. Food stamps recipients now number 50 million — and we dare not imagine that even one has taken a dime without good cause.

The would-be employer is told to hire, but on what confident supposition, what rationale? That he knows well the tax rate to come, the health care costs to come, the regulations to come, the pro-business, veteran CEO appointee to come, the next presidential slur to come? Apparently Obama believed that capitalists were so greedy, so wealthy, so money-hungry that they would not mind much the redistributive obstacles he erected.

He talks grandly of getting America back to work, as his subordinates try to close down a Boeing aircraft plant, layer more regulations and burdens on energy production, reverse the order of creditors in the Chrysler mess, and take over GM — even as he continues the old “spread the wealth” and “redistributive change” adolescent rants with newer, sillier faculty lounge concoctions, claiming that at some point we have made enough money and that he himself has hundreds of thousands of dollars in income that he does not need and thus should have higher taxes on. (If so, please, help the Treasury out by offering to pay the gas for the Costa del Sol, Vail, and Martha’s Vineyard first-family freebies). One expects such banalities from the college dorm lounge, but not the middle-aged president of the United States.

Carter 2.0

Abroad the misdirection, confusion, and petulance mirror-image the debt mess. In Libya we have no mission aim, no methodology, and no desired outcome — our consolation only that Libya is a tiny country compared to a nearly 30-million person Afghanistan or Iraq. Obama went to the Arab League and the UN, but not the U.S. Congress for authorization — but to do what? Help the rebels? Enforce a no-fly-zone? Kill Gaddafi? Overthrow the government? All, some, or none?

All such mission objectives have come and gone. Now Italy has joined Germany and half of NATO in opposing the effort — apparently on the logic that either Obama will eventually give up on an oil-rich Gaddafi, or that he should, given the bleak replacement prospects. France, which cooked up the campaign, is fence-sitting. Is this the new multilateral “leading from behind”? The only reason I can think why we bombed Gaddafi, and then allowed him to survive, is that we ourselves are terrified of the possible end-game and aftermath, given that we have little idea of who the rebels are, and even less whether they would be better, the same, or worse than the horrific status quo. If and when they storm Tripoli, expect a pogrom against any sub-Saharan African in Gaddafi’s pay, or, rather, any sub-Saharan African in general still in Libya.

The uncertainty in Libya is like that in Afghanistan, which the president once praised as the good war, then failed to meet his commanders for months, then escalated, then suddenly decided to start pulling out in fears of reelection in 2012, even as he appointed his fourth ground commander in less than three years. All that was sort of like pontificating that drilling new oil does not lower gas prices, but pumping previously drilled oil out of the strategic petroleum reserve apparently might in time before November 2012. Or was it similar to praising campaign finance reform, then being the first president to reject it? Or was it analogous to blasting Goldman Sachs and BP after hitting them up for cash and becoming their most favored recipient?

Bush Obama Did It.

Remember the Obama 2007-8 demagoguery on the war on terror? We live now in Lala land where the bad Bush’s Guantanamo, Predators, renditions, tribunals, preventative detention, Iraq, Afghanistan, wiretaps, and intercepts have become the good Obama’s protocols. We, the public, are supposed to nod and in Orwellian fashion get with the new Ministry of Information line, screaming at Bush on the big screen as the bad becomes good, the old good bad.

Remember the Cairo mythological speech, the falsehoods about an Islamic-enhanced Enlightenment and Renaissance, a multicultural Cordoba (with few Muslims in the late 15th century?) being an Islamic beacon of tolerance during the Inquisition? Remember the administration commentary on the underwear bomber, on Maj. Hasan, on the Ground Zero mosque, on trying KSM in New York? The al Arabiya interview, the sermons to Israel, the bowing to Saudi royals?

Juxtapose all that with the Obama’s administration outlawing of “jihadist,” of “terrorism,” of “Islamist.” His team instead gave us “overseas contingency operations” and “man-caused disasters,” seemed to think that the Muslim Brotherhood is secular, and proclaimed that Israel — not Hamas, not Hezbollah, not Iran, not Syria (recall Assad the “reformer”) — is the problem in the Middle East.

Obama Is Obama

So we have what we have always had — the most partisan and the least experienced man in the U.S. Senate as president, elected by a perfect storm of events (e.g., the 2008 meltdown, the media adulation, the anemic McCain candidacy, the furor over Bush and the Iraq war, the orphaned election without a single incumbent, etc.), in which no one was allowed to ask “Who is this stranger?” and “What has he ever done?”, in which the media finally gave up its last shred of impartiality and became a megaphone, as we were assured that Mr. Obama’s most intimate associates were really total strangers, his once praised avid church-going was merely sporadic, his most partisan voting record was in truth bipartisan, and his bad habits of saying disturbing things were simply a symptom of racialist, raise-the-bar nitpicking on behalf of his Neanderthal critics.

In short, Obama came into office with all the Carteresque assumptions on how to take over a private-sector economy and outsource foreign policy to international bodies. He now finds to his utter amazement — as Carter discovered in late 1979 after Teheran, Afghanistan, and Central America — that in the real world none of what worked in word worked in deed. Those who assured Obama that his Harvard lounge fantasies were real have either quit, are now offering new advice, or are criticizing him for once taking them at their word.

So what is he left with? Not much other than hoping that all the ten-trillion-dollar man’s printed money finally starts inflation to coincide with the 2012 election. Otherwise, we get only the same-old, same-old: blame Bush for the deficit each week; or a slur about starving granny with Social Security cuts; or a speech from an African-American congresswoman from the floor of the House attesting to the racism behind doubting Obama can do the job. Nothing much more than that.

The Wages of the 1960s

Obama, you see, is our nemesis. He is a totem, the logical manifestation of a warped media, the reification of some crazy — and arrogant — ideas about redistributive politics, the statist economy, and cultural and social life that permeated American life the last forty years. He is the president with a 1,000 faces that we have all seen at work, on TV, throughout American life, and at some point the odds determined that we had to have a rendezvous with him— perhaps a catharsis to teach us the wages of Keynesian debt, of a social policy contrary to human nature with its equality of result doctrines, of an all-powerful, all-growing unaccountable government, of the now hip ambiguity about past American protocols and history. Obama is the exaggeration of all the dubious ideas that arose since the 1960s — brought to fruition on his watch, delivered by mellifluous cadences by an untouchable persona.

In fact, a Barack Obama was long overdue. Had he not appeared out of nowhere in 2008, we would have surely had to invent him.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#157 » by mugzi » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:02 pm

Lets keep the foot on the neck of the fascist left shall we....

Won't One Brave Conservative Call for the Rich to Chip In?
Illinois Review ^ | July 25, 2011 A.D. | John F. Di Leo


Barack Hussein Obama and his administration have called for the rich to contribute their fair share, in this and every crisis.

Whether we speak of the debt ceiling or the annual deficit, the problem of rising unemployment or that of sinking consumer confidence, the Administration’s mantra is the same: "The rich" must kick in their fair share.

How they define the rich is another matter. In one conversation, it’s those with incomes above $250,000/year, or perhaps $200,000, or perhaps $150,000. In another context, it’s those who own jets, or who have access to corporate jets, or perhaps who have heard of corporate jets… the definitions change like the wind, more to meet the needs of the argument of the day than to establish any clear meaning for a useful debate.

To keep it simple, perhaps we should define the rich the way the Left really means it: it's everybody who makes a little more money than we do. That way, it’s a moving target: it might be the guy across the street today… but if we get a raise to match his salary tomorrow, then “the rich” magically becomes someone who makes at least a little bit more than that.

Just so long as our neighbor earns more than we do. “The rich” is always “him,” never “us.”

What Can The Rich Do To Chip In?

This is the great question, isn’t it? “The rich” is such a broad group, ranging from millionaires and billionaires, down to our next door neighbor the dry cleaner, the accountant, or the corporate middle manager who earns so much more than we do (or our jealous souls think he does, anyway). So let’s see what that group can do for the economy, to help chip in, as the president says.

When the rich own or run businesses, they can hire more employees to help improve the unemployment statistics… …if the government doesn’t take that potential salary money away from them through increased taxes.

When the rich own or run businesses, they can buy more things – office supplies, raw materials for manufacturing their finished goods, etc. – helping their vendors employ others, making taxable profits and taxable sales for those vendors… …if the government doesn’t take that purchasing money away from them through increased taxes.

Whether the rich own or run businesses themselves or not, they can spend their money on buying things at retail – clothing, books, furniture, knick-knacks for the house – employing the clerks at the struggling stores, staving off increased vacancy rates at the malls for another month, or week, or day… …if the government doesn’t take that purchasing money away from them through increased taxes.

The rich can spend their money on entertainment – whether on local restaurants, comedy clubs, and live theater, or on those far away, by adding vacations in New York, Chicago, the Dells, Branson, Miami, or the dozens of other famous tourism magnets across the country. …if, that is, the government doesn’t take that money away from them through increased taxes, which, as always, hurts not only the directly taxed individuals, but also all the people, groups, businesses, and communities that depend on that entertainment spending for their very livelihoods.

If the rich are business owners, they can hire contractors to renovate or otherwise improve their offices or factories – and whether they’re business owners or not, they can do the same to their homes, adding additions, or decks, or finishing basements or attics, or remodeling the bathroom – all of which employs not only the construction or remodeling firms doing the work, it also employs the people who work for their materials vendors, the manufacturers of paint, cabinetry, flooring, drywall, sinks and faucets, and so many other housing-sector industries… …if, that is, the government doesn’t take that money away from them by raising their taxes.

The rich might also be inclined to donate some money to charity. By every study, the American people are the most generous on earth with their personal funds. They might donate to a veterans’ hospital, a food pantry, a church or school, a research laboratory for cancer or AIDS or MS, a battered women’s shelter or group home for the mentally ill. Not only do they have the personal inclination to do so, as generous Americans, but the tax code encourages such donations through the tax-deductibility of charitable contributions. …Unless, of course, the government takes that money away from them by raising their taxes, or makes the donations cost them more rather than less, by removing or reducing the tax deductibility that has long contributed to American charitable generosity.

The rich might be inclined to just save that money for an uncertain future, putting it in the bank, which helps the banks loan money to investors, to people refinancing their homes, to businesses embarking on expansions. Our economy depends on the rich and their savings, more now than ever before, as the government has recently increased the amount of reserves that banks must have on hand to loan money; the best risks out there sometimes can’t get a loan nowadays, because the reserve formulas have been amended upward as part of the “financial reforms” of this administration. The rich would love to put more of their money in banks… …if the Fed didn’t cause the interest on savings accounts to be lower than the inflation rate… and if the government doesn’t take that money away from them in increased taxes.

So many options…

There are so many things the rich can do with their money. They can spend it, they can invest it, they can save it. They can hire others directly, or, through their own self-interested purchases and investments, they can enable others to hire people or otherwise benefit the public. And in all of this, no matter what the rich do, the government does get a secondary benefit, one step later.

State and local governments get revenue from sales taxes at the shops, the theaters, the home improvement stores. They get revenue from property taxes and income taxes on those properties, those businesses, and their employees. Every government depends on economic activity – on every sale, every investment, every employment, every raise, every success.

So why is it that whenever things get a little tight, the American Left’s first, last, and biggest proposal is always to increase tax rates, to remove deductions, to reduce the pool of money in the hands of those who have it, so that all these sources, and therefore their resulting revenue streams, dry up?

When taxes are already on the wrong side of the Laffer Curve (that is, when tax rates are already past the point of diminishing returns, as we know the American tax burden most certainly is at present), every tax increase, whether through rate increases or through the removal of deductions and credits (which the American Left usually describes as “loopholes” nowadays), depletes that pool and hurts everyone.

Increased tax rates and diminished deductions do not one thing, but many: They reduce the stream of funds into government at every level. They further increase unemployment, further weaken every sector from wholesale to retail, from discretionary to mandatory. Increased tax rates and diminished deductions make it harder, not easier, for government to do what it must: raise revenue to make good on its commitments, service the debt, promote the general welfare.

So… which side supports further contribution by the rich?

The Capitalist economic system – as designed by geniuses from Adam Smith in Scotland to Alexander Hamilton in New York, as intellectually developed and explained by economists from von Mises in Austria to Friedman, Williams, Sowell and Laffer over here in the States – brilliantly enables every single transaction to support both the private and public sectors.

Every purchase and every sale helps vendor and consumer alike, and every participant up and down the supply chain… and helps government at every level as well, through reasonable taxation on the profits of those transactions.

But every penny the government takes away from those private sector economic actors – rich or poor, corporate or individual – obviously diminishes the activity they can perform. Take away another 5% of their funds in lost deductions or higher tax rates, and you eliminate another 5% of their activity. Take away another 10%, and it’s another 10% that you’ve killed. Take another 15%, and you’ve crippled the economy by 15% more.

What’s our unemployment rate? Our effective, real inflation rate? Our savings and investment rates, these days? Those five, or ten, or fifteen percent of the funds of America’s “rich” could really help us out, if “the rich” were free to dispense them as they choose. Instead, the administration and its Pelosireidian leadership in Congress are determined to take that money out of the mix, leaving ever less in place to work the magic of capitalism.

In the American economy, every single transaction is a force multiplier. The more activity there is, the more the economy grows. Good for people, good for businesses, good for government.

But just as surely, every single reduction in the money that these economic actors have at their disposal is a force depressor. Every time government shrinks the amount of money they have at their disposal, they reduce the transactions upon which real people depend for their livelihoods, depressing not only the business’ operating revenue, but depressing the economy as a whole, reducing the tax receipts upon which government depends.

In short, when the Democrats call for “a balanced plan” between spending cuts and tax hikes, they are working against their own stated interests, because such tax rate increases and deduction reductions can only further reduce the eventual government revenues that the Left claims to be focused on increasing.

And yes, after two hundred years of history and plenty of experiments on all sides, everybody knows it.

So who is it that really supports the idea of “the rich” chipping in to “contribute their fair share?” It’s always been the Right. Only the conservatives have been focused on tax rate reductions that grow the economy and thereby enable the economic participation of the wealthy to be ever more beneficial to both society as a whole and the government coffers as well.

The American Left doesn’t really want “the rich” to contribute more. If they did, they would be calling for tax rate cuts, not tax rate hikes and the elimination of deductions. No, the American Left isn’t about fiscal discipline or growth, they’re about control, and punishment, and envy, and destruction.

The Conservatives recognize and support the contributions of the rich to our economy, and advocate programs to enable every seed of wealth to germinate and work its magic. Only the Right knows that the solution to our nation’s problems is for government to get out of the way and allow our mighty private sector to work its magic, unfettered by the red tape of government agencies, unbled by the bloodletters of greedy taxing bodies from sea to shining sea.

You want the rich to chip in, President Obama? You really want the rich to contribute their fair share, Minority Leader Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid? Well, that’s not hard.

As John Galt would say, “Just get out of the way!”

Copyright 2011 John F. Di Leo

John F. Di Leo is a Chicago-based Customs broker and international trade lecturer. He may not be rich, but he knows he never got a job from a poor person, and that nobody wins when you kill the goose that lays the golden egg, as the Pelosireidian Left has been striving daily to do, ever since they took power.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#158 » by Bigmo5246 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:39 pm

mugzi wrote:
Bigmo5246 wrote:You guys gotta all let this thing go. Me and mugzi share completely different views, but we wont keep arguing over it. nobody is really getting anywhere with these arguments :lol:


Care to explain to me how you think the president is doing a good job?

Libya?

Rising food and commodity prices?

Oil prices? Off shore and domestic exploration?

DISMANTLING NASA and killing thousands of jobs in the process?

Unemployment?

The stimulus- aka porkulus?

Operation Fast and Furious?

Healthcare Bill?

THE ECONOMY????


Because Id love to here ANYONE, ANYONE defend this man on these issues. Wingo, CGC, You, Duetta, seren, Queen of Troy, Hutnik, Nutty Nats fan, anyone.

But they won't because they can't.


I don't see how what I said has any relation to how the president is doing, but I'll tell you how I feel.

Personally, I am not a big fan of Obama. I get that he made history and is a great inspirational figure and what not, but I do somewhat agree with you that he has not done a great job during his presidency. However, I will cut him some slack because to be completely honest, there really isn't too much he can do. He took over this country when it was at a really bad point and was only getting worse. I am not sure if you were a Bush supporter, but I put a lot of the blame on that bumbling idiot we once called our president.

My point is, no other president would have been able to help this country. People get on Obama all the time especially since he is black (not referring to you directly mugz). If it was any other president, people would have said the same thing I just said, but since it's Obama, he is all of a sudden a terrible person. But it really doesn't matter, I don't think he will be re elected anyway (although Bin Laden's murder definitely won him a lot of votes)
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#159 » by ComboGuardCity » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:02 pm

Obama will be re-elected. By now, there usually is a strong GOP candidate being groomed for the election. Mitt Romney is the closest thing to that and I don't see him winning over the casual American. I would REALLY love to see a Romney/Paul ticket. That would really intriguing.
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Re: Official Politics thread pt. 2 

Post#160 » by GONYK » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:07 pm

Mugzi, how do you feel about corporations outsourcing jobs internationally while cutting jobs domestically? Would you be opposed to limiting that behavior?

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