Official Politics thread pt. 2

[mugzi]

Its not a typo when two times now you didnt bother reading a post correctly or didnt understand it. Like I said intellectually lazy.

Damon, Damon, Damon.

[ewingxmanstarks]

The media is not reporting the biggest news of the year.

Obama and the democrats have agreed to take revenue off the table, and agreed to 2.7 trillion in spending cuts. The only concession made by the GOP is extending the ceiling past 2012.

Let's put that in perspective....All this talk about America can't afford to give breaks to millionaires and billionaires, at the expense of some kid that wants to go to college...I didn't subscribe to this argument, but many did.

He told us he will fight for american, and that he had principals...He lectured about how everyone needs to stop worrying about elections, and do what's right for the country.

In the end he didn't fight for democrats, he showed his principles don't matter in the most important debate on country has dealt with, since he came to power....He choose the best chance to keep his job over everything else.

He wanted this to not affect the 2012 election...There's no other reason why he wouldn't accept a more attractive (from a liberal perspective) short term hike in the ceiling.

The average time for a hike to expire is 7 months, the bipartisan senate plan asks for 6 months, Obama refuses to work with any extension under almost 2 years past the election.

All the reasons given for how bad for the economy a short extension is, are bold faced lies...The bond markets, even now with no extension isn't showing any sign of panic, the stock market is marching to 13,000....

He lied to everyone....this lie should not be defended, because its indefensible.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryaEdfpF5Yc&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

http://domadefenseofmarriageact.com/2011/07/25/debt-ceiling-harry-reids-no-tax-increase-with-equal-spending-cuts/

[Bigmo5246]

at what this thread is becoming

[Jmonty580]

Yea lets continue to leave all the money in the hands of these big businesses. They have obviously shown in recent years that they arent just greedy to make the rich richer with layoffs and forloughs and bonus checks. They'll be responsible and it will all trickle down to the everyday hard working man. Yup that sounds like a good plan.

[ewingxmanstarks]

^i don't understand...We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world...do you want corporations to pay higher taxes?

[Jmonty580]

^i don't understand...We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world...do you want corporations to pay higher taxes?

Does that take into account the huge tax cuts? Even if it does, the money will just be poured into the execs salaries, making the rich richer... and the poor poorer because there is less money to be earned out there. And since we dont want to tax the rich extra (kinda like the NBA taxes luxury tax to the teams with big bucks to spend) then we all just suffer at their expense. Thats how i see it. I have more sympathy on those who dont have than those who have and hoard ( what they've so rightfully earned through i guess. note: those outrageuous salaries cant even be earned).

[ewingxmanstarks]

Ok, its a different argument then corporate taxes.

I don't think the GOP's position on taxes is due to lack of empathy for the poor, but at is core, they believe a less authoritarian tax system makes for better (not to be confused with perfect) results across the board for everyone...Now you may not agree, and that's your right, I'm just providing the other side.

The truth is like in every liberal conservative debate is the absolute truth is somewhere in the middle, I believe that it slants further right more often than not.

At some point government taxing is counter productive, but not always...I feel in this day and age with us having the highest taxes to GDP ratio since WWII, imo we don't need more taxes, we need a better economy and less spending.

[mugzi]

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can't pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that 'the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better." --From Sen. Obama's Floor Speech, March 20, 2006
At the time, Senator Obama was urging Congress not to tolerate an increase that would bring the debt ceiling to $9 trillion.



Under President Obama, the debt ceiling has been raised to $14.3 trillion. Even without counting most unfunded liabilities, the national debt is now calculated to be nearing $14.1 trillion.

It increases about $4.22 billion per day (each citizen's share stands at roughly $45K). Thus, Democrats will soon demand that the debt ceiling be raised, lest the sky fall. When they do, they will be asking for a significant boost in a ceiling that is already 60 percent higher than the one Barack Obama said was "a sign of leadership failure" five years ago.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/25 ... rew-c-mcca

Hairy Reid on raising the debt ceiling on 2006:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELkbDdPeL7I

"If my Republican friends believe that increasing our debt by almost $800 billion today and more than $3 trillion over the last five years is the right thing to do, they should be upfront about it. They should explain why they think more debt is good for the economy. How can the Republican majority in this Congress explain to their constituents that trillions of dollars in new debt is good for our economy? How can they explain that they think it's fair to force our children, our grandchildren, our great grandchildren to finance this debt through higher taxes. That’s what it will have to be. Why is it right to increase our nation’s dependence on foreign creditors?"



Obama skips debt commission meeting (Dec. 2010)

WASHINGTON (CNN) - President Obama did not attend a White House meeting Thursday with members of his own debt commission, irking some of the Democrats on the panel who were expecting a high-level push from the commander-in-chief to show that its comprehensive deficit reduction plan is being taken seriously by the White House. "He should have at least dropped by," one Democratic member of the debt commission told CNN, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he wanted to speak more freely about the panel's private meeting.

http://whitehouse.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12 ... n-meeting/

Yeah, he cares about defaulting on the debt.

[mugzi]

Move along folks, witness tampering is not a felony. Yep.

I wish I could make this stuff up. But when you have a manifestation of everything thats wrong with this country and its politics in office, this is what you get. Corruption and more corruption.

The Washington Times)By Stephen Dinan and Chuck Neubauer

“At the end of the day, the president’s not going to be impeached over either of those two offenses” — Darrell E. Issa, Chairman of House Oversight and Government Reform Committee


The Obama administration sought to intimidate witnesses into not testifying to Congress on Tuesday about whether ATF knowingly allowed weapons, including assault rifles, to be “walked” into Mexico, the chairman of a House committee investigating the program said in an interview Monday.

House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell E. Issa, California Republican, said at least two scheduled witnesses expected to be asked about a controversial weapons investigation known as “Fast and Furious”received warning letters from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to limit their testimony.

Mr. Issa's committee is set to hear testimony from six current or former ATF employees, including agents and attaches assigned to the bureau’s offices in Mexico, about the operation — in which, federal agents say, they were told to stand down and watch as guns flowed from U.S. dealers in Arizona to violent criminals and drug cartels in Mexico.

The six-term lawmaker aired his concerns about the program in a wide-ranging interview with reporters and editors at The Washington Times on Monday.

Among other questions, the agents are likely to be asked about a large volume of guns showing up in Mexico that were traced back to the Fast and Furious program; whether ATF officials in that country expressed concerns about the weapons to agency officials in the U.S., only to be brushed aside; and whether ATF officials in Arizona denied ATF personnel in Mexico access to information about the operation.

Nearly 50 weapons linked to the Fast and Furious program have been recovered to date in Mexico. Committee investigators said Mexican authorities also were denied information about the operation.
Mr. Issa also said he is certain the Fast and Furious operation was known by most top officials at the Justice Department and that Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. either knew and misled Congress, or was so out of the loop that he’s guilty of mismanagement.

“How is it that the No. 2, 3, 4 at Justice all knew about this program, but the No. 1 didn’t?,” Mr. Issa said. “Is it because he said ‘don’t tell me’? Is it because they knew what they were doing is wrong, and they were protecting their boss? Or is it that Eric Holder is just so disconnected … ?
“Whichever it is — he knew and he’s lied to Congress, or he didn’t know, and he’s so detached that he wasn’t doing his job — that really probably is for the administration to make a decision on, sooner not later,” Mr. Issa said.

Those scheduled to testify are William McMahon, ATF deputy assistant director for field operations in Phoenix and Mexico; William Newell, former ATF special agent in charge at the Phoenix field division; Carlos Canino, ATF acting attache to Mexico; Darren Gil, former ATF attache to Mexico; Jose Wall, ATF senior agent in Tijuana, Mexico; and Lorren Leadmon, ATF intelligence operations specialist.
But after receiving subpoenas, at least two of the agents got letters from ATF Associate Chief Counsel Barry S. Orlow warning them to keep certain areas off-limits, including those still under investigation. Neither of the targeted agents was identified.

Mr. Issa said at least one witness wanted to back out of testifying to his committee after receiving the letter, but the chairman declined that request. Instead he fired a letter back to William J. Hoover, deputy director of ATF, saying the “timing and content of this letter strongly suggest that ATF is obstructing and interfering with the congressional investigation.”

ATF, in a statement, said letters sent to agents subpoenaed to testify before Congress are “essentially the same as the standard document provided to ATF witnesses subpoenaed to testify in court.” It said the witnesses are “encouraged to answer fully and candidly all questions concerning matters within his personal knowledge,” but provide “guidance” about revealing statutorily prohibited information.

Mr. Orlow did not return messages left on his office and cell phones.

The Fast and Furious operation was halted in January after U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry was killed in a Dec. 15 shootout with Mexican bandits 10 miles north of the U.S.-Mexico border near Rio Rico, Ariz. Authorities said two AK-47 assault rifles found at the scene were traced back to Fast and Furious “straw buyers.”

Mr. Issa said the ATF operation showed a “callous disregard for what those weapons can and have done to Mexican citizens and even to one, perhaps two U.S. citizens and probably more before it is over.” His comment referred to new information that another weapon found at the scene of the ambush killing Feb. 15 of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Agent Jaime Zapata also was traced back to a straw buyer.

President Obama and Mr. Holder have both disavowed the program, and Mr. Holder said it was running without their approval.

Told of Mr. Issa’s concerns, Justice Department spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler referred questions about the attorney general’s knowledge back to remarks in March when he said he referred concerns raised by ATF agents to the department’s Office of Inspector General, who is conducting an investigation.

When ATF field agents first began to question the Fast and Furious program, they received an email from their supervisor, David J. Voth, who wrote, “We all need to get along and realize that we have a mission to accomplish.” In a March 12, 2010, email, Mr. Voth said he was “thrilled and proud” his group was involved and assured the agents that “people of rank and authority at HQ are paying close attention. “It may sound cheesy, but we are the tip of the ATF spear when it comes to Southwest border firearms trafficking. I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors or other adolescent behavior,” he wrote. “If you don’t think this is fun, you’re in the wrong line of work — period.

“This is the pinnacle of domestic U.S. law enforcement techniques. After this, the toolbox is empty,” he said. “Maybe the Maricopa County Jail is hiring detention officers, and you can get paid $30,000 (instead of $100,000) to serve lunch to inmates all day.”

[ewingxmanstarks]

^Well, I think we have to pay our debt, but I agree if we are going to raise the celing, we should have serious cuts with it.

If we do default, I don't believe it will be the apocalypse, it may even be Y2K, but we will loose our AAA rating, and pension funds, hedge funds, and mutual funds may have to liquidated U.S. out of their portfolio's...rates would then go surely higher with the demand shift, causing potential for more defaults , and putting more of a burden on our future generations in paying of the debt.

Right now we borrow .42cents for every dollar we spend, which is a ridicules problem, that's why we need to stop spending, but the reason we need to raise the celling is to pay for what we have already spent.

[ewingxmanstarks]

^wrong place for post, my bad

[HarthorneWingo]

^i don't understand...We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world...do you want corporations to pay higher taxes?

How is then that GE and Exxon don't pay ANY taxes? Is that because the corporate tax rate is too high?

[ewingxmanstarks]

Subsides and loopholes, which I agree we should get rid of.

Take away subsides, loopholes, and lower rates, so the U.S. Government can stop picking winners and losers.

Its not fair for a company like UPS to pay 33% in taxes, while having to compete with the U.S. Post office- which doesn't care about making a profit, doesn't pay rent, or taxes while a Company like GE, which gets a huge amount of government contracts as is, pays no tax to the government

[HarthorneWingo]

Subsides and loopholes, which I agree we should get rid of.

Take away subsides, loopholes, and lower rates, so the U.S. Government can stop picking winners and losers.

Its not fair for a company like UPS to pay 33% in taxes, while having to compete with the U.S. Post office- which doesn't care about making a profit, doesn't pay rent, or taxes while a Company like GE, which gets a huge amount of government contracts as is, pays no tax to the government

"Fair"? I didn't know that there was "fair" in business. I thought it was all about the free market. If the USPS can provide the same service at a lower cost compared to UPS or Fed Ex, then to the victor goes the spoils, no?

[HarthorneWingo]

By the way, The Boehner debt ceiling/deficit reduction Plan has been analyzed by Wall Street. The verdict is that it will in a downgrade in our AAA credit rating.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/2 ... 09276.html

[mugzi]

Subsides and loopholes, which I agree we should get rid of.

Take away subsides, loopholes, and lower rates, so the U.S. Government can stop picking winners and losers.

Its not fair for a company like UPS to pay 33% in taxes, while having to compete with the U.S. Post office- which doesn't care about making a profit, doesn't pay rent, or taxes while a Company like GE, which gets a huge amount of government contracts as is, pays no tax to the government

"Fair"? I didn't know that there was "fair" in business. I thought it was all about the free market. If the USPS can provide the same service at a lower cost compared to UPS or Fed Ex, then to the victor goes the spoils, no?

You really have no concept of business.

The USPS is a failing business model. Case in point they lose over 6 billion dollars a year and have just announced they are closing 3653 offices.

Last time I checked Fedex and UPS operate in the black unlike the USPS, which is subsidized by the taxpayer.

So why are the spoils going to a failing entity thats unnecessary anymore in the age of email and the private sector which does their job more efficiently?


Government Unemployment Watch: USPS To Close Up To 3,700 Post Offices
Zero hedge ^ | 07/26/2011 | Tyler Durden


The problem with bloated central planning is that when austerity hits, the bloat goes away, and millions of government employees suddenly find themselves trying to enter the private sector, realizing they have absolutely no real competitive and marketable skills (more or less like investment bankers and hedge fund managers). And while America has yet to even remotely sniff austerity, the unemployment rate is already set to spike, after the USPS just announced it was preparing to close 3,653 out of its 32,000 total post office sites.

Per UPI: "The U.S. Postal Service is expected to announce a plan to close 3,653 post offices, mostly in small communities, in a cost-cutting measure, officials said. A USPS spokeswoman said the post offices were chosen because they get the "least amount of foot traffic and retail sales," The Wall Street Journal reported Monday." Trust the bureaucrats to try spinning this bad news as good: "They also were selected because there may be local businesses that could provide some postal services to the community, spokeswoman Sue Brennan said."

[mugzi]

By the way, The Boehner debt ceiling/deficit reduction Plan has been analyzed by Wall Street. The verdict is that it will in a downgrade in our AAA credit rating.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/2 ... 09276.html

The GOP wont pass Rino Boners plan. And Im glad. Reid's planned with 1 trillion in phantom savings from ending war operations wont avert a downgrade either but you didnt want to mention that did you? {partisan hack cough cough}

[ewingxmanstarks]

I'm not against having the US Post office, but its not fair that UPS has to pay taxes, when GE doesn't.

The U.S. Post office btw is an example of how government can't run businesses...they pay no overhead, and don't need to be competitive yet they are on the verge of bankruptcy.

Speaking of government not doing a good job at runing business, it was reported last week that Chrysler lost the U.S. Tax payer a net of 1.2 billion dollars.

[mugzi]

Im completely against the post office. Their business model is obsolete, unprofitable and its merely another govt agency used to cyphon off funds from taxpayers to people that are largely lazy and inept and cant make it in the real world.

Ive been in post offices all over the country and they're all the same. Indifferent employees who are slow, with attitudes acting like they're doing you a favor.

We dont need the post office anymore and within 20 years it'll cease to exist.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Are these fools going to get a deal done? Time to sell what I have in the market?? This has a small chance of being a catastrophe.

Boehner's plan sounds like crap that won't solve anything. Things could get worse even with his plan. His plan involves playing dangerous games and wants to play more games during election time. Pure politics.

Reid's plan isn't solving much, but it seems obviously better to me and will do a better job of avoiding catastrophe.