RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

[Laimbeer]

I think Kareem's too low, Russell's too high, Kobe's too high, and Karl's too low.

I don't think it's really a newsflash that every single person in the project is going to disagree about some of the rankings. Is there much of a point is stressing it?

If you're asking if we should express disagreement, that's pretty much what this forum is about, isn't it?

[Gongxi]

Hey, first of all, calm down. Number two, the threads themselves are large disagreements, aren't they? I just don't see the usefulness of everyone rattling off what rankings they disagreed with in this thread, as the project continues. Do you? What is the utility of that, can you share? Please, be calm, though.

[Baller 24]

Curious what happened to GilmoreFan and Warspite? Or is that a MYOB?

Rules. They both violated them and they were not only against what I indicated in the OP of every thread, but they went against TOS violations that PenBeasts watches for this board.

[Fencer reregistered]

I have a concern other than "People disagree with me for bad reasons." Namely, it seems as if the nomination process is breaking down, with votes being splintered. It's a process formally just like the real vote, only with somewhat less discussion or need to come to consensus.

I'm also unsure how to vote now that the rules seem to be changing in unknown ways. E.g., I've been trying to keep a positional balance of guys on the nomination list. That makes sense if there are 10. Now that the list is shrinking, it may not. What will the list shrink to?

[Laimbeer]

Hey, first of all, calm down. Number two, the threads themselves are large disagreements, aren't they? I just don't see the usefulness of everyone rattling off what rankings they disagreed with in this thread, as the project continues. Do you? What is the utility of that, can you share? Please, be calm, though.

Calm down is my line. But in answer to your question, there's no utility to anything we do in this forum. It's entertainment.

[Gongxi]

So none. Alright, cool.

[Fade-away]

So Garnett at 13 then, can't understand that people rate him and his career higher then West, Oscar, Pettit, Moses Malone, he's borderline top 20 imo, great player but not that great.

I'd like to see your arguments for him being borderline top 20, lol?

I think 13ish is right for him. He's been underrated his whole career and ironically it took him playing worse on a better team for people to actually realize how freaklishy good he was during his time with the Timberwolves.

in my opinion the 4 players (and maybe even Barkley, Baylor, Havlicek) i mentioned just had a better career and achieved more, if those players are put before him he would be around 16-20 which to me seems about right

[Dezmondballins3]

What's this notion that we HAVE to follow the older lists? The criteria is kind of a blend of both the '06 & '08 lists. In 3 years, opinions have changed, players have grown, and from everything that's been given in terms of explanations, objective evidence, and statistical indications, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with having both this high.

We're less focused on team success and more focused on how an individual played the game of basketball. Team success has a lot more keys than just forecasting it around one significant player, rather it's more of a blend of role players, key plays, and clutch buckets many different individuals. It's either many aren't understanding the criteria that's listed, OR are solely not wanting to go in and understand with an open mind.

no one said anything about the other list we just have an opinion.

[NO-KG-AI]

^^

Or maybe they just disagree? I didn't go off on the people that voted for KG or Karl, just stating the opinion they are too high, and I'm not alone.

Honestly, given the company of the complainers, that's not really something I'd be bragging about.

[Doormatt]

lol

[Doormatt]

oh wait, im not supposed to give one line responses anymore right?......

anyway, regardless of the rankings, the most useful thing about this project is the knowledge/opinions posters have shared about players i havent seen, or given insight to players ive watched sparingly. i definitely gained a greater respect for Hakeem, and think much more highly of him after reading the 7/8/9 threads where he was discussed. same goes for Karl. since joining this forum my opinion of a guy like Russell has changed drastically, and this project has broadened my view of him even more. so theres that...

honestly, i dont give a **** where these guys get ranked. i just want to see posters argue the true merits of great players in comparison of other all time greats.

[Laimbeer]

^^

Or maybe they just disagree? I didn't go off on the people that voted for KG or Karl, just stating the opinion they are too high, and I'm not alone.

Honestly, given the company of the complainers, that's not really something I'd be bragging about.

Not sure why it's such a problem to disagree with the list? It's not some absolute truth. It will be talked about for a while, which is the kind of thing this forum is about.

[Laimbeer]

oh wait, im not supposed to give one line responses anymore right?......

anyway, regardless of the rankings, the most useful thing about this project is the knowledge/opinions posters have shared about players i havent seen, or given insight to players ive watched sparingly. i definitely gained a greater respect for Hakeem, and think much more highly of him after reading the 7/8/9 threads where he was discussed. same goes for Karl. since joining this forum my opinion of a guy like Russell has changed drastically, and this project has broadened my view of him even more. so theres that...

honestly, i dont give a **** where these guys get ranked. i just want to see posters argue the true merits of great players in comparison of other all time greats.

The posts have reinforced my opinion of Oscar as a great player, after I had come to question it in recent months. I also am pretty comfortable putting Karl in front of KG now, wasn't always. But the pair are both too high.

[JerkyWay]

I'd like to vote, is that still such possibility?
I'm not a troll, I promise.

I'm really surprised Jerry West still didn't get enough love. Kobe went 10th and I don't see any differences between them. If so, West should have gone 11th. Rings aren't really that important for me in such voting. If so, where does Sam Jones rank with his 10 rings or does it favor Havlicek over some SFs like Barry, LeBron or Baylor?

[Laimbeer]

I'd like to vote, is that still such possibility?
I'm not a troll, I promise.

I'm really surprised Jerry West still didn't get enough love. Kobe went 10th and I don't see any differences between them. If so, West should have gone 11th. Rings aren't really that important for me in such voting. If so, where does Sam Jones rank with his 10 rings or does it favor Havlicek over some SFs like Barry, LeBron or Baylor?

I think anyone can post IIRC.

[penbeast0]

Jerky, you can apply to join the panel. With only 31 posts, you probably won't get in right away but if you keep posting real posts (not just votes) to where Baller or I can evaluate your style, we'll invite you to join. From what I've seen so far, you seem intelligent, just not enough of a body of work yet.

[JerkyWay]

Thanks man. Not a big deal, really.

[ElGee]

Wanted to inject this into the main thread: http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9840

It's a pretty cool (although mostly limited in scope to box scores) WAR method. Plenty to discuss, but note the gap between Karl Malone and the field for their career value. (Obviously this overstates it a little because Malone never missed RS games while stars who missed 25 could still go in the PS).

As you can see, Malone is nearly 100 points ahead of No. 3, Hakeem Olajuwon. That's roughly the value of Paul Pierce's BEST SIX YEARS in this system.

The next thing to note is the 6-year consecutive prime of LeBron James. Again, this is not a definitive statement about player quality/worth, but to point out to people who really don't realize how many great seasons he's *already* had relative to the remaining players on our list. That's why I'm pretty comfortable with an easy James vote at 15. (Hard for me to twist up a Jerry West argument, but at least that's within reason bc of the era difference.)

[pancakes3]

Seems like the people that get the most angry about KG being placed high, are the ones that are most likely to disregard research and go into "well I think" or "the wolves weren't that bad, just because" type of arguments, and crap all over the impressive amount of research and number crunching guys like ElGee, drza, Doctor MJ, and MysticBB do.

shrug. KG at 13 just seems wrong to me especially when the only argument of merit is based on APM - the same stat that said KG was not in the top 10 in APM during his 3 lost years, led Pierce in APM on the C's by 0.8, lost out to Allen the next two years, and this past season Allen went from +9 to -4 with no visible change in role or production.

bonus cherrypicked APM factoid: in '06, KG finished 2nd in APM to Marco Jaric, and had a lower APM than Kobe (or brian cardinal for that matter).

[Dr Positivity]

The only blip on the list so far to me is Karl being that high. IMO.