RealGM Top 100 List #16

[penbeast0]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:
Elgin Baylor

* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 11× All-Star
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1959)
* Rookie of the Year (1959)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1977
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Rick Barry

* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* 5× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 4× All-ABA 1st Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 12× All-Star (8 NBA, 4 ABA)
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Walt Frazier

* NBA Champion (1970, 1973)
* 4× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 7x 1st Team All-Defense
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1975)
* 7× All-Star
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Dwyane Wade

NBA Champion (2006)
7x NBA All-Star
2x All-NBA First Team
3 All-NBA Second Team
1x All-NBA Third Team
3x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
2010 All-Star Game MVP
2006 NBA Finals MVP

Bob Pettit

NBA Champion (1958)
2× NBA MVP (1956, 1959)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1956, 1958–1959, 1962)
11× NBA All-Star (1955–1965)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1955)
10× All-NBA First Team (1955–1964)
All-NBA Second Team (1965)
2× NBA Scoring Champion (1957, 1959)
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

David Robinson

2× NBA Champion (1999,2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
4x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-NBA 1st Team
NBA DPOY (1992)
4x NBA All-Defense 1st Team
4x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
NBA ROY (1990)
10x All-Star

Dirk Nowitzki

# NBA MVP (2007)
# NBA Champion (2011)
# NBA Finals MVP (2011)
# 4x All-NBA 1st Team
# 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
# 2x All-NBA 3rd Team
# 10x NBA All-Star

Charles Barkley

# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006

LeBron James

# 2x NBA MVP (2009-2010)
# 5x All-NBA First Team Selection (2006-2011)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2005-2006)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2009-2011)
# Rookie of the Year (2004)
# 7x All-Star
# 2xNBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)

Moses Malone

* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)

[penbeast0]

Doctor MJ, from a list he sent:

VOTE: Moses Malone

Nominate: Steve Nash

[penbeast0]

For the vote, I was tentatively leaning to Moses Malone but recent posts have made me wonder. LeBron is the clear best player of his day despite his recent playoff failures, Moses was only that for a short couple of years. For now, I will lean to LeBron though, obviously, I am open to be repersuaded.

As for the nomination, at center I still favor Artis Gilmore over Patrick Ewing by a little though Dwight Howard is intriguing. Artis was the more efficient scorer though less volume, the better rebounder, and in my mind the better defender. Someone in another thread attacked him as not making a big difference on the teams he joined but when he joined a talented Kentucky team they went from 44 wins to 68, a difference of 24 wins and from a defensive rating of 9/11 to one of 2nd/11 in the league despite losing previous year starters Darrel Carrier and Goose Ligon to injury. When he joined Chicago in the merger, they went from 24 wins to 44 wins (playoffs) and from 9/18 defensively to 2nd/22 despite losing starters Tom Boerwinkle and All-Def/All-Star Bob Love to career ending injuries.

This is despite the coach making him tied for 4th among the 5 starters in fga shooting less than the appreciably less efficient Mickey Johnson, Wilbur Holland, and Scott May who were the remaining starters other than aging PG Norm Van Lier. Adding no-D gunners like Orlando Woolridge and Reggie Theus in later years continued this trend . . . and Artis was a shy guy who wouldn't complain or demand the ball (his greatest weakness). Just to compare, When Ewing was drafted by the Knicks they went from 24 wins to 23 though he played only 50 games. The next year he played 63 and they won . . . 24.


Pippen v. Havlicek is the main forward matchup. I was leaning to Pippen until I started writing a post comparing them.

Scoring: For their careers Havlicek scored more (20.8 to 16.1 or, using per 36 which is more accurate, 20.4 to 16.6). However, Havlicek played in a faster paced system and although TrueLAFan has posted pretty convincing data in the Statistical Analysis board to indicate that stars tend to get their points regardless of pace, that implies that the 2-12 guys on the roster don't. So, not having cumulative pace, I will take a median pace for each career as a rough estimate. Boston games in 1970 averaged 115.9pts (and the Russell years were known for the Celtics high pace as Russell's outlet passing pushed the fast break); Chicago games in 1995 averaged 106.9pts. Adjusting Chicago's pace up to Boston's still gives Pippen only 17.5ppg so Havlicek still scores more.

Efficiency: Looking at true shooting percentages, Pippen averages .536 for his career while Havlicek is only at .492. However, in Havlicek's era the efficiency numbers were lower without the 3 point line and other rule changes opening up the offenses. The NBA in 1995 had an efg of .500 and Pippen's career ftm is 2.7/36 as he shoots less FT at a lower percentage than Havlicek. The NBA in 1970 had an average efg of .460 and Hondo's career ftm is 4.2/36, over 1.5XPippen's. This is calculated into ts% but listed because B-R.com only shows leaguewide efg -- again, these are just rough comps to see if the two players are in the same ballpark or significantly apart. So, adjusting the ts% for era bias, Havlicek's ts% for comparisom sake adjusts up to .535 or almost equal to Pippen's. (I admit to being surprised!)

Defense: Both were considered outstanding defenders. Pippen was on the all defense team 8x1st, 2x2nd, Havlicek 5x1st, 3x2nd (they didn't have the All-Def team for the early part of his career).

Rebounding: Pippen is at 6.6 reb/36 for his career, Havlicek at 6.2 reb/36 -- and this while Havlicek played in a higher paced lower efficiency era with more rebounds available. Clear edge Pippen

Playmaking: Pippen is at 5.2 ast/36 for his career, Havlicek at 4.8. While Pippen is more famous for being a distributor and played in the slower paced era, assists were appreciably less frequent in the 60s before the rules were changed and Havlicek played off the ball more. If anything, the edge goes to Havlicek here (again, surprising me).

I had thought that Pippen scored less but rebounded and assisted more with greater efficiency -- it seems closer than that with Havlicek roughly even on efficiency and playmaking. So, it comes down to Havlicek's greater scoring v. Pippen's rebounding. To my surprise, instead of creating an argument for Pippen, I think Havlicek's career is actually the more impressive looking back statistically.


Clyde Drexler is the greatest SG left, Gary Payton the greatest PG (GOAT defense, very good scoring and playmaking, mentally tough guy). Not sure who I would take between the two, probably Payton for the defense.

Between Gilmore, Havlicek, and Payton. I would take Gilmore if I were starting a franchise. Until recent rule changes, there were few players with the impact of a great 2-way center; even Havlicek's peak years he was behind teammate Dave Cowens in MVP voting.


For now:

VOTE: LeBron James

NOMINATE: Artis Gilmore

[Dr Positivity]

Lebron vs Moses for me.

I feel like prime Lebron is the clear better player 95% of the time. Just on a different level offensively due to consistent volume, efficiency, playmaking and I feel he has a much higher defensive impact. He has greater results

OTOH, it's hard to ignore that Lebron just had his Moses 83 move... and while Moses brought it to Kareem and everyone else on the way to the title, Lebron turtled. I think the 83 Sixers were easily better than the 11 Heat though due to the depth and guys like Jones and Cheeks

Still, Lebron has had great playoff years like 06, 07, 08, 09 which helps make up for it. I'm going with the better player but it's close

Vote: Lebron James

Nominate: Patrick Ewing

He's been my pick here since the vote Pettit got in on, started to go away from him last time to support a player with a chance, but I think Ewing will get some support here

[ThaRegul8r]

Vote: Moses Malone

[Gongxi]

Well, last thread I "voted" for LeBron almost by default. I was still on the fence but leaning towards LeBron and my vote got counted that way. No one's fault but my own, and it's not like it changed anything anyway, but I wasn't totally sold on him over Moses. I was over West, but not over Moses. So I'm in the same boat. I'd be interested in hearing some Moses arguments (aside from the non-compelling MVP and FMVP in the same year thing), before I officially go LeBron, though.

For the nomination, I'm back to primarily considering Ewing, although Gilmore, Pippen, and Nash could register, though.

That said, I'm not totally sure that Nash is my next best PG anyway, and I'm not totally sure I'd want a Pippen over a Drexler. Ewing still seems to trump all of them, though. Hmmm...

[ElGee]

vote: LeBron
nominate: Steve Nash

[Black Feet]

Vote - Moses Malone
Nominate - John Stockton

[ElGee]

And to the person who asked about Barkley last thread, all the with/withouts I have: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731&p=28653541#p28653541

[penbeast0]

Any of the Ewing fans care to explain in just how he is better than Artis who not only is bigger, stronger, and more efficient but has a Playoff MVP and a ring?

Career
Ewing (17 years) 34.3min 9.8reb 1.9ast 2.4bl 22.1pts on .504fg% .740ft% .553ts%
Gilmore (17 years) 35.5min 12.2reb 2.3ast 2.4bl 18.8pts on .584fg% .698ft% .623ts%

Playoffs
Ewing (139g) 37.5min 10.3reb 2.0ast 2.2bl 20.3pts on .469fg% .718ft% .517ts%
Gilmore (100g) 36.3min 12.7reb 2.3ast 17.7pts on .561fg% .688ft% .602ts%

As you can see, statistically they are pretty close except for one glaring area . . . shooting efficiency where Ewing was not outstanding for a center but Gilmore is the second most efficient scorer in NBA history (the MOST efficient if you take out the ABA numbers, his efficiency went up after his knee injury as he played closer to the basket). Then add the finals MVP and ABA ring which tip the scale just a little more for Artis as his playoff numbers increase this efficiency difference. Unless you feel the league was not reasonably comparable, Gilmore was the better player.

[mysticbb]

And to the person who asked about Barkley last thread, all the with/withouts I have: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731&p=28653541#p28653541

Why didn't you add the 4 games James missed in 2007? ;)


To point something about Moses Malone out here again, we can look at the numbers with and without some players during the 1977/78 season.

At the start of the season Calvin Murpgy missed 6 games, the Rockets were a -9.08 SRS team during those 6 games. In the other 17 games with Tomjanovic still playing the Rockets were +3.36 SRS. Now, all know the game against the Lakers in which Washington punched Tomjanovic. Until that game the Rockets were at +0.12 SRS, during the 23 games Tomjanovic played. Then we have 36 games in which Murphy and Moses Malone played without Tomjanovic and the Rockets were a -4.02 SRS team. The last part are the 23 missed games by Moses Malone, in which the Rockets were a -7.48 SRS team. So, we have now a couple of parts with Murphy making a difference of 12.44, Tomjanovic 4.22 and Moses Malone 3.46.

And I still don't get how someone can vote LeBron James over Dirk Nowitzki. It is either pure ignorance or no clue.


Vote: Dirk Nowitzki

Nomination: Steve Nash

[Wavy Q]

Vote: Barkley

Nominate: Stockton

i think i've been overrating Pippen

[mysticbb]

As you can see, statistically they are pretty close except for one glaring area . . . shooting efficiency where Ewing was not outstanding for a center but Gilmore is the second most efficient scorer in NBA history (the MOST efficient if you take out the ABA numbers, his efficiency went up after his knee injury as he played closer to the basket).

BUT Ewing was also way less turnover prone than Gilmore, which compensates for a bit for the difference in scoring efficiency. Not making a shot gives still the opportunity to rebound the ball and keep the possessions, while turning the ball over is a lost possession. There is also the evidence that Ewing anchored one of the best defensive squads in the history of the NBA. There is a good argument for him being a great defensive anchor, better than Gilmore in that aspect.

[therealbig3]

Vote: Moses Malone
Nomination: Scottie Pippen

[ronnymac2]

LBJ, Moses, and Dirk are my top candidates, with Charles having a shot as well.

I was gonna put down a prelim vote for James, but then Mystic said it'd be ignorant. I dunno what to do now....

How the hell somebody can nominate Stockton right now, I'll never know.

Ewing is superior to Gilmore. Artis was raw and mechanical early in his career, and he was raw and mechanical late. He had 2009 Dwight's post game his whole career. Horrible passer, too. He's a great center and everything, but I'd prefer Ewing's offense.

The nomination comes down to Ewing, Nash, Drexler and maybe Isiah. Really leaning towards Ewing right now. Ewing's definitely in front.

[therealbig3]

LBJ, Moses, and Dirk are my top candidates, with Charles having a shot as well.

I was gonna put down a prelim vote for James, but then Mystic said it'd be ignorant. I dunno what to do now....

How the hell somebody can nominate Stockton right now, I'll never know.

Ewing is superior to Gilmore. Artis was raw and mechanical early in his career, and he was raw and mechanical late. He had 2009 Dwight's post game his whole career. Horrible passer, too. He's a great center and everything, but I'd prefer Ewing's offense.

The nomination comes down to Ewing, Nash, Drexler and maybe Isiah. Really leaning towards Ewing right now. Ewing's definitely in front.

No Pippen? I think he definitely belongs in the discussion if those guys are the candidates.

[mysticbb]

I was gonna put down a prelim vote for James, but then Mystic said it'd be ignorant. :cry: I dunno what to do now....

My point is that I haven't read anything about why Nowitzki is so much worse than James that the 4 years of difference in longevity doesn't matter. And I really think it comes down to ignorance and preconception. It seems like there is no interest in understanding how Nowitzki impacts the game, the numbers supporting that are rather dismissed in Nowitzki's case, while they can easily be accepted for Garnett, because it is defense. It reminds me rather of "What is not allowed to be, does not happen!" than a rational thought process.

[ronnymac2]

LBJ, Moses, and Dirk are my top candidates, with Charles having a shot as well.

I was gonna put down a prelim vote for James, but then Mystic said it'd be ignorant. I dunno what to do now....

How the hell somebody can nominate Stockton right now, I'll never know.

Ewing is superior to Gilmore. Artis was raw and mechanical early in his career, and he was raw and mechanical late. He had 2009 Dwight's post game his whole career. Horrible passer, too. He's a great center and everything, but I'd prefer Ewing's offense.

The nomination comes down to Ewing, Nash, Drexler and maybe Isiah. Really leaning towards Ewing right now. Ewing's definitely in front.

No Pippen? I think he definitely belongs in the discussion if those guys are the candidates.

Meh, yeah I guess. There's nothing to go to the well with though. I really like Scottie, but his offense is weaker compared to the rest of the guys, and although he's the GOAT perimeter defender, he still isn't as good as a dominant defensive C.

Take Scottie vs. Drexler. Latter-prime Clyde won a title with a GOAT-peak player and a good supporting cast, which is essentially what Scottie did six times. Drexler basically proved he could do what Scottie did. Drexler also led his team to two finals while being a great offensive player- better than Scottie ever was.

I feel like that proves that Drexler could have equaled Scottie in team success, which is Scottie's greatest argument over Clyde. Drexler is the better player in just about any scenario- best player, second best player, etc. There isn't a good reason for me to take Scottie here.

He's a reasonable choice. I mean, like I said, GOAT perimeter defender with insane versatility and great team success...that's a great player. I've got players ahead of him right now though.

[ronnymac2]

I was gonna put down a prelim vote for James, but then Mystic said it'd be ignorant. I dunno what to do now....

My point is that I haven't read anything about why Nowitzki is so much worse than James that the 4 years of difference in longevity doesn't matter. And I really think it comes down to ignorance and preconception. It seems like there is no interest in understanding how Nowitzki impacts the game, the numbers supporting that are rather dismissed in Nowitzki's case, while they can easily be accepted for Garnett, because it is defense. It reminds me rather of "What is not allowed to be, does not happen!" than a rational thought process.

Haha Yeah, I know. I was joking. I honestly don't know who to go with right now. I'd like to read some more arguments.

[Fencer reregistered]

Moses actually won, you know, a championship. And he generally accomplished a lot more than LeBron has to this point. So I'm going with Moses for the vote.

I do not want to say Barry and Baylor on the nominee list without Havlicek and Pippen also being there. Based on the early votes, I'll nominate Pippen. But we've got to get Havlicek on too, who did after all win the greatest number of nomination votes several rounds ago.