As of now - Dwight Howard or Dave Cowens?

[JerkyWay]

Some may call me crazy for making this thread, but I actually think Cowens impact was far greater than numbers he produced would suggest. His intangibles were as elite as it's possible. Excellent defender and rebounder, but he's not the first option on offense. Very good passer, though. He has lots in common with Bill Russell.

While I can agree that Kareem was robbed of 73' MVP, Cowens was an elite player for 5 years or so. Kareem was just far and away the best player in the league during his tenure with the Bucks.

[Laimbeer]

I hated Big Red then, but appreciate him now. He's one of realgm's most underrated, and I'd probably have him over Dwight for the titles.

[penbeast0]

Cowens was a warrior and a winner, but Dwight is just more dominant. I'd go with Howard . . . question, where would you slot Zo in with this pair?

[JerkyWay]

I'm leaning more towards Cowens, but only if I already have good first option on offense. Dwight is a black hole on offense what makes him ineffective sometimes...
Better player? Dwight by a slim margin. Way more capable scorer, that's it. Cowens had that 15 to 18 footer, but he was inefficient with it. If Dwight gets the ball down-low, it's over more often than not.

[Dr Positivity]

Howard because his ability is just higher. But I'm not positive about it. Cowens played with a fervish that Howard is missing, especially last season (which on paper was his best, but was in my opinion his worst of the last handful of years)

[ahonui06]

Cowens is a winner and lead Boston to a title.

If Dwight wins a title he will surpass Cowens.

[penbeast0]

It's basically Shaq v. Zo before 2000 . . . you want to take Zo because he represents all the hustle and effort that you want in a player, but you have to go with Shaq, he's just too big and too physical for his peers to handle.

[pancakes3]

i think dwight's better than 'zo right now, and cowens was a good bit more skilled than 'zo. cowens could make outlet passes, find cutters, and even go coast-to-coast on occasion.

[GilmoreFan]

The remarks being made to this point are sig worthy.

Cowens was never as valuable or as good as Dwight. I find it comical that Penbeast is always trying to revise players FG% upwards on the basis of the league average, and yet he puts so much value on Cowen's rebounding and scoring numbers, which are heavily pace affected, and are much less impressive relative to the league average than Dwight's are.

Cowens per 36 numbers look worse than Dwight, and that's before you get into pace differential, etc. Elgin Baylor, a 6-5 Marion type player averaged 20rpg once... it's called context people.

But just forget all the stat babble and pace adjustment, the impact is clearly different. Dwight carried some weak teams much further than Cowen's managed with some quite stacked teams, teams on which he wasn't even the best player. Some years Cowen's stacked team did a little better than Dwight, but then they also did it in a watered down NBA.

This is Dwight, and it isn't even close.

[ThaRegul8r]

While I can agree that Kareem was robbed of 73' MVP, Cowens was an elite player for 5 years or so. Kareem was just far and away the best player in the league during his tenure with the Bucks.

I was actually going to look more into that season to see how he did against the other great centers in the league. Cowens actually took it to Wilt Chamberlain, averaging 31.3 points and 20.0 rebounds to Chamberlain's 14.3 and 14.5, in one of the few instances I've found of Chamberlain getting outrebounded by an opponent of the course of a series.

It’s not often Wilt Chamberlain is both outscored and outrebounded by the opposing center in the same game but when it does happen the Los Angeles Lakers are usually in trouble.

That was the case Friday night when young Dave Cowens led the red hot Boston Celtics past the defending National Basketball Association champions 102-98. Cowens scored 31 points and pulled down 19 rebounds as Boston ran its season record to 24-3, best in the NBA, and upped its Atlantic Division lead to 2½ games over New York.

Cowens tallied 29 of his points in the first three quarters but had to play it careful in the final session during most of which time he played with five personal fouls. The three-year veteran from Florida State did finally foul out with 43 seconds left to play but not before he let the officials know how he felt over the call. In addition to his sixth personal he also collected a technical foul which will leave him $50 lighter in his wallet.

Cowens figures were even more impressive when matched against Chamberlain’s totals of 18 points and 14 rebounds.
(Times-Union, Dec 16, 1972)

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Dave Cowens scored 34 points and grabbed 19 rebounds in leading Boston to a 119-111 victory over Los Angeles Friday night as the Celtics swept their four-game National Basketball Association season series with the Lakers.

It was the Celtics’ sixth straight victory and 14th in their last 15 games.

Cowens dominated the Lakers’ Wilt Chamberlain in the second half as the Celtics had the Lakers down by 14 points three times in the third quarter and by 17 points four times in the fourth quarter.

Los Angeles clawed back to 115-109 with a minute and a half to play.

West Scores 28

The Lakers were led in scoring by Jerry West with 28 points and Gail Goodrich with 25 while John Havlicek scored 24 points for Boston, 16 in the second half.

Chamberlain had 11 points for the Lakers and 13 rebounds.

Cowens outscored Chamberlain 16 to 7 and outrebounded him 10 to four in the second half as the Celtics ran away with what started as a seemingly close game.
(The Press Courier, Mar 10, 1973.)

The Lakers also did not want to face the Celtics in the NBA Finals, but were pulling for the Knicks.

Coach Bill Sharman of the NBA champion Los Angeles Lakers is taking a serious look ahead at the post-season playoffs—and can’t be blamed for being somewhat pessimistic if it means facing Boston.

The Celtics, owner of the NBA’s best record this season with a 58-13 mark, beat the Lakers for the fourth time this season in the two team’s last regular meeting Friday night, 119-111.

It was versatile Dave Cowens with 34 points this time who led the Celtics to their sixth straight victory. He hit 16 of 28 field goal attempts, 12 of the baskets coming from ten feet out or more.

Cowens, who says he likes to play against the Lakers because Wilt Chamberlain never comes out to guard him, overshadowed the Los Angeles center who only scored 13 points.

In addition, Cowens came up with 19 rebounds.
(Times Union, Mar 10, 1973)

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The defending champion Los Angeles Lakers got their wish when the New York Knicks scratched their way into the National Basketball Association championships—but things could be different from last year.

Los Angeles and New York open the best-of-seven playoff finals Tuesday night at 11 p.m., EDT, before a capacity crowd of 17,505 at the Forum with the Lakers hoping to duplicate their victory of 1972.

They beat the Knicks four games to one to capture their first title since moving to Los Angeles from Minneapolis in 1960. And they hoped the Boston Celtics wouldn’t win in the East this time.

During the regular season, the Celtics had a 4-0 edge over the defending champions, who were 2-2 against New York.

Immediately after the Lakers beat the Golden State Warriors 4-1 in their Western playoff series, the Los Angeles players were virtually unanimous in wanting New York to beat Boston.

Forward Jim McMillian had an additional reason. He hails from New York and wants to play before his hometown fans.

“They wanted us, now they’ve got us,” declared Walt Frazier after the Knicks surprised the Celtics in Boston and won the deciding game 94-78 Sunday with an amazing defensive effort.

When that score was announced at the Forum during the USA-USSR game, a roar of approval went up from the partisan crowd, which fully realized the Lakers would be favorites against New York and underdogs against Boston.

Bookmakers in Nevada, where gambling is legal, rated the Lakers 4½ points over the Knicks in the opening game. The Reno Turf Club made the Western champs 17-10 favorites to win the series and Harrah’s Tahoe rated the Lakers 8-5.

That piqued my curiosity, so I'm going to see how Cowens did that season against the other elite centers in the game.

[GilmoreFan]

For the love of... you do understand Wilt was 36 years old in 1973, and it was his last season in the NBA!? I mean, why not just look up who out rebounded 36 year old Shaq in a series once...

[ThaRegul8r]

For the love of... you do understand Wilt was 36 years old in 1973, and it was his last season in the NBA!? I mean, why not just look up who out rebounded 36 year old Shaq in a series once...

A 36-year-old Shaq averaged 8.4 rebounds a game in 30 minutes. A 36-year-old Wilt averaged a league-leading 18.6 rebounds a game in 43.2, playing all 82 games. How are the two even remotely similar in any way, other than the fact they both were still playing in the league at the same age? (Notwithstanding the fact that he was the reigning Defensive Player of the Year had such an accolade existed then, his defense was key in the regular season and during the Lakers' record 33-game winning streak and his defense of league MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the Western Conference Finals was crucial to the Lakers advancing to the Finals. If you don't know the difference between the two at the same age, then you need to brush up on your NBA history then come back.)

EDIT: And calm down. It isn't a slam on Wilt. I was looking into the season, found out something I wasn't aware of, and am curious as to how Cowens did against the other great centers. If he stepped his game up, then maybe there's more to the season than people normally give Cowens credit for. If there is, it should be brought to light.

[GilmoreFan]

If I say "someone could out-score Jordan" it implies something significant. If I really meant Jordan on the Wizards, then I've left out some important context there. But wow, Cowens could outrebound a 36 year old, in an era of inflated stats. Give him a cookie.

Here's what I see. Cowens got to the Celtics in 71 in a very watered down NBA (because of the ABA), and the team won 44 games, despite being stacked full of talent. They did pick up of course, and had 5 seasons of 50 wins or more (sometimes much more), winning 2 titles during a very, very weak period in the NBA.

Then the ABA merges back with the NBA, and here's how the same Celtics teams did:
* 44 wins in 77
* 32 wins in 78
* 29 wins in 79
Then Larry Bird joins the team in 1980, and Cowens has his last (injury filled) season as a Celtic, where he was a role player.

Bear in mind, Cowens was only 28 in the 77 season, so he was still in his prime. Now of course, there were other factors too. Havlicek was getting old for instance, and Cowens missed 30 games in 77 (the best of the 3 seasons), but all that tells me is that the team was alot more dependent on what Havlicek and others did than it was on Cowens, and guess what, that's the majority feeling too. Cowens impact was not "Dwight like" where he was single handedly propelling mediocre teams to 60 win seasons and finals appearances, he had deep and good teams, and probably under-performed with them.

Even there titles are pretty unimpressive historically. They're winning after Wilt, West and Russell have left the NBA, after the Knicks lost Willis Reed as a player and lost alot of their talent, after Oscar was washed out and couldn't give Kareem the support he desperately needed anymore (and Kareem still almost won, despite alot of the refs really hating him at the time), and the teams they were beating were guys like the Chones Cavs, the McAdoo Braves, and the 76 Suns (who with referees who weren't documented crooks would probably have won!)

[ThaRegul8r]

If I say "someone could out-score Jordan" it implies something significant. If I really meant Jordan on the Wizards, then I've left out some important context there.

Last I checked, Wizards Jordan didn't win any scoring titles, did he?

At least come up with some relevant parallels. You're 0-for-2.

(On an aside, what great centers is Dwight competing against, again? I mean, Cowens was competing against Kareem, Wilt, Thurmond, Unseld, Lanier...who's Dwight's positional competition?)

And I find it ironic that a guy with the handle "GilmoreFan" is attempting to discredit a guy whose career began one year before the player in his name, who played in the same era. You say he played in a watered down NBA, and others say Gilmore played in an inferior league. So how are you two any different? You're just on opposite sides of the fence because you have different agendas.

[GilmoreFan]

And 73 Wilt posted the 2nd lowest rebound total of his career, as many as 9 rebounds less than his career best. This is important information. The fact Wilt was 36 and not as good as he used to be by along way is also useful information.

It's not meant to be exactly the same, it's simply that you've missed some pretty important context there. Though if I was going to be literal minded, it's still a very close parallel anyhow, because Jordan in his first year back with the Wizards scored 22, which is 40% lower than his peak of 37ppg, and Wilt in 73 rebounded 33% less than his peak. The implication would be just as misleading without context.

But even were we to put all that aside, you're looking at a handful of (regular season) games and trying to use that as a substitute for a holistic and contextual analysis of what Cowens did, which as I pointed out above is suggestive of a player much less valuable than Dwight. They call them averages for a reason, because picking out a favourable sample (against an old man on his last legs and totally worn out) probably isn't the best way to get to the heart of what Cowens was worth.

[ThaRegul8r]

And 73 Wilt posted the 2nd lowest rebound total of his career, as many as 9 rebounds less than his career best. This is important information. The fact Wilt was 36 and not as good as he used to be by along way is also useful information.

It's not meant to be exactly the same, it's simply that you've missed some pretty important context there. Though if I was going to be literal minded, it's still a very close parallel anyhow, because Jordan in his first year back with the Wizards scored 22, which is 40% lower than his peak of 37ppg, and Wilt in 73 rebounded 33% less than his peak. The implication would be just as misleading without context.

'73 Wilt was still the best rebounder and defensive player in the league. And if you're talking about lower than his career best, you have to consider pace as well. I'll run TrueLAfan's formula to find out his estimated rebound rate for the season. And no, it is not a close parallel, because Wizards Jordan was not the best scorer in the league, unlike Chamberlain with rebounding. And, another pertinent fact you neglected to mention, Wizards Jordan came back after a three year retirement. But that's not relevant, right? Continuing to push this analogy is ridiculous because it's nothing alike.

But even were we to put all that aside, you're looking at a handful of (regular season) games and trying to use that as a substitute for a holistic and contextual analysis of what Cowens did

No, I'm not. I said I noticed how he performed against the best defensive player in the league, and said that it piqued my curiosity and that I was going to look more into the season. Or maybe you missed that. After happening across those games I specifically said I was going to gather more information. Do not misrepresent me. I hate when people do that.

[GilmoreFan]

It wasn't meant to be a close parallel, or a parallel at all. It's an analogy, in that both comparisons are misleading. Yet you persist in misunderstanding. Hey, if we need to go into more depth, maybe we should use per36 minute numbers, in which case it's even closer as a %, or the average scoring and rbd% for those years... or maybe we don't need to because it's a loose analogy about how what you wrote was misleading.

Sure, Wilt was still a good rebounder and defender, but not like he used to be. Which is why saying "he put up big #'s against WILT!" is misleading, because this was the worst possible incarnation of Wilt for him to do it, and because you're using an absurdly small sample size of games (meaningless regular season games at that).

But by all means look further, and you notice the stuff I pointed out already, all of which suggests Cowens wasn't as valuable as suggested. That's why basing your opinion off some homeristic local newspaper articles is a ridiculous way of evaluating things.

[ThaRegul8r]

But by all means look further, and you notice the stuff I pointed out already, all of which suggests Cowens wasn't as valuable as suggested. That's why basing your opinion off some homeristic local newspaper articles is a ridiculous way of evaluating things.

I haven't even expressed any opinion. I said, "huh, didn't know that; I'm curious now, I'll look more into it."

Yet another fail. You're on a roll here.

[GilmoreFan]

Then you wasted all of our time by posting all that stuff when it's largely irrelevant. Again. Maybe next time you can do some research first, realise the handful of newspaper articles you found isn't very helpful to the overall discussion, and just save us the trouble and not post them without context. I'd certainly recommend not posting misleading remarks like "he did such and such against WILT!!!" without the necessary context for said remark.

[ThaRegul8r]

Then you wasted all of our time by posting all that stuff when it's largely irrelevant.

You are not obligated to read, nor respond to, anything I post. You wasted your own time. Feel free to ignore me if you wish, as I don't particularly care.