RealGM Top 100 List #17

[Fencer reregistered]

V: Pettit
N: Pippen


What's the argument for Lebron over Pettit? (I may go back and change my vote later.)

Are your votes actually being counted? If not, then great care in making them may be a bit beside the point.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1127410&start=90#p28684212 suggest they're not.

[Sedale Threatt]

Lighten up, Francis.

No kidding. Even I got that one.

[penbeast0]

LeBron v. Pettit . . . the basic argument is that while Pettit was one of the top 6 players in the league his entire career, the 50s where he was #1 were one of those interregnum periods between the all time greats and he was easily eclipsed by Russell then Wilt. Whereas LeBron by his second year quickly rose to be competitive for the best player in the league and has probably been the best player for the last 4 years with Duncan slipping back a bit.


As for the length of his career being an issue, it is for me with Wade (really only 5 full seasons) but by the time you have put together 8 full-time seasons, I think you have established enough of a benchmark to have a pretty good idea of just how great you are. Even if next year he is injured and slides into being a mediocre player like post injury Grant Hill for another 5 years, I am comfortable with the greatness of his career arc at 8 seasons. Thus I put LeBron over the 5 season types like McAdoo, Moncrief, and Wade

(and I won't even vote for Bill Walton for a long long time if ever since his 1 season of greatness was surrounded by 7 seasons where every year his team would build around the possibility of his return and he would break down and the team would go into the toilet . . . so 1 year of carrying the team to greatness and 7 years of destroying the team's hopes.)

[Fencer reregistered]

I find it odd that Barry and Baylor are on the nominee list, but not Havlicek and Pippen, especially since Barry and Havlicek tied for most nominations ahead of Baylor about 5 ballots ago.

That said, if we do get all of them on the list, they may eventually split selection votes just as they are splitting nominating votes now.

[Laimbeer]

LeBron v. Pettit . . . the basic argument is that while Pettit was one of the top 6 players in the league his entire career, the 50s where he was #1 were one of those interregnum periods between the all time greats and he was easily eclipsed by Russell then Wilt. Whereas LeBron by his second year quickly rose to be competitive for the best player in the league and has probably been the best player for the last 4 years with Duncan slipping back a bit.

So would LeBron hold that distinction if Wilt and Russell were around?

[Sedale Threatt]

LeBron's shorter career doesn't even register with me. He's pretty clearly established himself as one of the best players ever, and he's only going to work his way higher.

That said, I highly doubt I'm going to put him ahead of Dirk. Fully acknowledge that I'm being influenced by the championship, and you know what? I don't care. That was spectacular. I also value how Dirk's game is so much more malleable, that his game as a 7-foot shooter fits with just about any personnel you could assemble.

LeBron, obviously, brings a ton to the table, too. But it could be argued that as a ball-dominant, iso-oriented player, his approach isn't always conducive to team play in the way that Dirk's is. Hard to argue with what he did in Cleveland, lifting a pretty average cast way beyond the sum of its parts. But for all his skills and talents, his game seems more one-dimensional after watching him struggle to assimilate with Wade.

I can't see anyone having to play the "my-turn, your-turn" game with Dirk. He's just that unique.

And then, there's that bad taste in my mouth after watching him either fold or quit or disappear or whatever the past two years with championships within his reach.

And Barkley...having a tough time putting him with these two. Phenomenal player, phenomenal peak. But the reality that he's fundamentally flawed on the defensive end, by nature of his lack of size at the position, in addition to the overwhelming personality -- which I think can be just as detrimental as positive at times -- and the conditioning/injury woes, eliminates him for me.

[Laimbeer]

I think I may take Bob Pettit here:

VOTE: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

Pettit won 2 league mvp's, won a title as well, led in PER 4x and win shares 1x, brought the Hawks there only title in NBA History and managed to even beat the Celtics in the finals.

I'm with you. Look at Pettit's MVP finishes is a great nine year run.

1,2,4,1,3,2,6,4,4

Hondo is tumbling big time, which I have to say isn't surprising to me. But where he and Isiah end up may be a couple more WTF moments.

VOTE: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

[Sedale Threatt]

Pettit was truly great. He just doesn't have the advocate other guys have had, and that matters in a project like this. With people this smart, they can find a way to use numbers to make their case. Which is why you see certain guys climbing, and others falling.

Frankly, I might put him over Barkley. Not sure if those measures are the way to go, though. Outside of championships -- which is big, especially considering Pettit's game against Russell's Celtics -- LeBron pretty much is even or better in all of them.

[Laimbeer]

That said, I highly doubt I'm going to put him ahead of Dirk. Fully acknowledge that I'm being influenced by the championship, and you know what? I don't care. That was spectacular. I also value how Dirk's game is so much more malleable, that his game as a 7-foot shooter fits with just about any personnel you could assemble.

I'm a bigger title whore than anybody, but he's probably getting a little too much bounce because it just happened.

[Fencer reregistered]

That said, I highly doubt I'm going to put him ahead of Dirk. Fully acknowledge that I'm being influenced by the championship, and you know what? I don't care. That was spectacular. I also value how Dirk's game is so much more malleable, that his game as a 7-foot shooter fits with just about any personnel you could assemble.

I'm a bigger title whore than anybody, but he's probably getting a little too much bounce because it just happened.

Probably not. LeBron proved that he's a pretty bad on-court thinker, something that people sometimes forget because of his great physical quickness and passing ability.

On the other hand, the quitting against Boston in 2009 got huge play because of the publicity around the upcoming "Decision". And in all honesty, we don't know how injured he was.

[pancakes3]

i respect lebron, but i hate the hell out of him. i hate his game, i hate his attitude, and i hate how he's perfectly justifiable as one of the top 20 players of all time already.

that said, why has it been a fortnight since Baylor's name was even discussed? the guy had to split his time between the army reserve and travelling for bball in the 60's. he literally showed up, messed around, and ended up with a triple double. despite all of that he set insane scoring and rebounding numbers, even pace adjusted. to be able to score the way he did, rebound at the size that he was, and make plays as a true SF instead of a ball-pounding "point forward" is incredible.

sure there's a lack of MVP's but a lot of people would be MVP-less in a Wilt/Russ era. 10x all-nba 1st team and 7 finals appearances makes him officially the best player to never win a ring in my book.

vote: Baylor
nominate: Havlicek

[colts18]

I'm considering Dirk here. Just looking at his, I'm not even sure that Larry Bird is a better player than Dirk. You can make a case for Dirk over Bird.

[JordansBulls]

I'm considering Dirk here. Just looking at his, I'm not even sure that Larry Bird is a better player than Dirk. You can make a case for Dirk over Bird.

If you compared there numbers it would sure seem that way.

If you compare:

In the regular season for PER:
Dirk's is 23.73 #15 while Bird's is 23.50 #19

In the playoffs for PER
Dirk is at 24.75 #7 while Bird is a at 21.41 #27

7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
27. Larry Bird* 21.41




In the season for WS/PER 48
Dirk is #12 while Bird is #19

12. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2137
19. Larry Bird* 0.2032


In the playoffs Dirk is #5 in WS/PER 48 while Bird is #35

5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2067
35. Larry Bird* 0.1731

[colts18]

I'm considering Dirk here. Just looking at his, I'm not even sure that Larry Bird is a better player than Dirk. You can make a case for Dirk over Bird.

If you compared there numbers it would sure seem that way.

If you compare:

In the regular season for PER:
Dirk's is 23.73 #15 while Bird's is 23.50 #19

In the playoffs for PER
Dirk is at 24.75 #7 while Bird is a at 21.41 #27

7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
27. Larry Bird* 21.41




In the season for WS/PER 48
Dirk is #12 while Bird is #19

12. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2137
19. Larry Bird* 0.2032


In the playoffs Dirk is #5 in WS/PER 48 while Bird is #35

5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2067
35. Larry Bird* 0.1731

Not only that but Bird had more playoff failures than Dirk.

[NO-KG-AI]

Give me a break.

[ElGee]

vote: LeBron James
nominate: Steve Nash

@Sedale - It was one year, and they played 3 on 5 most of the year and were a shade from the title. Give it some time, give it some perspective...

You are fair to criticize the FInals, whether it was mental or physical or both (I allege a combination, since LeBron insinuated so much after the series.) The Boston thing, I've said in the 2010 POY thread, is so overblown at this point it reads as comical to me. They probably weren't beating the Celtics anyway, EVEN if he went nuclear, and the *single* game in question (G5) they lost by...30 points?

@Fencer - LeBron's defense was quite good in 2008 IMO. That's why I regarded him highly (DREB included). It was better in 2009, but got big attention as a "major improvement" bc of chase-down blocks and sound bites from "the Olympic Experience." Similar/comparable in 2010 and then even better in 2011 from what I've seen/tracked. His 2011 defense was stunning to me. That's my 2 cents there...

[Fencer reregistered]

@Fencer - LeBron's defense was quite good in 2008 IMO. That's why I regarded him highly (DREB included). It was better in 2009, but got big attention as a "major improvement" bc of chase-down blocks and sound bites from "the Olympic Experience." Similar/comparable in 2010 and then even better in 2011 from what I've seen/tracked. His 2011 defense was stunning to me. That's my 2 cents there...

Fair enough. As a Celtic fan, I've noted that he's gotten a LOT more effective on Pierce over that time frame, in the seemingly annual playoff series -- but part of that is Pierce.

[penbeast0]

i respect lebron, but i hate the hell out of him. i hate his game, i hate his attitude, and i hate how he's perfectly justifiable as one of the top 20 players of all time already.

that said, why has it been a fortnight since Baylor's name was even discussed? the guy had to split his time between the army reserve and travelling for bball in the 60's. he literally showed up, messed around, and ended up with a triple double. despite all of that he set insane scoring and rebounding numbers, even pace adjusted. to be able to score the way he did, rebound at the size that he was, and make plays as a true SF instead of a ball-pounding "point forward" is incredible.

sure there's a lack of MVP's but a lot of people would be MVP-less in a Wilt/Russ era. 10x all-nba 1st team and 7 finals appearances makes him officially the best player to never win a ring in my book.

vote: Baylor
nominate: Havlicek

Probably because Pettit, who is very comparable to Baylor, isn't in yet. Pettit was more efficient even though he started playing earlier in the less efficient era than Baylor, he was a better rebounder, he was all-nba just as often, had a better defensive rep, and won a title with one of the more spectacular performances in NBA history though his overall team was not as good as Baylor's year in and year out (though Cliff Hagan was good for a lot shorter time than Jerry West). Pettit should go in before Baylor.

[therealbig3]

It comes down to Barkley vs Dirk for me, because there is a 4 year difference in terms of prime years between Dirk/Barkley and LeBron, and that's a pretty big difference. His peak doesn't make up for that imo, especially when you consider that Dirk and Barkley had pretty high peaks themselves.

I think it's almost a matter of preference between Dirk and Barkley, but I Barkley has superior longevity as of now, and he's a more dynamic offensive player imo. And unlike someone like David Robinson, Barkley's play really didn't suffer that much between regular season and playoffs. His career playoff numbers are very comparable to Dirk's actually.

Vote: Barkley
Nominate: Pippen

Pippen is getting overlooked a bit imo. Keep in mind that he didn't have a chance to be the 1st option for his entire career or for the majority of his career...he had 1 full year to prove himself, and the team won 55 games and made it within one game of the Conference Finals. The defense actually got better once Jordan left, because him and Grant stepped up. I honestly think that Pippen's defensive impact was comparable to a guy like Ewing's.

And offensively, he was pretty good. He wasn't all-time great, obviously, but he was kind of a poor man's LeBron. Also, he played in the triangle offense that limited assists, and he played with Jordan, who also split time as the primary playmaker as well. Even then, Pippen averaged the most apg for any player that played in the triangle offense, at 7.0 apg in 92.

[Wavy Q]

I think I may take Bob Pettit here:

VOTE: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

Pettit won 2 league mvp's, won a title as well, led in PER 4x and win shares 1x, brought the Hawks there only title in NBA History and managed to even beat the Celtics in the finals.

I'm with you. Look at Pettit's MVP finishes is a great nine year run.

1,2,4,1,3,2,6,4,4

Hondo is tumbling big time, which I have to say isn't surprising to me. But where he and Isiah end up may be a couple more WTF moments.

VOTE: Bob Pettit
Nominate: Isiah Thomas

I'll go with this as well, except my nomination will be John Stockton