Kobe Bryant top 10 player of all-time?

[WillC]

I am fascinated by articles that attempt to rank the best players in NBA (and ABA) history. Some authors are too easily swayed by eye-catching statistics. Other authors give too much credit to players who won championships (perhaps riding the coattails of their superstar teammates). Meanwhile, some authors abandon all obvious indicators and simply go with their heart. In my opinion, all three measures are valid and should be combined together.

Indeed, that is exactly what I have attempted to do here. I have combined the rankings from nine different publications (including – but not limited to – Bill Simmons’ ‘Book of Basketball’, Slam magazine’s ‘Top 500’, Elliot Kalb’s ‘Who’s Better Who’s Best in Basketball?’ and Sport magazine’s 50th anniversary rankings) to create a master list.

Some of the rankings were written a few years ago and, as a result, active players were ranked too low. To accommodate for this, I have adjusted the rankings of active players accordingly (by simply weighting them more towards the most recent rankings).

I have included the major awards won by each player, their career statistics along with revealing quotes (admittedly with a generous dose of hyperbole) from players and well-respected basketball authors.

The results are fascinating and, in my opinion, the most accurate rankings I have seen. However, I am amazed that some people think Kobe is underrated at number 10 whereas other people think that he should crack the top 10. I'm interested to hear what Lakers fan thinks - does he deserve to be ahead of Shaq? West? Magic?!

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co ... story.html

01 – Michael Jordan
Awards: 6 x NBA champion, 5 x Regular Season MVP, 6 x Finals MVP, 10 x All-NBA 1st Team, 14 x All-Star, 1 x Defensive Player of the Year, 9 x All-Defensive 1st Team, Rookie of the Year
Numbers: 30.1ppg, 6.2rpg, 5.3apg, 2.3spg
Words: “That was God disguised as Michael Jordan” (Larry Bird after Jordan scored an NBA record 63 points in the playoffs against the Celtics).

02 – Bill Russell
Awards: 11 x NBA champion, 5 x Regular Season MVP, 3 x All-NBA 1st Team, 12 x All-Star
Numbers: 15.1ppg, 22.5rpg, 4.3apg, .440 FG%
Words: “Each year the Finals MVP is given to an exceptional, extraordinary player based on his performance on the grandest stage in all of basketball, the Finals. Who better to name this prestigious award for than one of the greatest players of all time and the ultimate champion?” (David Stern).

03 – Wilt Chamberlain
Awards: 2 x NBA champion, 4 x Regular Season MVP, 1 x Finals MVP, 7 x All-NBA 1st Team, 13 x All-Star, Rookie of the Year
Numbers: 30.1ppg, 22.9rpg, 4.4apg, .540 FG%
Words: “He’s like T-Rex, so big and god-awful, stomping through his world as other, thunderstruck creatures seek shelter from his wrath” (Michael Bradley).

04 – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Awards: 6 x NBA champion, 6 x Regular Season MVP, 2 x Finals MVP, 10 x All-NBA 1st Team, 19 x All-Star, 5 x All-Defensive 1st Team, Rookie of the Year
Numbers: 24.6ppg, 11.2rpg, 3.6apg, .559 FG%
Words: “He developed the skyhook after dunking was banned in college to neutralize him. Instead, the ban helped lead to the perfection of the greatest shot the game has ever seen” (Peter Vecsey).

05 – Magic Johnson
Awards: 5 x NBA champion, 3 x Regular Season MVP, 3 x Finals MVP, 9 x All-NBA 1st Team, 12 x All-Star
Numbers: 19.5ppg, 7.2rpg, 11.2apg, 1.9spg
Words: “There have been times when he has thrown passes and I wasn’t sure where he was going. Then one of our guys catches the ball and scores and I run back up the floor convinced that he must’ve thrown it through somebody” (Michael Cooper).

06 – Larry Bird
Awards: 3 x NBA champion, 3 x Regular Season MVP, 2 x Finals MVP, 9 x All-NBA 1st Team, 12 x All-Star, Rookie of the Year
Numbers: 24.3ppg, 10.0rpg, 6.3apg, 1.7spg
Words: “He was always going to go back at you. It may be scoring, it may be a pass, it may be a rebound – but he was going to find a way to beat you” (Dominique Wilkins).

07 – Shaquille O’Neal
Awards: 4 x NBA champion, 1 x Regular Season MVP, 3 x Finals MVP, 8 x All-NBA 1st Team, 15 x All-Star, Rookie of the Year
Numbers: 24.7ppg, 11.2rpg, 2.6apg, .582 FG%
Words: “All the greats are blessed with something… and Shaq – along with his criminally underrated athleticism, passing ability and court vision – has mass. Hate if you want, but the Daddy has taken utmost advantage of his gift, and the results are undeniable” (Ryan Jones).

08 – Tim Duncan
Awards: 4 x NBA champion, 2 x Regular Season MVP, 3 x Finals MVP, 9 x All-NBA 1st Team, 13 x All-Star, 8 x All-Defensive 1st Team, Rookie of the Year
Numbers: 21.4ppg, 11.7rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
Words: “He excelled as one of the few big guys polished enough to punish players down low and talented enough to guard quicker players on the other end. He made everyone else better and came through when it mattered” (Bill Simmons).

09 – Oscar Robertson
Awards: 1 x NBA champion, 1 x Regular Season MVP, 9 x All-NBA 1st Team, 12 x All-Star, Rookie of the Year
Numbers: 25.7ppg, 7.5rpg, 9.5apg, .838 FT%
Words: “He was the best all-around player ever. He was a great rebounder, defensive player… best at running a team. Triple doubles, you name it, he could do it” (Tiny Archibald).

10 – Kobe Bryant
Awards: 5 x NBA champion, 1 x Regular Season MVP, 2 x Finals MVP, 9 x All-NBA 1st Team, 13 x All-Star, 9 x All-Defensive 1st Team
Numbers: 25.1ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.6apg, 1.5spg
Words: “There's no better player that I've ever seen than him... He's the greatest Laker player that we have ever seen” (Jerry West).

Remainder of the top 100 at the following link: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co ... story.html

[tkb]

My personal top 10 looks about this (I change my preferences from time to time, and still haven't really decided on 1 and 2 as I keep changing MJ and KAJ):

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O´Neal
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

Next 5 (not ordered): Jerry West, Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson, George Mikan

So, in my opinion Kobe is top 10. I could see a conservative argument where he'd be about 12th-13th, but not any lower than that.

[WillC]

That's a solid top 10, tkb.

However, what's your argument for putting Russell below Chamberlain? I'm always curious about that one. Do you value statistics more than success?

[Rox_Nix_Nox]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Shaquille O’Neal
8. Bill Russell
9. Larry Bird
10. Jerry West

[WillC]

I've never seen Russell anywhere near 8th before. I assume you're just looking at his statistics rather than his championships etc.

[Imadogg]

I believe Kobe is top 10, yes. I don't understand anyone that hates on Kobe for whatever reason then puts West above him (besides him being Logo). I can't put Oscar above Kobe. Arguments can be made for the top 8 in the OP's, along with Hakeem who I hold in very high regard due to how versatile he was, a near perfect offense and defense player who put a team on his back to win titles. The names on my top 10 list would be the same as tkb's.

[BEazy]

Nice topic WillC.

My top 10 of all time:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlin
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan

It's amazing that so many Laker legends are on this list! I love it! haha.

[Blackfyre]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Bill Russell
5. Shaquille O'neal
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

HM: Oscar, West, Moses, Dr J.

[WillC]

Nice topic WillC.

My top 10 of all time:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlin
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan

It's amazing that so many Laker legends are on this list! I love it! haha.

Thanks for the kind words!

I visited LA earlier this year to go to the All-Star Game (which you can read about here: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co ... ution.html). I love the city of LA and you're right, the Lakers have had some truly awesome players of the year. Wilt, Kobe, West, Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Goodrich, etc.

I'm really interested to hear if Lakers fans think Kobe is better than Magic? From your list, I can see that you do, but is that the consensus?

[Optms]

No, its not consensus. Magic is higher on the food chain. Therefore he'd eat Kobe.

[ChampagnePapa]

It really depends on how you qualify "top 10" to put a list together but Kobe will definitely be in the top 10 and can easily be argued to already be in there. Bias aside, you can't call Kobe's career better than some of these guys to this point (MJ, Kareem, few others) but at the same time I wouldn't agree that guys like Duncan would be ahead of him. Duncan was also fortunate to start with a team with D Rob (although Timmy was a major part of their success).

Although these days, there's an even stronger bias towards current events, which is why a lot of these lists have more current players like Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, etc. as opposed to older ones like Oscar and why arguments arise about Wilt, Kareem, Russell, West, etc. To me the argument for greatest all time would come down to domination on the court. A great player can overcome a less than stellar roster to win a title but you can't just dismiss those with few or no titles. Russell may have all those rings, but he was on a LOADED Celtic team that put this Heat roster to shame. Russell did dominate games on D but not so much on offense. To me, that puts MJ on another planet and I could argue that Shaq is a clean 2. Shaq in his prime and Hakeem in his are two of the most dominating players I've ever seen and I don't see anyone even close in today's young NBA talent. I wasn't around to watch Wilt or Kareem's prime to actually put a list together objectively so I would rather not. But I do know that Magic, MJ, Shaq and Hakeem would be on that list. (Has anyone looked that those Rockets' rosters? Hakeem and a bunch of role players.)

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm really interested to hear if Lakers fans think Kobe is better than Magic? From your list, I can see that you do, but is that the consensus?

Not for this Laker fan. Kobe's had a phenomenal career, but he's no Magic Johnson.

[Sedale Threatt]

All the time I've spent on the player comparison board have really shaped my opinion on Bill Russell. There was a time when I never would have taken him over Wilt Chamberlain. Now, after reading so many nuanced arguments, I don't see how you can't. Russell was just special, with probably the most unique impact in NBA history.

People don't even appreciate defense much today, after it's been emphasized like never before, let alone back in the run-and-gun 60s. Yet Russell was recognized with five MVPs, in the same era as the most dominant statistical player in history.

Yes, those teams had a ton of talent, in addition to perhaps the best GM/coach in history. But like I said before, once you look at the impact -- how the Celtics always won when they were supposed to, and a couple of times when they shouldn't, how they were not just great defensively, but historically dominant, and head and shoulders better than their peers -- it becomes pretty tough to ignore.

And the one constant was Bill Russell.

[Sedale Threatt]

BTW, I'm close to tkb with a few changes.

1. Jordan
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Johnson
5. Chamberlain
6. O'Neal
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Olajuwon
10. Bryant

[Rox_Nix_Nox]

I don't know, I didn't include duncan. Personally I'd take Hakeem Olajuwon over him, and a guy like Jerry West had 5x the career of a tim duncan.

& I without hesitation put Kobe ahead of bird.

[WillC]

Jerry West had 5x the career of a tim duncan.

That's simply not true.

Go look at my article again - look at Duncan's list of achievements - and tell me how West had 5 times the career of Tim Duncan.

[Sedale Threatt]

...and a guy like Jerry West had 5x the career of a tim duncan.

How do you figure that? Duncan went toe-to-toe with arguably the most dominant player in history, winning multiple MVPs and anchoring four championship teams. I imagine the list of guys who have won more than one MVP, Finals MVP and championship. Not to mention the fact that Duncan, as a dominant force on both ends -- perennial 20/10, always anchored elite defenses -- was simply a better player.

[Rox_Nix_Nox]

I would take Jerry West every time. Epically against duncan, whom is a step below Hakeem Olajuwon. I love Jerry West, the man was a perfectionist obsessed with the game. Had he won multiple championships it would be a no argument. Had malone won some that, (duncan v. malone) would be no argument.

Duncan & Robinson went toe-to-toe with arguably the most dominant player in history

[Sedale Threatt]

Many players would have their reps substantially improved with a couple of championships. And neither West nor Malone dominated on both ends of the court like Duncan did. Few have.

[WillC]

Had he won multiple championships it would be a no argument.

But he didn't.

So how can you say he had 5 times the career of Tim Duncan?