RealGM Top 100 List #17

[Sedale Threatt]

Yeah, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. I never bought the ball-dominant argument until this year.

Granted, a lot of the overlap with James and Wade is unavoidable. But it was really eye-opening to me how ineffective he could be at times unless he had the ball, with the Finals being a case example.

Goodness, the guy's almost a physical clone of Karl Malone, with more quickness and explosiveness, and he was unable to even make a basic adjustment by posting up more.

If ElGee is going to hold "offensive awkwardness" against Kareem, or however it was that he termed it, what would you call the inability to adjust one's game, in a way he's entirely capable of doing, in order to blend in better? The whole stand-around-on-the-perimeter-until-I-can-touch-the-ball-again move is pretty lame.

That's a pretty substantial edge in Nowitzki's favor, in my opinion. There is virtually no lineup you could stick him in that he wouldn't be able to function at an optimal level.

[Fencer reregistered]

Yeah, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. I never bought the ball-dominant argument until this year.

Granted, a lot of the overlap with James and Wade is unavoidable. But it was really eye-opening to me how ineffective he could be at times unless he had the ball, with the Finals being a case example.

Goodness, the guy's almost a physical clone of Karl Malone, with more quickness and explosiveness, and he was unable to even make a significant adjustment by posting up more.

If ElGee is going to hold "offensive awkwardness" against Kareem, or however it was that he termed it, what would you call the inability to adjust one's game in order to blend in better. The whole stand-around-on-the-perimeter-until-I-can-touch-the-ball-again move is pretty lame.

That's a pretty substantial edge in Nowitzki's favor, in my opinion. There is virtually no lineup you could stick him in that he wouldn't be able to function at an optimal level.

If you're making the "Why isn't he a yet better player than he is?" argument against LeBron, you have a point, because in this case you're talking about poor basketball decision-making. If he played differently, he'd be more effective. I favor guys who either have versatile games, or else happen to have a style that blends well into most situations.

[34Dayz]

Bailed out on at least two teams imo, though I agree with him on wanting to leave Philly. They made some awful, awful moves during his time there.

My policy is to give anybody one mulligan on wanting to leave a team. They're not slaves. More than one and they're probably malcontents, however, although special considerations may apply. Major examples of such mulligans are each of Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem to LA, and LeBron to Miami.

Feuds with teammates, however, can be very bad, in that they strongly detract from winning, and we're ultimately evaluating guys on how much they help their teams win.

What about if a player plays the majority of his "useful" career on 2 or 3 teams and then go's ring hunting once he has declined to the point where he doesnt offer much for a team anymore or he really isnt the same player he was for the majority of his Career.

For instance I felt after 06 Shaq was no longer "Shaq" like Wizards MJ you may see flashes of the player he used to be but thats all "Jordan has a 40-50 points game on the Wizards" "Shaq had a 40-50 Point game on the Suns" but it was obvious they couldn't give you anywhere near the same impact or productionthey had earlier in their careers.

So I dont really consider Shaq a "Team Hopper" or anything since he played the Majority of his Career for two teams Orl + LA and then took a pay cut to play two more good years in Miami after that I treat his time with PHX,Cleveland,Boston like I treat Wizards MJ "Never Happened.

Shaq leaving LA was because of Kobe's Ego mixed with Dumb managment and Immaturity on the big fellas part and him leaving Miami was (imo) due to frustration of him no longer being the Shaq we all knew and loved and thus turning Miami from a contender into a weak team that had little chances of contending for a title.

[JordansBulls]

Bailed out on at least two teams imo, though I agree with him on wanting to leave Philly. They made some awful, awful moves during his time there.

My policy is to give anybody one mulligan on wanting to leave a team. They're not slaves. More than one and they're probably malcontents, however, although special considerations may apply. Major examples of such mulligans are each of Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem to LA, and LeBron to Miami.

Feuds with teammates, however, can be very bad, in that they strongly detract from winning, and we're ultimately evaluating guys on how much they help their teams win.

What's Shaq's reason for leaving Orlando? That team with him in Orlando is better than the team in LA with him if he stays in Orlando from 1997-1999.

[ElGee]

Mystic, if you want to continue this email me.

[Sedale Threatt]

What you call downplaying I call having perspective. I don't radically shift my opinion on something that has 100,000 data points of evidence when I get 10 new data points. There's nothing to "downplay," unless by that you mean that I think people overreact and tend to throw out all past information and obsess over recent information. I've never said it wasn't bad, and my analysis of it is simply that. How in the world you get something non-negative from what I've said I don't know -- I just don't think there's ample evidence for people to play the ridiculous narrative cards they are playing, Tragic Johnson style.

///

And other than the armchair psychology in game 5, how is that different than what Michael Jordan went through in the first 3 games of the 93 ECF? And yes, his G4 wasn't very good. Not the disaster the box makes it out to be because his defense was quite good in that game, as well as his creation.

///

NO. That's not it AT ALL. Either I've done a horrendous job of communicating for the last year, or you are just not listening. The win/loss element is INDEPENDENT of individual player performance. Stars play a role, but it's not as big as one thinks. To *expect* James to be +33 relative to where he was in that game is ludicrous. That's germane to YOUR point about winning/losing/title shots. I don't care about the team winning when I analyze his play.

I'm saying guys have bad games here and there. Even Michael Jordan. You notice them/obsess over them more when players are in situations that can't "cover them up" with a win.

By just about all accounts, most elite players from the last 20 years have had more bad games than LeBron James. They aren't criticized and hyper-analyzed because most of them have been on better teams/in better situations. Basically, as I've written, he's a perfect storm of high-profile superstar being compared to Jordan, only he's naked all the time. He's never had a team to cover up the few times he shows up with a pimple, and it almost happened in Miami the first time that situation arose in the Finals. It WILL happen in the future if Miami adds size/depth.

But you're going way beyond merely attempting to provide perspective here. (Which I do respect, by the way.) When you constantly use phrases like "wasn't great" to describe what in fact were horrible performances, I don't see how you can draw any other conclusion than minimization.

It's like your statement: "Guys have bad games here and there."

That's the a critical point here -- those weren't bad games "here and there." They were bad games in succession, and in the case of the Finals, an entire series of them, that had a direct impact on his team squandering a pair of championship opportunities.

And again: "He's never had a team to cover up the few times he shows up with a pimple..."

We obviously have different standards, but disappearing over the final five games of a playoff series, when your team was on the verge of taking a 2-0 lead that would have made the Heat a mortal lock to win the title, way bigger than showing up with a pimple. That's like the second coming of Edward James Olmos.

Or "not very good" to describe G4, which was a total debacle to virtually anyone who watched it live, way beyond anything the numbers could ever tell us.

Or by inferring that it's somehow acceptable that a professional athlete would under perform -- in a championship series, no less -- due to physical and/or mental fatigue. To which I say again, that's about the last reason a 26-year-old should be failing.

Now, I do agree 100% with your last statement. But it hasn't happened yet, so I have no choice but to measure his career to this point as I see fit.

Hence, my vote is for Dirk Nowitzki, and my nomination is for John Havlicek.

[Laimbeer]

Anyone have a vote count handy?

[Sedale Threatt]

If you're making the "Why isn't he a yet better player than he is?" argument against LeBron, you have a point, because in this case you're talking about poor basketball decision-making. If he played differently, he'd be more effective. I favor guys who either have versatile games, or else happen to have a style that blends well into most situations.

That's the thing -- from his numbers, and the way he played in Cleveland, and he looked to me like the epitome of versatility. But that turned out to be more a product of utility than actual function.

I was just watching a game from the 91 G.S./L.A. series the other day, and the difference in Magic's game from when he first showed up to how he ended is striking. He was posting up virtually every trip down court, drawing fouls and setting up teammates from the post.

Now, LeBron obviously has a ton of time to evolve and grow, and I fully expect him to. But again, until he actually does it, we can only judge what we see.

[mysticbb]

Mystic, if you want to continue this email me.

Ok, made a comment on your blog (you might want to delete at some point ;)), because I couldn't find a better way right now. You should be able to see my e-mail adress.

[lorak]

Anyone have a vote count handy?

LJ FJS DocMJ Snakebites penbeast0 ElGee
8 Baller 24 ronnymac2 Gongxi

Dirk Dr Mufasa Fencer reregistered DavidStern An Unbiased Fan mysticbb
6 Black Feet

Pettit JordansBulls Laimbeer Jay From LA cpower
4

Barkley therealbig3 fatal9
2

Baylor pancakes3
1





Nash ElGee DocMJ DavidStern mysticbb Black Feet
7 Baller 24 fatal9

Hondo Dr Mufasa Fencer reregistered pancakes3 cpower
4

Stockton FJS Jay From LA An Unbiased Fan
3

Isiah JordansBulls Laimbeer ronnymac2
3

Gilmore penbeast0 Gongxi
2

Pippen therealbig3
1

[Baller 24]

Stockton v Hondo & Pippen, what's the reasoning for him even over those two elite SFs?

[TMACFORMVP]

Vote: Dirk Nowitzki
Nominate: John Havlicek

[Sedale Threatt]

Anyone have a vote count handy?

...

I voted for Diggler and Hondo.

[Dezmondballins3]

What's Lebron's argument over David Robinson?

[Baller 24]

Robinson very clear flaws, his playoff numbers take significant dips due to these flaws, he never learned to adapt. While other players have their clear flaws in the playoffs, their overall production in the playoffs doesn't allow them to drop off literally onto a different tier.

[Laimbeer]

Stockton v Hondo & Pippen, what's the reasoning for him even over those two elite SFs?

Not really elite as far as all-timers at this level. Both were second bananas and had great careers, though.

[Laimbeer]

Robinson very clear flaws, his playoff numbers take significant dips due to these flaws, he never learned to adapt. While other players have their clear flaws in the playoffs, their overall production in the playoffs doesn't allow them to drop off literally onto a different tier.

Yet Nash is running away with the nomination.

[therealbig3]

Robinson very clear flaws, his playoff numbers take significant dips due to these flaws, he never learned to adapt. While other players have their clear flaws in the playoffs, their overall production in the playoffs doesn't allow them to drop off literally onto a different tier.

Yet Nash is running away with the nomination.

How did Nash's production fall off? He plays better in the playoffs.

[colts18]

What's Lebron's argument over David Robinson?

Robinson basically had a 7 year prime (90-96) which is about the same as LeBron. After that he had 3 solid years from 98-00, then was close to useless offensively after that. His argument is the first 3 years with Duncan making up for LeBron's peak advantage.

[Laimbeer]

Robinson very clear flaws, his playoff numbers take significant dips due to these flaws, he never learned to adapt. While other players have their clear flaws in the playoffs, their overall production in the playoffs doesn't allow them to drop off literally onto a different tier.

Yet Nash is running away with the nomination.

How did Nash's production fall off? He plays better in the playoffs.

Never even made the finals while playing on some really good teams.